Wouldn't it be nice is there really was a God?

[alissowack]

Apparently, God needs people to know him. If no one knew of him, would he exist? He's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent: need, want.. what's the difference?

Oh...God would still exist. It's kind of like this. You don't need me to tell you who you are. You will be you regardless of who knows you or doesn't know you. Your existence is not depended on whether I find out who you are. Your life expectancy doesn't increase by how many people know you. But, if you want me to know you, you would communicate that to me.

Where and how would he exist if no one knew of him (could feel, see, hear, touch, smell the effects of his existance or was influenced by his actions)?

As a human being, you may not know me personally but my existence is still observable. Obviously, I'm typing to you and you can read what I'm typing as I'm typing thoughts that arise within myself. My existence is observable. But you don't really KNOW me. I don't need you to tell me who I am but just because you don't personally know me doesn't mean I'm not observable in some way. If I wasn't observable to you, I am to someone else. If I'm not observable at all to anyone or anything, there's a high probablity that I just don't exist.

You said yourself that god is not observable, so going by what you said, we have no clue at all as to whether he exists or not. You're just making an assumption that he exists, based on what? Because you're not observing any of his actions. And you said yourself also that we can't rest on assumptions about god so what are you really doing?

And right, if I wanted you to know me, I would tell you everything you need to know right here right now so you could get a better understanding. Maybe I would call you or even possibly come to visit you and your family so that you can know who I am. That's possible for me, even in human form and recognizing the limits I have AS a human. God, on the other hand, can do whatever he wants at any time, however he wants to do it (according to the Bible) but he isn't observable in the slightest way. And the odd part is, God WANTS you to know him. (also, according to the Bible)

Either God is hiding from us. Or he doesn't exist.

Oh how I miss the old way where I can edit and re-edit stuff. Something went terribly wrong in my last post. I was certain that I made clear where my "source" was and, unless I overlooked a post, I didn't say that God can't be observed. I was saying that observing God doesn't solidify things. And just so I don't seem one-sided, knowing the Bible backwards and forwards doesn't solidify things either.

 

[Bodhi]

Apparently, God needs people to know him. If no one knew of him, would he exist? He's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent: need, want.. what's the difference?

Oh...God would still exist. It's kind of like this. You don't need me to tell you who you are. You will be you regardless of who knows you or doesn't know you. Your existence is not depended on whether I find out who you are. Your life expectancy doesn't increase by how many people know you. But, if you want me to know you, you would communicate that to me.

Where and how would he exist if no one knew of him (could feel, see, hear, touch, smell the effects of his existance or was influenced by his actions)?

As a human being, you may not know me personally but my existence is still observable. Obviously, I'm typing to you and you can read what I'm typing as I'm typing thoughts that arise within myself. My existence is observable. But you don't really KNOW me. I don't need you to tell me who I am but just because you don't personally know me doesn't mean I'm not observable in some way. If I wasn't observable to you, I am to someone else. If I'm not observable at all to anyone or anything, there's a high probablity that I just don't exist.

You said yourself that god is not observable, so going by what you said, we have no clue at all as to whether he exists or not. You're just making an assumption that he exists, based on what? Because you're not observing any of his actions. And you said yourself also that we can't rest on assumptions about god so what are you really doing?

And right, if I wanted you to know me, I would tell you everything you need to know right here right now so you could get a better understanding. Maybe I would call you or even possibly come to visit you and your family so that you can know who I am. That's possible for me, even in human form and recognizing the limits I have AS a human. God, on the other hand, can do whatever he wants at any time, however he wants to do it (according to the Bible) but he isn't observable in the slightest way. And the odd part is, God WANTS you to know him. (also, according to the Bible)

Either God is hiding from us. Or he doesn't exist.

I've made it known where I get my belief from...it's the

Apparently, God needs people to know him. If no one knew of him, would he exist? He's omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent: need, want.. what's the difference?

Oh...God would still exist. It's kind of like this. You don't need me to tell you who you are. You will be you regardless of who knows you or doesn't know you. Your existence is not depended on whether I find out who you are. Your life expectancy doesn't increase by how many people know you. But, if you want me to know you, you would communicate that to me.

If God would exist without you knowing he existed and will not do anything to directly prove he exists a sensible person that is not trying to make a point to state something they can't prove would most likely conclude that he really does not care where you stand about him.

Who is to say that God hasn't done anything? There is just this sense that if God exists, that this deity needs to put on a spectacular show of cosmic proportions to get people to be like..."Oh, I see now that God exists." However, even with a demonstration of power and might, does it mean that God can be trusted or that God even care? God's intentions may be to insight fear or make someone jealous that they can't do what He does. Or maybe He is a push-over hoping that His Creation would like Him...who knows? What if not doing anything is a way of showing that He does care?

1. Name some things God has done

2. Giving the universe concrete evidence of his existence would take the same amount of effort as blinking, riding a bike, logging on to allhiphop.com or anything he supposedly did in Bible times, like splitting the red sea for example or lighting a bush on fire and speaking from/through it (all because of his triple O status) Why isn't he doing any of these things now? Most likely, he never did.

3. He showed more than once, that he cared, in Bible times by helping his creations, even showing prejudice (which is odd for a triple O being in the first place--I mean, even some humans who AREN'T triple O are above such undesirable traits), helping and saving some and killing and cursing others (all under the category of being his creation, and knowing the outcome before he even created anything at all). Obviously, if we go by the Bible, we can tell that god has no problem with intervening at any time he pleases, to show that he "cares" about something.

4. Bible God doesn't HOPE that you like him. He DEMANDS that you like him. Or else. He'll throw you in a lake of fire for all eternity if you don't like him. If it was that important, he could have just created us, programmed to like him. He could have created heaven, created hell and seperated everybody from the beginning since he already knew the outcome from "let there be light". He could have saved everybody from the get-go and also programmed into our "souls" whatever the moral of the story is supposed to be, so that we don't have to learn it. We'd already know it. Keep in mind, he's triple O. He could have easily done any of this, just as easily as he allegedly created the universe as is.

5. Who's to say a magical giraffe hasn't poisoned your water supply? Does he need to put on a spectacular show of cosmic proportions to get you to be like.. "oh, I ain't drinkin this shit"

Woah...I think you read too much into that question. When I asked the question "Who is to say that God hasn't done anything?", it wasn't mean as a challenge or a battle cry for the Bible. It was just a generalization out of trying to respect the "other" religions out there. You went in like a beast!!!! But with that, you kind of prove my point (and just in case it wasn't mine...yours) that you may know the book (or in this case the words), but you don't know me. Your perspective on that question was totally different from mine which ought to bring up something. We always talk about the Bible have many translations and how it is written differently from the many other versions out there. But is it really a matter of many translations or many perspectives? You read the same question I wrote but you got something totally different from it.

So we know the book.. but we don't know god. But the books, really, are the only evidence for gods existence that we have, but is not reliable evidence. Any other evidence would have to be direct observation. Which we also don't have.

If the books' eye witness accounts and claims of gods existance don't solidify things, and neither would observing god (if we could), then what would solidify things? And are you admitting that gods existance is not solid?

 

[VIBE]

@Alissowack, to edit your post there's a gear looking image on the top right of your post, click that and click edit.

 

[alissowack]

@VIBE, thanks. Now I can cover my tracks and act like I didn't post something...unless I was quoted then that would suck.

 

[VIBE]

No problem man.

 

[alissowack]

@JadedRighteousness ...and I think we have a different perspective on knowledge. It's not that I don't understand the information-aspect of attaining knowledge, but that was not where I was going. It's a lot more...personal; more relational. When some people read the Bible, they are not necessarily trying to "get the facts". They just may be trying to "get close"; or develop a relationship. In the Bible, it is the belief that God gave people the opportunity to get close through Jesus and that one day that relationship can be restored; that people can know God like they know family and friends.

Now it's possible for people to read the Bible and come to some bad conclusions about it and history has shown it. I'm not particularly trying to cover crap with roses. But, I'm say that some people who do approach the Bible with a relational perspective come to respect it. Whether they believe in it or not in another thing.

 

[Bodhi]

They just may be trying to "get close"; or develop a relationship. In the Bible, it is the belief that God gave people the opportunity to get close through Jesus and that one day that relationship can be restored; that people can know God like they know family and friends.

Like an imaginary friend?

 

[Bodhi]

Now I can cover my tracks and act like I didn't post something...unless I was quoted then that would suck.

Is this a subliminal directed at me? If so, i haven't done any of that

 

[alissowack]

@JadedRighteousness. This is a response to both of your post. For the first one...no, but that is one of the dangers of approaching the Bible that way...that it becomes where people are either walking and talking with God or...they are God. And for the second...no. I like to make fun of myself from time to time.

 

[Bodhi]

people are either walking and talking with God or...they are God..

Delusion on one end, still delusion on the other

 

[alissowack]

people are either walking and talking with God or...they are God..

Delusion on one end, still delusion on the other

...I wasn't trying to separate the two. Both are it. I could be wrong, but I think delusions are brought about in believing they are either privileged over somebody or that they are in control (much like the guy in your signature). I think I said this somewhere...God's Existence doesn't mean they get what they want. But, that is what people who read (and preach) the Bible think and want everybody else to think. Believe it or not, the Bible speaks out on this.

 

[Bodhi]

You still haven't given me a sufficient answer to the core of this entire debate.

 

[alissowack]

You still haven't given me a sufficient answer to the core of this entire debate.

Well, I'm not trying to give "an answer". When it comes done to it...it is a matter of trust. I gave the definition of a Christian. You either going to take my word for it or you don't. I have no control over what you do with it.

 

[GSonII]

You still haven't given me a sufficient answer to the core of this entire debate.

Well, I'm not trying to give "an answer". When it comes done to it...it is a matter of trust. I gave the definition of a Christian. You either going to take my word for it or you don't. I have no control over what you do with it.

But you clog up the thread with post after post challenging others opinions only to state at the end its all about your beliefs? At the end of the day it is beyond ignorant to keep on making pointless points. I for one am not trying to make any believe or not believe. I am just stating facts. Yes, it would be nice to know that there is a God. It would be nice for the bible Gods rise from the grave to be noted by more than just a book and his few select friends. I mean if there is a God it is obvious that you will never really be sure until you are with him in death or some other form. You add nothing to the discussion by telling everyone else that they don't know rather God exists or not and that they are not worthy of wanting proof. You just sound like another person that wants to live in ignorance and fantasy land and be left alone. Lastly, Christians don't own God if he exists. So, that mess about what a Christian is means nothing in this discussion.

 

[alissowack]

You still haven't given me a sufficient answer to the core of this entire debate.

Well, I'm not trying to give "an answer". When it comes done to it...it is a matter of trust. I gave the definition of a Christian. You either going to take my word for it or you don't. I have no control over what you do with it.

But you clog up the thread with post after post challenging others opinions only to state at the end its all about your beliefs? At the end of the day it is beyond ignorant to keep on making pointless points. I for one am not trying to make any believe or not believe. I am just stating facts. Yes, it would be nice to know that there is a God. It would be nice for the bible Gods rise from the grave to be noted by more than just a book and his few select friends. I mean if there is a God it is obvious that you will never really be sure until you are with him in death or some other form. You add nothing to the discussion by telling everyone else that they don't know rather God exists or not and that they are not worthy of wanting proof. You just sound like another person that wants to live in ignorance and fantasy land and be left alone. Lastly, Christians don't own God if he exists. So, that mess about what a Christian is means nothing in this discussion.

Did I say anything about people not being worthy? There is nothing "privileged" about Christianity. There is nothing fantastic or secretive. But, it is the belief that the Bible is the Word of God and it's in the lives of all that can get to one. Unfortunately, those who read it (which includes me) are not going to see it for what it is. Much like the Genesis story, we are not content at taking someone's word for something especially if we think that maybe we are being taken advantage of like Eve with the "talking snake" or feel like they are being made a fool by God like Moses with the "burning bush". For those who do read it, do so thinking that because they come from a certain bloodline or a tribe, or follow the rules...that they have earned the right to be called righteous to the best understanding of what they think the Bible says...or what they want the Bible to say as they risk taken something out of context.

I'm sorry that you are not content with the points I made, but my intentions were not to clobber you with verses and "force" you to see. It's not my place to do so.

 

[toktaylor]

I would advise that you do not dismiss the idea of an infinite Creator, while I would agree on refuting the characteristics and personality of God that is portrayed in the Bible, seek to understand/know/accept a Supreme Force of which we are very much a part of. Even with the possibilities of Aliens and other extra-terrestrial life forms, the probability of a divine consciousness should not be refuted.

The proof of GOD’s existence is not found in the Bible or any other religious text, it is in Creation. It is in the mathematical, precise and perfect design. So intelligent, that it can be studied and manipulated by man. If trees, animals, plants, planets and stars are alive, then,...then the entire universe is alive. It is this life...this awareness...this intelligence, which is GOD the creator. Things are unfolding as they should, and man is just a part (probable insignificant part) of this cycle of life.

 

[Bodhi]

I would advise that you do not dismiss the idea of an infinite Creator, while I would agree on refuting the characteristics and personality of God that is portrayed in the Bible, seek to understand/know/accept a Supreme Force of which we are very much a part of. Even with the possibilities of Aliens and other extra-terrestrial life forms, the probability of a divine consciousness should not be refuted.

The proof of GOD’s existence is not found in the Bible or any other religious text, it is in Creation. It is in the mathematical, precise and perfect design. So intelligent, that it can be studied and manipulated by man. If trees, animals, plants, planets and stars are alive, then,...then the entire universe is alive. It is this life...this awareness...this intelligence, which is GOD the creator. Things are unfolding as they should, and man is just a part (probable insignificant part) of this cycle of life.

cosign

 

[Bodhi]

You still haven't given me a sufficient answer to the core of this entire debate.

Well, I'm not trying to give "an answer". When it comes done to it...it is a matter of trust. I gave the definition of a Christian. You either going to take my word for it or you don't. I have no control over what you do with it.

The definition of a Christian is not the core argument. Tell me where you observe a supernatural god-being creating and manipulating in the world around us or either accept that you do not observe such a being and that what you believe is an assumption, either based on the Bible or other influences but nothing grounded in concrete fact or observation

 

[alissowack]

You still haven't given me a sufficient answer to the core of this entire debate.

Well, I'm not trying to give "an answer". When it comes done to it...it is a matter of trust. I gave the definition of a Christian. You either going to take my word for it or you don't. I have no control over what you do with it.

The definition of a Christian is not the core argument. Tell me where you observe a supernatural god-being creating and manipulating in the world around us or either accept that you do not observe such a being and that what you believe is an assumption, either based on the Bible or other influences but nothing grounded in concrete fact or observation

I think I cleared things up in the other thread, but just in case...my point wasn't about whether or not God can be observed.

 

[GSonII]

I would advise that you do not dismiss the idea of an infinite Creator, while I would agree on refuting the characteristics and personality of God that is portrayed in the Bible, seek to understand/know/accept a Supreme Force of which we are very much a part of. Even with the possibilities of Aliens and other extra-terrestrial life forms, the probability of a divine consciousness should not be refuted.

The proof of GOD’s existence is not found in the Bible or any other religious text, it is in Creation. It is in the mathematical, precise and perfect design. So intelligent, that it can be studied and manipulated by man. If trees, animals, plants, planets and stars are alive, then,...then the entire universe is alive. It is this life...this awareness...this intelligence, which is GOD the creator. Things are unfolding as they should, and man is just a part (probable insignificant part) of this cycle of life.

Yes, so insignificant that maybe we should not even waste time worrying rather he exists or not because all we can do is come up with theories that can not be proven. Creation is far from perfect IMO. It is certainly amazing the way your body works and you could live from things that the earth produces naturally, but not perfect.

I think the best thing you can take from threads like this is that God certainly does not need us like some would assert.