Wouldn't it be nice is there really was a God?

[Bodhi]

The thing is however...God's Existence doesn't necessarily mean that we get what we want.

what does it mean then?

It means that we can't think we can rest in our assumptions on who God is. I can believe that because God exists, that God also shares in my perverted perceptions of Him...that God supports "my" cause. If anything, God supports His Own Cause; apart from what anybody thinks and if we just happened to be "on board", so be it.

This was your core argument; that we cannot rest in our assumptions on who God is. With theism, this makes no sense as theism is based on assumptions. Without concrete fact or observation of god's existence, there is nothing else but assumptions and imagination. That was my response. You've been dancing around it but haven't brought anything effective to the table. At one point, you contradicted your argument by admitting that your belief in god is an assumption of who/what god is.

 

[Bodhi]

Jaded righteousness great comment.

appreciate it, brother

 

[alissowack]

@JadeRighteousness. Maybe I need to just (only in principe) post a bunch of verses and stuff just so you know that I believe in what the Bible says God to be. Because you continue to assume that I'm not coming from anywhere with this. The Bible is where I'm coming from but you are not content with it being "evidence". And I'm not trying to convince you that it is evidence for that is not the point. It's more than that.

 

[Bodhi]

You, yourself, are not content with the Bible being evidence. You said earlier either in this thread or the other that man has no say in who or what God is. Yet man wrote the Bible. Therefore, the Bible can't be trusted because realistically, all it is, is man writing down his assumptions of what god is. On top of that, your argument is that we can't rest on assumptions so it's no use to even pull up a Bible verse

 

[alissowack]

You, yourself, are not content with the Bible being evidence. You said earlier either in this thread or the other that man has no say in who or what God is. Yet man wrote the Bible. Therefore, the Bible can't be trusted because realistically, all it is, is man writing down his assumptions of what god is. On top of that, your argument is that we can't rest on assumptions so it's no use to even pull up a Bible verse

I am content in the Bible being "evidence". Just not in the way you want it to be. When I say that man has no say...I mean it in respect to authority. I can't say what God is or what God isn't because I read the Bible and it says what it says. I can think that because God is good according to the Bible, that He needs to conform to what I perceive "good" to be; that God has to meets my expectations. It's not to say that there is common aspect to doing good and I want to do good, I just can't say what I determine what "good" produces. My "goodness" may be the reason for someone's wrongdoing...or my honesty may produce deception in somebody.

 

[Bodhi]

I can think that because God is good according to the Bible, that He needs to conform to what I perceive "good" to be; that God has to meets my expectations.

did you mean can or can't?

 

[alissowack]

I can think that because God is good according to the Bible, that He needs to conform to what I perceive "good" to be; that God has to meets my expectations.

did you mean can or can't?

Can. Uh...I'm typing just to meet the character limit.

 

[Bodhi]

You contradict yourself then by thinking that god has to meet your expectations. You have no authority, according to what you said earlier.

The thing is however...God's Existence doesn't necessarily mean that we get what we want.

It means that we can't think we can rest in our assumptions on who God is. I can believe that because God exists, that God also shares in my perverted perceptions of Him...that God supports "my" cause. If anything, God supports His Own Cause; apart from what anybody thinks and if we just happened to be "on board", so be it.

 

[alissowack]

@JadeRighteousness. I don't particularly see the contradictions for in either case, I was expressing how much I don't have control over the matters of God.

 

[Bodhi]

You said that you can think that god has to conform to your standards of what good is supposed to be but earier you said that you can't rest on assumptions of who god is, or think that god supports your cause.

One statement puts you first. The other puts god first.

 

[alissowack]

You said that you can think that god has to conform to your standards of what good is supposed to be but earier you said that you can't rest on assumptions of who god is, or think that god supports your cause.

One statement puts you first. The other puts god first.

You read way too much into that statement. I was saying this as an example, not as a claim. Maybe if you read the context of my statement, you would see that. I'm showing that despite putting myself first, God will still be first. I sometimes play the role of scenarios I draw up and it can easily be made to seem as if I support something I'm really not.

 

[loch121]

Damn Bro God ain't no punk God, you disrespect the lord and find nothing goes your way in your daily life.

You never hoped and wished for things(not money) that came true and was beyond your power?

When I was a kid I would pray for things and I would recieve some of the things I prayed for, as a kid I would be shocked I recieved what I asked for.

Its a good feeling to be in tune with God.

Your tone is very negative, would you ask your Mother for something then turn around and tell her she's an asshole if she doesn't do it or comply with your wishes?

If you want to invoke God you need to Respect what your trying to invoke. Also realize God is not your employee, its actually the other way around. So if you get something you ask for you must be respectful and thankful for your blessings.

Not trying to impose just saying

What about all the rich atheists with great lives?

 

[Bodhi]

it can easily be made to seem as if I support something I'm really not.

yeah whatever

 

[alissowack]

@JadeRighteousness. Well, why can't I think that God has to meet my expectations? I'm my own person and despite being either right or wrong, I can make that choice. I just can't think I am making a choice to ultimate determine the fate of a deity (given God exist).

I think you trying way too hard to catch me in something. I'm not perfect so chances are you will. But, all you want to do is win...then I'll save you the trouble and say that I lost...that I was no match for you.

 

[Bodhi]

I already caught you in something in the other thread and you still haven't acknowledged it. If you want to talk about winning and losing, you lost a long time ago. Most of what you say doesn't make any sense. I just enjoy conversing about spirituality to tell you the truth.

 

[Bodhi]

It's like playing chess. I don't hate you. This isn't personal. Just debating.

To answer your question, though.. If your god exists, then by definition, he is supreme. If that is the case, he does not HAVE to meet any of your expectations. If he does, he is not supreme and by default he is not your god.

 

[alissowack]

@JadeRighteousness. ...You are correct in what you are saying. I agree with that God does not have to meet my expectations. That was what I was trying to say the whole time. But that doesn't mean that I...or somebody else for the sake of example...can't think that God can meet my expectation. My point was to say that it doesn't matter what I think. I can't make God any less (or more) supreme.

When I made my "win-lose" comment, I did that half-heartedly...because winning doesn't mean that the truth has been revealed. I would hate to win and a lie is my reward.

 

[Bodhi]

Removing theism isn't going to make things better...or make things worse. The struggles of life will still remain. What it's going to do is force people to accept what is even if it may be wrong to accept it or not; to not think that maybe there is an answer outside of themselves...that there isn't a final say in the matters of life.

You stated that removing theism doesn't make anything better or worse.. then you proceed to claim that removing theism would make things worse, which contradicts what you said a sentence or two earlier. But had you not contradicted yourself with that second claim, you still would have contradicted your entire argument by stating that removing theism doesn't have any effect on our lives. When you say that, you infer that theism has no effect on us at all, which really means that belief in god has no effect on us at all, which really means that god has no effect on us at all, which really means that god doesn't exist.

answer this

 

[BlackxChild]

Damn Bro God ain't no punk God, you disrespect the lord and find nothing goes your way in your daily life.

You never hoped and wished for things(not money) that came true and was beyond your power?

When I was a kid I would pray for things and I would recieve some of the things I prayed for, as a kid I would be shocked I recieved what I asked for.

Its a good feeling to be in tune with God.

Your tone is very negative, would you ask your Mother for something then turn around and tell her she's an asshole if she doesn't do it or comply with your wishes?

If you want to invoke God you need to Respect what your trying to invoke. Also realize God is not your employee, its actually the other way around. So if you get something you ask for you must be respectful and thankful for your blessings.

Not trying to impose just saying

So praying is like using dragonballs... Watch this video
=youtube_gdata_player

 

[alissowack]

Removing theism isn't going to make things better...or make things worse. The struggles of life will still remain. What it's going to do is force people to accept what is even if it may be wrong to accept it or not; to not think that maybe there is an answer outside of themselves...that there isn't a final say in the matters of life.

You stated that removing theism doesn't make anything better or worse.. then you proceed to claim that removing theism would make things worse, which contradicts what you said a sentence or two earlier. But had you not contradicted yourself with that second claim, you still would have contradicted your entire argument by stating that removing theism doesn't have any effect on our lives. When you say that, you infer that theism has no effect on us at all, which really means that belief in god has no effect on us at all, which really means that god has no effect on us at all, which really means that god doesn't exist.

answer this

I really don't see the contradiction, but I will try to explain it. There are people who do some really bad things in the name of religion...or theism. And, yet there are some people who do bad things apart from it. Removing theism isn't going to stop somebody from trying to do the right thing nor is having it going to stop somebody from doing the wrong thing. But, at least theism tries to put man in a position where we are not in control. Theism tries to suggest that there are rules and laws in which all must abide by...not just an individual. If we are only left to govern ourselves, then there is a chance that we may wrong our rights...and right our wrongs and there won't be something outside of ourselves to tell us different. Sure, you have things like government, but even they need something over them. Now, does that mean that the world is "going to Hell"? I use to think that, but now I think that is not my call. I'll just have to live life to see. But, I'm not saying that removing theism does anything for risk of conjuring up a utopia about it.