Would You Support Strict Government Human Population Control To Prevent Bad Parents?

[Plutarch]

Sorry Plutarch, I was under the assumption that this population control would automatically include some type of stipulations such as I.Q.testing. I couldn't see the government limiting anyone's right to reproduce without establishing a criteria. I actually don't like to see anyone exploited by the government, I was only pointing out some of the ways it is done.

No problem man. But yeah, that's very fair. I agree, government exploitation is never a good thing.

I do think if it ever gets to a point where the government is going to control population it will be done similar to A BRAVE NEW WORLD where people will be bred, when you look at what is being done now as far as gender selection and testing for genetic precursors it isn't hard to believe these types of measures could be taken.

I cannot doubt you for one second there. Sadly enough, the signs are pretty obvious today. BRAVE NEW WORLD was/is so scary...

 

[Plutarch]

Well my question is what is your true definition of bad parenting?

Yes, a very necessary yet difficult question. Generalwise, I would have to say that my true definition of bad parenting is parenting that neglects or fails to "educate" the child or children about life and the world in general such as responsibility for various things, respect for various things (including the law, other people, etc), the importance of education (to combat ignorance such as racism and sexism), etc. Now that's probably a bad and subjective (though I wouldnt say too subjective because I always try to be as unbiased as possible) definition, so I see your point if you have a problem with it. But I think that older people go through life experiences and they make bad choices. Well, it's these bad choices that need to be taught to their children so that those children don't make the same mistakes and so that they live a better life for themselves and everyone else. If that makes sense. It's like when a boy doesn't have father figure in his life so he ends up doing dumb stuff. But later, that same boy grows up to be a man and a father, but he himself isn't around for his son so he ends up doing to his son the same things his father did to him, which was not being there for your child. If that makes any sense.

Cause actually a bad parent to me is a parent that make bad choices to have sex unmarried and not follow the laws of God. I see bad parenting as not having family time and the mother and father not taking their proper roles in the home and just shipping their kids off to school everyday to learn about a history that's not even theirs and not even learning about who they are and where they came from.

Yes, you and I have somewhat different notions on what bad parenting is. Even though I don't agree with your notion about fornication and the laws of God, I respect that and agree with your notion about taking proper roles and having a vested interest in your children.

Bad parenting just do not revolve around the kids in gangs and drugs, etc and the obvious.

I'm well aware of this. Did I give you the impression that I thought that bad parenting revolves around the kids in gangs and doing drugs? I was just using those instances as mere examples. Obviously, there are many more other example to be named.

And another question? are you a parent? do you do what you are suppose to do? Are you living with person or married to person you have a child with...start with you and see the changes you make with your family (if you have one)

I honestly think that these questions as largely irrelevant to the main argument. But even if I was a parent that didn't practice what I preach, that would only make me a hypocrite. That wouldn't necessarily prove that what I was saying was false.

But no, I am not a parent. If I was, I would certainly, or at the least try to, practice what I preach not because I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite but because I genuinely believe in what I was saying as truthful and progressive. If was a parent, I would want to be married to the person whom I would have a child with. I wouldn't want to have a child with someone I am not married to (or in "true" love with) because that could be irresponsible and many many problems/drama can arise in such a situation.

 

[Plutarch]

Mandatory murder! Yep sounds just like the direction this world is headed to. The Georgia guide stones tell it in secular language. The book of Revelation tells it in spiritual language.

I respect you as my Christian brother (that is, if you are not a gimmick/troll), but sometimes you are just over the top.

Though you could be making a fair argument. But I don't see contraception and sterilization as murder. How are you defining "murder"?

Now abortion? I'd rather not get into that argument. There's no clear cut answer to that at all. Though, I would agree that in some cases, abortion is basically terminating the life of a baby that would otherwise have a life. If you call that murder (I however might use a more accurate and less charged term), then yes I agree with you in that regard.

 

[Plutarch]

That would never work, bad parenting is subjective.

yes and no...

 

[Plutarch]

My last point was sarcasm!

Lol, I thought so, but I thought I saw a typo in there somewhere that threw me off. I must've been tripping.

It just seems to me that the government always has money for the army but never for social services. You'd think that because this involves the lives of citizens they'd fund social services more but alas....

I've been saying this for the longest. This forever reminds me of a 2pac line: "we got money for wars, but cant feed the poor". I'm beginning to think more and more that the U.S. needs to adminster a self imposed isolationist foreign policy. How can we spend billions on foreign wars (most of them unecessary) and not spend it on the domestic wars that go on at home? Seems criminal and idiotic to me.

 

[Plutarch]

same could be said about corporations who abuse the system...majority of people who use social services are on them then get off them

I noticed that you ignored my question/reply. Nothing personal, just curious.

I agree with you btw about the corporations. Practically, everyone abuses the system. And the system abuses everyone. How fun. Maybe we should get rid of the system? No, then we'd have anarchy and that would be far worse. We need to hit that perfect middle balance between anarchism and totalitarianism?

 

[Plutarch]

WHY is it the governments job to take care of some people from cradle to grave? -- especially those who abuse the system. There used to be this one individual on this site who boasted about pimpin' the system for everything he could get...and then some wonder why the government is broke. I CAN'T stand these fuckers who don't contribute to the system and then yell-out shit like this; this motherfucker owes me (Uncle Sam/Sugar) on and on and on and on.

I agree and disagree. It angers me when peopel who abuse the system are taken care of by the system. Yes.

But there are those who need legitimate help. Like good children who inherit massive amounts of debt from bad parents. Or minorities (including women) who legitimately are kept down because of racism and discrimination (though I don't want to exaggerate this point). This world right now especially is unforgiving and rough, sometimes almost to impossible extents. This is when the government should help it's citizens. This is why the government exists, theoretically. A government is nothing without it's citizens.

The biggest point is that government money should actively help its people and not fund unecessary, foreign wars to help the government achieve more global/international power. One could however argue that if the U.S. attains global/international power, then the U.S. has the ability to help its people anyway. But I doubt that the U.S. government is so altruistic.

 

[kheiyah4life]

yes, a very necessary yet difficult question. Generalwise, i would have to say that my true definition of bad parenting is parenting that neglects or fails to "educate" the child or children about life and the world in general such as responsibility for various things, respect for various things (including the law, other people, etc), the importance of education (to combat ignorance such as racism and sexism), etc. Now that's probably a bad and subjective (though i wouldnt say too subjective because i always try to be as unbiased as possible) definition, so i see your point if you have a problem with it. But i think that older people go through life experiences and they make bad choices. Well, it's these bad choices that need to be taught to their children so that those children don't make the same mistakes and so that they live a better life for themselves and everyone else. If that makes sense. It's like when a boy doesn't have father figure in his life so he ends up doing dumb stuff. But later, that same boy grows up to be a man and a father, but he himself isn't around for his son so he ends up doing to his son the same things his father did to him, which was not being there for your child. If that makes any sense.

Yes, you and i have somewhat different notions on what bad parenting is. Even though i don't agree with your notion about fornication and the laws of god, i respect that and agree with your notion about taking proper roles and having a vested interest in your children.

I'm well aware of this. Did i give you the impression that i thought that bad parenting revolves around the kids in gangs and doing drugs? I was just using those instances as mere examples. Obviously, there are many more other example to be named.

I honestly think that these questions as largely irrelevant to the main argument. But even if i was a parent that didn't practice what i preach, that would only make me a hypocrite. That wouldn't necessarily prove that what i was saying was false.

But no, i am not a parent. If i was, i would certainly, or at the least try to, practice what i preach not because i wouldn't want to be a hypocrite but because i genuinely believe in what i was saying as truthful and progressive. If was a parent, i would want to be married to the person whom i would have a child with. I wouldn't want to have a child with someone i am not married to (or in "true" love with) because that could be irresponsible and many many problems/drama can arise in such a situation.

well from your answers to my questions that you so wonderfully did and respected i appreciate that. Honestly i sometimes get tired of these types of questions out there that some people post but really have no idea as to what they are posting. I was wondering as to why you do not agree with the following of gods laws and fornication comments though?

 

[Plutarch]

no, terrible idea.

Yeah, lol. The idea itself is terrible. But I still think that the social problems that gave rise to such a terrible idea are very relevant and serious.

I understand your concern about bad parents

Thanks. Wow, you never see something like this being said on the forums...

but, A governmental mandate for abortion, contraception and forced sterilization is never a good idea. Thats actually criminal in my book. Also, those initiatives are presumptuous which would assume that a particular person will automatically be a bad parent... guilty until proven innocent.

Hm. I agree with what you said about the whole government thing. And I could largely agree with your statement that it's criminal; like I said, it's practically unconstitutional. But I would disagree and agree with your statement about the intiatives. One one hand, I see your point. A "good" father can die and leave a "good" mother to raise her "good" son alone in a bad neighborhood. And because the mother is working day and night to support her son and because boys will be boys, the son can be basically raised by a group of "bad" friends and get into all types of stuff that makes him a menace to society. But it's not really the mother or the father's fault so I see your point.

But exceptions like these can easily be made. Also, common ground can easily be made to generally (not absolutely, because nothing is perfect or absolute) identify and define bad parenting. Also, I think that if you are the father of 36 children, have never made an effort to raise said children, and are drug dealing murderer, then you are already guilty of being a bad parent. You don't have to always be proven guilty, sometiems the guilty prove it themselves.

 

[Plutarch]

No I'm more in the antiMalthusian camp. Population control has a lot of unintended consequences, including gendercide, and dangerous demographic gaps.

True. more fair points.

I don't think that I'm in the Malthusian camp btw. Just to let you know.

 

[Plutarch]

You about 6 millinieums too late

Forgive me, I'm stupid. I don't think I understand. Are you saying that this should've been done 6 mill ago?

You and your ambigious cryptic ways of sayign things...

 

[Plutarch]

gotta disagree .... gangs, high murder rate, and even your everyday acts of stupidity are prevalent in impoverished communities everywhere....

I dont see how this specifically disproves what I said.

poverty and social immobility are symptoms of a failed state

I agree. Though I don't want to split hairs when I say this but I think that poverty and social immobility are also symptoms of a "backwards"? society, i.e. bad parenting and poor education. I think that it's self perpetuating this way. I really don't think that I want to argue about whether or not the chicken or the egg came first. That seems incredibly complicated to me.

institutionalized racism, our failing school system, the lack of jobs, bad policies ( the war on drugs), globalization, corrupt politicians are the reasons why america is in so much trouble....

Like before, I agree and disagree. Though I wouldn't say bad parents and bad education have so much to do with globalization, corrupt politics, and thigns like that. I was only talking about society. Not economics, politics, and things like that.

these "bad" parents are victims, products of their environment....

Agree and disagree. These bad parents are victims and culprits, right? We can't ignore the existence of will and responsibility can we?

and what makes a parent "bad"?

I gave my definition in my response to kheiyah4life. Sorry, I'm too lazy to repost it.

 

[Plutarch]

well from your answers to my questions that you so wonderfully did and respected i appreciate that. Honestly i sometimes get tired of these types of questions out there that some people post but really have no idea as to what they are posting.

Agreed! And thanks.

I was wondering as to why you do not agree with the following of gods laws and fornication comments though?

I somewhat agree personally. Personalwise, I try to follow God's law. Though therein lies the problem. I don't think that God's law is so clear cut. And some churches have their own take and other churches have theirs. And you never really know with all these different denominations. That's why I have find out on my own, and so I'm still working on that. I'm not enitirely sure that "fornication" is against God's law. I'm not entirely sure what fornication is. And if it is what everyone thinks that it is, then I'm going to have a pretty hard time not committing that sin. It's not impossible, but in these days it sure is difficult especially when you're young and dumb like me.

Impersonalwise as far as the American government goes, I disagree simply because the U.S. theoretically is not a theocracy and theoretically the U.S. has separation of church and state and freedom of religion, so the U.S. should not define bad parenting in terms of Christianity.

 

[kingblaze84]

I’m a strong believer in freedom and liberty, but I also strongly believe that a big central part of the reason for many of the severe problems in American society (such as gangs, high murder rate, and even your everyday acts of stupidity) originates with bad parenting (that and poor education): Parents, for whatever reason, who fail at raising their kids right. It may be a stretch to say this, but some, if not most, of the children of these parents grow up to have serious problems. And these problems will most likely spill over to “innocent” people. I’m going to guess and say that most serial killers had bad parents, so you can’t deny that the murders that they commit are partly caused by bad parenting. I do know that a lot of gangbangers never had good parents, or at least a good father, and that’s part of the reason why they accepted a different family/gang. Then you have parents that are way too young and immature to raise kids because they themselves are kids. And you also have couples (especially immigrants) who have 50 kids when the economy’s bad. And they never even give a thought about how much it will cost to send those kids to college. And don’t get me started on the Octomoms out there.

We need to put bad parents on blast, but you very well know that the last thing that a bad parent is going to do is admit that he or she is a bad parent. So why not skip the dumbshit and have the government administer mandatory contraception, abortion, and sterilization? And mandatory child services checkups? Wouldn’t that better society as a whole? To be honest, all this sounds terrible to me and I don’t fully support it, but it’s something to think about right?

I agree with you in theory, but in practice it is draconian and cruel. I will say this though, if a woman has 3 or more kids by 3 or more different baby daddies and is on welfare for longer than 5 years, I say sterilize her. Too many women out here having babies they can't afford, and society gets more harmed in the process.

 

[kingblaze84]

This thread is about parenting and children so when I mentioned social services I mean DSS also known as Social Services, so when you talk about people "abusing the system" I am not quite sure how people in care and abused children do that. You seem to think I meant welfare.

Just to let you know, the government is not "broke" because of social services. Approximately 2.7% of America's GDP goes social services this includes: Medicaid, food stamps, family support assistance (AFDC), supplemental security income (SSI), child nutrition programs, refundable portions of earned income tax credits (EITC and HITC) and child tax credit, welfare contingency fund, child care entitlement to States, temporary assistance to needy families, foster care and adoption assistance, State children's health insurance and veterans pensions.

Considering America's debt is over 14 trillion, social services cannot be blamed for that. Are some people abusing the system? Yes. But in reality they are not the reason your taxes are going up.

That aside, my point is that if the system works as it should, when taxpayer money goes on Social Services it will help children that end up in care or in abusive situations live better lives, become model citizens and thus, get a job and pay back into the system. This is obviously only applicable if all things are equal.

Great post, I hate when people go off on ignorant tangents without knowing the facts. Wall Street and corporations get more welfare than any poor person I know.

 

[Plutarch]

I agree with you in theory, but in practice it is draconian and cruel. I will say this though, if a woman has 3 or more kids by 3 or more different baby daddies and is on welfare for longer than 5 years, I say sterilize her. Too many women out here having babies they can't afford, and society gets more harmed in the process.

Agreed, though feminists will have something to say about that heh.

Great post, I hate when people go off on ignorant tangents without knowing the facts. Wall Street and corporations get more welfare than any poor person I know.

Yeah, I don't know how I missed that post but I just read it. Great post indeed. I never knew all of that.

 

[bornnraisedoffCMR]

No. Unfortunately, bad parents are a part of human evolution. And who is to say the govt knows how to parent a child?

 

[desertrain10]

I dont see how this specifically disproves what I said.

I agree. Though I don't want to split hairs when I say this but I think that poverty and social immobility are also symptoms of a "backwards"? society, i.e. bad parenting and poor education. I think that it's self perpetuating this way. I really don't think that I want to argue about whether or not the chicken or the egg came first. That seems incredibly complicated to me.

Like before, I agree and disagree. Though I wouldn't say bad parents and bad education have so much to do with globalization, corrupt politics, and thigns like that. I was only talking about society. Not economics, politics, and things like that.

Agree and disagree. These bad parents are victims and culprits, right? We can't ignore the existence of will and responsibility can we?

I gave my definition in my response to kheiyah4life. Sorry, I'm too lazy to repost it.

the problems of which you speak of are not so much the effects of bad parenting but more so the failures of our politicians and public school system.

please don't deflect to parenting so easily. there's a reason why some of these "bad" parents are faulty much like their kids....

"bad" parents are always going to be around anyways. there's no passable way to stop it. the only thing we can do as a country and soceity is provide our children rich and poor with the resources they need to succeed which the government has miserably failed to do

 

[DarcSkies]

all sounds great til YOUR parents are being reviewed and judged and your dirty laundry comes out.

Its funny how you types always talk this shit. Its usually about population control. "its too many people! The world is over populated!" But you wont kill yourself and your family to help remedy that.

"We need to get rid of these bad parents!" Because your parents are so great, right?

Ideals like yours are flawed because they are all based on YOU being the standard of acceptability. But who says YOUR parents shouldnt be punished for your upbringing? OHHHH thats right....you were raised just right. You turned out great right?

Who's the judge? YOU? Grades? Certificates? Awards? Trophies? Jail record or lack thereof? Career path? Voting record? Your idea is unrealistic. If you take away the poor the intelligent people wont fi this country. The upper middle class will simply become the NEW poor. Not to mention how poor people spend the most money in this country (on bullshit mostly).

 

[Plutarch]

the problems of which you speak of are not so much the effects of bad parenting but more so the failures of our politicians and public school system.

please don't deflect to parenting so easily. there's a reason why some of these "bad" parents are faulty much like their kids....

This almost seems like a "word for word" restatement of what you originally said. So I'm not sure how to respond to this because I already did?

"bad" parents are always going to be around anyways. there's no passable way to stop it.

Yes, bad parents are always going to be around. But that doesnt mean that we shouldn't do something about it and mitigate that problem to an extent.

the only thing we can do as a country and soceity is provide our children rich and poor with the resources they need to succeed which the government has miserably failed to do

I agree, though that's not the only thiong we can do as a country and society.