Why I raise my children without God.

[zombie]

Fuck being nice

Says the person that claims belief in god gives one the knowledge to know what is right and wrong. Instead of being here, you should be praying for strengthening of your faith so that you can act in a more civilized and righteouss way

YEAH but that's the thing it's always my choice. I hate atheism i would prefer you pray to a rock than be atheist. so to me this is kind of like a small war and my god can be very harsh to those he fights against.

 

[Bodhi]

You can ignore this if you want to but the fact still remains that abortions have a greater effect on europe than it does on jamaica.

Not really. Western Europe has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. Jamaica has a higher abortion rate and it shows in the declining number of births, so the effects are felt more so in Jamaica, especially where numbers are fewer.

The real birth rate of jamaicans is unknown the first 4 years of my life is a testament to that.

Sure.

jamaica is poor poverty is the reason for the abortions.

Okay so now poverty is the reason for abortions? I thought it was ungodliness.

western europe is rich the reasons for their low birth rate is cultural changes of which atheism is one.

And now atheism causes people to avoid having children?? Obviously not. Jamaica's birth rate is a testament to that.

what is your source for western europe having the lowest abortion rate.

Western Europe, Southern Africa and Northern Europe have the lowest abortion rates in the world
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

 

[zombie]

You can ignore this if you want to but the fact still remains that abortions have a greater effect on europe than it does on jamaica.

Not really. Western Europe has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world. Jamaica has a higher abortion rate and it shows in the declining number of births, so the effects are felt more so in Jamaica, especially where numbers are fewer.

Maybe you don't understand what i am saying, jamaica has no influx of people of different cultures coming to stay forever, europe does, so as the native europeans slowy fade in importance these people will take over and forever change those nations. jamaica will not have this problem, For jamaica the numbers don't even matter as much there will always be a majority black jamaican population, europe will not have a majority white population in the next 100 years

The real birth rate of jamaicans is unknown the first 4 years of my life is a testament to that.

Sure.

jamaica is poor poverty is the reason for the abortions.

Okay so now poverty is the reason for abortions? I thought it was ungodliness.

Both in jamaicans case it's poverty in europes it's ungodliness

western europe is rich the reasons for their low birth rate is cultural changes of which atheism is one.

And now atheism causes people to avoid having children?? Obviously not. Jamaica's birth rate is a testament to that.

what is your source for western europe having the lowest abortion rate.

Western Europe, Southern Africa and Northern Europe have the lowest abortion rates in the world
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

Atheism does cause people to avoid having children, it's not the only reason but it is a reason.

 

[zombie]

Maybe you don't understand what i am saying, jamaica has no influx of people of different cultures coming to stay forever, europe does, so as the native europeans slowy fade in importance these people will take over and forever change those nations. jamaica will not have this problem, For jamaica the numbers don't even matter as much there will always be a majority black jamaican population, europe will not have a majority white population in the next 100 years.

 

[ohhhla]

It's funny coming from a person who speaks the white man's language.

 

[zombie]

It's funny coming from a person who speaks the white man's language.

who is this addressed to.

 

[Lot86]

The only thing is we have the proof required in order to disprove the Abrahamic god. The proof lies in the incoherent and illogical descriptions of that god. Therefore the ball is back in the theists court to address these logical fallacies and inconsistencies and offer the proof needed to save the theistic argument.

First you didn't explain all the incoherent and illogical descriptions, just saying that isn't going to get us anywhere, second, don't let it be based on an opinion. We're talking definitive proof, not opinion. Remember, I'm Muslim, not Christian, so you can't come to me about the earth only being here for 6000 years, or noah's ark world wide flood.

As for the poison bottle example you used, if your going to make comparisons to prove something is fake, make sure you're using something realistic. Like I wrote earlier in this thread, I've done this dozens of times, and quite frankly tired of it, so give me something worth the effort.

 

[Bodhi]

Maybe you don't understand what i am saying, jamaica has no influx of people of different cultures coming to stay forever, europe does, so as the native europeans slowy fade in importance these people will take over and forever change those nations. jamaica will not have this problem, For jamaica the numbers don't even matter as much there will always be a majority black jamaican population, europe will not have a majority white population in the next 100 years.

^^^ Red herring. Your point in bringing up abortion was to claim that it is a result of the ungodliness that atheism promotes and that abortion is a contributor to the destruction of civilization. You claimed that countries with large atheist populations are dying because they are plagued with destructive rights such as abortion. However, I have shown that Jamaica suffers from the same problem; that the birth rate is decreasing and has been for several decades, abortion being a contributing factor, despite the religious history and culture of Jamaica. So neither the belief nor faith in God is saving Jamaica from abortion, decreasing birth rates, poverty and poor economy, unemployment, bad government or any other problems that it faces.

Atheism does cause people to avoid having children, it's not the only reason but it is a reason.

Religion also causes people to avoid having children in some instances.

 

[Bodhi]

First you didn't explain all the incoherent and illogical descriptions, just saying that isn't going to get us anywhere

The problem of evil.

second, don't let it be based on an opinion. We're talking definitive proof, not opinion. Remember, I'm Muslim, not Christian, so you can't come to me about the earth only being here for 6000 years, or noah's ark world wide flood.

Surah 41:10-12 says the earth was created before the stars. Modern science has disproved this.

16:15 says that God cast into the earth firm hills that would not quake or move. Modern science has proven that the earth is continuously moving and that mountains are created by the movement.

36:40 says that the sun and moon orbit the earth. Modern science has disproved this.

As for the poison bottle example you used, if your going to make comparisons to prove something is fake, make sure you're using something realistic. Like I wrote earlier in this thread, I've done this dozens of times, and quite frankly tired of it, so give me something worth the effort.

The example given is realistic. Are you afraid to answer it? If so, I understand. If not, would you drink without proof that the bottle does not contain poison or would you avoid taking from it?

 

[zombie]

Maybe you don't understand what i am saying, jamaica has no influx of people of different cultures coming to stay forever, europe does, so as the native europeans slowy fade in importance these people will take over and forever change those nations. jamaica will not have this problem, For jamaica the numbers don't even matter as much there will always be a majority black jamaican population, europe will not have a majority white population in the next 100 years.

^^^ Red herring. Your point in bringing up abortion was to claim that it is a result of the ungodliness that atheism promotes and that abortion is a contributor to the destruction of civilization. You claimed that countries with large atheist populations are dying because they are plagued with destructive rights such as abortion. However, I have shown that Jamaica suffers from the same problem; that the birth rate is decreasing and has been for several decades, abortion being a contributing factor, despite the religious history and culture of Jamaica. So neither the belief nor faith in God is saving Jamaica from abortion, decreasing birth rates, poverty and poor economy, unemployment, bad government or any other problems that it faces.

jamaica suffers from the same problems but not for the same reasons most of jamaica's problems are linked to outside forces that are beyond it's control. Unlike europe's problems that are linked to the godlessness of it's people. like i have already told you abortion in jamaica is not destroying jamaica because it's native population no matter how it shrinks will still be the same. jamaica will stay jamaica. europe will not stay europe if it's native population shrinks to almost nothing.

Atheism does cause people to avoid having children, it's not the only reason but it is a reason.

Religion also causes people to avoid having children in some instances.

list these instances, there are many ways to die europe will be destroyed because of it's peoples godlessness jamaica may also die but it will be from something else. you are comparing apples to oranges. by the way abortion is illegal in jamaica.

 

[loch121]

I'm from the religion of I don't know but science does have valid proof that evolution happened.

 

[Bodhi]

jamaica suffers from the same problems but not for the same reasons most of jamaica's problems are linked to outside forces that are beyond it's control. Unlike europe's problems that are linked to the godlessness of it's people. like i have already told you abortion in jamaica is not destroying jamaica because it's native population no matter how it shrinks will still be the same. jamaica will stay jamaica. europe will not stay europe if it's native population shrinks to almost nothing.

Jamaica suffers from the same problems regardless of its theistic beliefs which means that theism does not help to eradicate the destructive forces that work against it. From there, we can easily conclude that theistic religion is not worth having since obviously belief in God does not save theistic countries from things such as poverty, terrible government, unemployment, immigration and emigration.

Immigration in Jamaica is also increasing as it is elsewhere in other countries. Jamaica also has a large emigration rate. You couple the emigration rate with the low fertility rate and what do you get?

In recent years, immigration has increased, coming mainly from China, Haiti, Cuba, Colombia, and Latin American countries; 20,000 Latin Americans currently reside in Jamaica. About 7,000 Americans also reside in Jamaica, as well as many first-generation American, British and Canadian of Jamaican descendant.

You also talk about so many native Jamaicans being born, but Jamaica has such a poor economy and unemployment rate, that would be a problem for future generations that have larger families but no means to provide for them, which is partly why Jamaica is deep in poverty as we speak, which you admitted to. And bad government certainly won't help. Despite what you say, though, Jamaican reporters claim that the birth rate is decreasing:

There are also no figures to capture abortions performed in Jamaica, but the Board counts among its successes a fertility rate that continues to decline. The Registrar General's Department registered 41,956 births in 2009, and 42,346 the previous year.

"From these point estimates, it can reasonably be concluded that most of the young women's fertility rates declined in the 1980s, plateaued in the early and mid-1990s, after which they started to drop again at a much slower pace into the early and mid-2000s," [executive director of the Board Dr Sharlene Jarrett] said.

In conclusion, since Jamaica has many of the same problems (plus some) as any other country regardless of it's level of theistic adherents, I'm wondering what theism could possibly be saving Jamaica from or helping Jamaica with? What is God doing for theistic countries other than to give an idea of false hope? That's what I want you to address cuz we could talk about all this other shit all day but the main issue is God's effectiveness on theistic countries; it seems there is no effect.. that countries with a higher percentage of conservative theistic beliefs are worse off as far as economy and general welfare of the society is concerned.

list these instances

Chastity, celibacy.. It exists in a number of ways greater than one. Most religions condemn having children outside of marriage (marriage is not always the best option for people) and in some cases, due to religion, people never get married at all and live a life of celibacy.

by the way abortion is illegal in jamaica.

They're still performed. You already said the government doesn't know anything so what does it matter if they're illegal or not??

There are also no figures to capture abortions performed in Jamaica, but the Board counts among its successes a fertility rate that continues to decline. The Registrar General's Department registered 41,956 births in 2009, and 42,346 the previous year.

 

[Bodhi]

@zombie

^^^ edit

 

[zombie]

jamaica suffers from the same problems but not for the same reasons most of jamaica's problems are linked to outside forces that are beyond it's control. Unlike europe's problems that are linked to the godlessness of it's people. like i have already told you abortion in jamaica is not destroying jamaica because it's native population no matter how it shrinks will still be the same. jamaica will stay jamaica. europe will not stay europe if it's native population shrinks to almost nothing.

Jamaica suffers from the same problems regardless of its theistic beliefs which means that theism does not help to eradicate the destructive forces that work against it. From there, we can easily conclude that theistic religion is not worth having since obviously belief in God does not save theistic countries from things such as poverty, poor government and unemployment.

It was never my claim that theism cancels all social problems, just that atheism creates social problems there are many reasons why jamaica has all those issues, none of which can be traced to it's atheism, europe however cannot say the same.

Immigration in Jamaica is also increasing as it is elsewhere in other countries. Jamaica also has a large emigration rate. You couple the emigration rate with the low birth rate and what do you get?

Bullshit, the immigration rate jamaica is no where near the levels of any nation in europe people come to jamaica and go back home, i don't count the decendants of jamaicans who come back to jamaica as being immigrats

In recent years, immigration has increased, coming mainly from China, Haiti, Cuba, Colombia, and Latin American countries; 20,000 Latin Americans currently reside in Jamaica. About 7,000 Americans also reside in Jamaica, as well as many first-generation American, British and Canadian of Jamaican descendant.

You also talk about so many native Jamaicans being born, but Jamaica has such a poor economy and unemployment rate, there is no surprise that Jamaica is considerably poor. And bad government certainly won't help. Despite what you say, though, Jamaican reporters claim that the birth rate is decreasing.

Jamaica is poor because of organizations like the world bank, imf interfering in our economy and politics just like they do in every other so called third world nation.

There are also no figures to capture abortions performed in Jamaica, but the Board counts among its successes a fertility rate that continues to decline. The Registrar General's Department registered 41,956 births in 2009, and 42,346 the previous year.

"From these point estimates, it can reasonably be concluded that most of the young women's fertility rates declined in the 1980s, plateaued in the early and mid-1990s, after which they started to drop again at a much slower pace into the early and mid-2000s," [executive director of the Board Dr Sharlene Jarrett] said.

In conclusion, since Jamaica has many of the same problems (plus some) as any other country regardless of it's level of theistic adherents, I'm wondering what theism is saving Jamaica from or helping Jamaica with? What is God doing for theistic countries other than to give an idea of false hope? That's what I want you to address cuz we could talk about all this other shit all day but the main issue is God's effect on theistic countries; it seems there is no effect.. that countries with a higher percentage of conservative theistic beliefs are worse off as far as economy and general welfare of the society is concerned.

The main issue is atheism affect on nations that have embraced it, vs the nations that have not, your attempt to use jamaica and europe as an example is stupid because jamaica is not comparable to any western european nation. jamaica has many many other factors that is placed on it from outside, you cannot conclude that the lower birth rate has anything to do with abortion it is not legal so you will find no real numbers on it. the lower birth rate comes from other factors,in europe abortion is legal so you can trace less native people being born to it.

list these instances

Chastity, celibacy.. It exists in a number of ways greater than one. Most religions condemn having children outside of marriage (marriage is not always the best option for people) and in some cases, due to religion, people never get married at all and live a life of celibacy.

chastity and celibacy is rare among believers,

by the way abortion is illegal in jamaica.

They're still performed.

You cannot prove that illeagal abortion affect on the population numbers of jamaica are anything but tiny. You are not only a hypocrite but a liar. You claim that immigration to jamaica will have the same effect it will have on other nations. liar. jamaica has a negative 5.17 immigration rate. why would masses of people come here if we are so poor. immigration of religious people to europe coupled with the native people godlessness and abortions rates no matter how small are destroying europe and the white race in general. jamaica has a large diaspora but i still count these people as jamaican because they help jamaica economically.

 

[Bodhi]

It was never my claim that theism cancels all social problems, just that atheism creates social problems there are many reasons why jamaica has all those issues, none of which can be traced to it's atheism, europe however cannot say the same..

If you claim that atheism creates social problems, it is a negative and its polor opposite is positive. Theism, for you, is a positive and you believe it is good for civilization. If anything is good for civilization, it should create solutions. Theism does not.

Bullshit, the immigration rate jamaica is no where near the levels of any nation in europe people come to jamaica and go back home, i don't count the decendants of jamaicans who come back to jamaica as being immigrants

In recent years, immigration has increased, coming mainly from China, Haiti, Cuba, Colombia, and Latin American countries; 20,000 Latin Americans currently reside in Jamaica. About 7,000 Americans also reside in Jamaica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica#Emigration

why would masses of people come here if we are so poor.

Ever heard of gentrification?

Jamaica is poor because of organizations like the world bank, imf interfering in our economy and politics just like they do in every other so called third world nation.

It's still poor.

The main issue is atheism affect on nations that have embraced it, vs the nations that have not

My point is Jamaica experiences these same problems. The problems have nothing to do with atheism.

chastity and celibacy is rare among believers

It remains a valid instance of religious abstinance. There was one poster that posted in this very forum, very recently who claimed to be celibate for religious purposes.

You cannot prove that.

JAMAICAN women have been secretly using a drug intended to treat something completely different, to abort unwanted pregnancies without a doctor's prescription.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news...-market-abortion-pills-in-high-demand_8906251

 

[Bodhi]

IMO, as a black man, instead of worrying about the level of godliness in other people that have nothing to do with you, firstly, you should check the level of godliness in yourself. Secondly, if you care so much about your own people you need to use your spirituality to help them out of whatever condition they're in. You on allhiphop.com using your religion as a basis to tell me to go fuck myself for not agreeing with your opinions but what are you doing on a positive tip for the well being of you and your people? If you decide to believe in a higher power, that's fine with me. Personally, I think the idea is illogical but if anything, use that idea to man up and put some bite behind your bark.

 

[Lot86]

The problem of evil.

Surah 41:10-12 says the earth was created before the stars. Modern science has disproved this.

16:15 says that God cast into the earth firm hills that would not quake or move. Modern science has proven that the earth is continuously moving and that mountains are created by the movement.

36:40 says that the sun and moon orbit the earth. Modern science has disproved this.

The example given is realistic. Are you afraid to answer it? If so, I understand. If not, would you drink without proof that the bottle does not contain poison or would you avoid taking from it?

Like I said, the poison bottle isn't worth my time, if it says Poison, it says Poison, no one in reality will drink it. So it's pointless, at least for me, to waste time on that.

Evil isn't definitive proof of anything except what humans since the beginning have caused ourselves. Now in the US, this society we live in, raised in, you're really blaming God for someone in this corrupt country going into a school and shooting it up. What we're subjected to with TV/Movies/Games/Music, the government that leads by example for a lot of evil that occur on this earth, and you really want to use that as proof that there is no God. Either way, thats not definitive proof of anything but how us Humans have caused the world we live in. So I won't be wasting my time on this either.

I'm separating this part from the next part due to how many character are allowed in each post.

 

[Bodhi]

Like I said, the poison bottle isn't worth my time, if it says Poison, it says Poison, no one in reality will drink it. So it's pointless, at least for me, to waste time on that.

Fair enough. If you were buying a used car, would you need proof that the car functions or would you just buy the car without inspecting or testing it?

Evil isn't definitive proof of anything except what humans since the beginning have caused ourselves. Now in the US, this society we live in, raised in, you're really blaming God for someone in this corrupt country going into a school and shooting it up. What we're subjected to with TV/Movies/Games/Music, the government that leads by example for a lot of evil that occur on this earth, and you really want to use that as proof that there is no God. Either way, thats not definitive proof of anything but how us Humans have caused the world we live in. So I won't be wasting my time on this either.

Is God omniscient, meaning he knows everything there is to know, even before it happens??

Is God omnipotent, meaning he has the power to do anything he pleases??

If the answer is yes to both of these questions then hypothetically speaking, before God created the universe, he knew every single detail of every event that would transpire in that universe. Being omnipotent, God had the ability to change anything he did not like. Being that God is supposedly omnibenevolent, we can assume he would create perfection. As you can see, the universe is not perfect, at least through the eyes of its inhabitants, meaning evil exists. If evil exists, there is no reason to suppose an omnibenevolent omnipotent omniscient creator exists.

Another way of looking at this is to think of perfection and imperfection instead of getting caught up in morality and the concept of good and evil. Theistic religions claim that God is perfect but his creations are imperfect. Logically speaking, perfection cannot create imperfection. To create something that is imperfect implies error. Perfection does not err.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

And what if the bottle is mislabeled, and the water is in the poison labelled bottle and vice versa?

 

[zombie]

It was never my claim that theism cancels all social problems, just that atheism creates social problems there are many reasons why jamaica has all those issues, none of which can be traced to it's atheism, europe however cannot say the same..

If you claim that atheism creates social problems, it is a negative and its polor opposite is positive. Theism, for you, is a positive and you believe it is good for civilization. If anything is good for civilization, it should create solutions. Theism does not.

Theism does create solutions, do you know how many religious organization are in jamaica feeding the hungry and taking care of orphans ? many. It's atheism that puts no responsibility on it's followers jamaica is not a fucking theocracy we do not apply god to everything we cannot even if we wanted too.

Bullshit, the immigration rate jamaica is no where near the levels of any nation in europe people come to jamaica and go back home, i don't count the decendants of jamaicans who come back to jamaica as being immigrants

In recent years, immigration has increased, coming mainly from China, Haiti, Cuba, Colombia, and Latin American countries; 20,000 Latin Americans currently reside in Jamaica. About 7,000 Americans also reside in Jamaica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica#Emigration

why would masses of people come here if we are so poor.

Ever heard of gentrification?

there is no gentrification in jamaica we have a negative immigration rate this claim is utter bullshit, we have limited amounts of immigration and many of those 7,000 so called americans are returning jamaicans and their children who i and many other jamaican count as jamaicans anyway there are about 1.5 million jamaicans living outside of jamaica

Jamaica is poor because of organizations like the world bank, imf interfering in our economy and politics just like they do in every other so called third world nation.

It's still poor.

Yes but that is unimportant to the issue at hand.

The main issue is atheism affect on nations that have embraced it, vs the nations that have not

My point is Jamaica experiences these same problems. The problems have nothing to do with atheism.

The source of these problems are different why can you not understand that, it's the source i am talking about the spring of europes problems come from the shallow godless souls of it's people, the sources of jamaica problems come from the imf and the world bank. now who controls these organizations the same shallow and godless people in europe and america.

chastity and celibacy is rare among believers

It remains a valid instance of religious abstinance. There was one poster that posted in this very forum, very recently who claimed to be celibate for religious purposes.

I'll give you this but the numbers are still so low that a few celibate people have little affect on the health of a nation

You cannot prove that.

JAMAICAN women have been secretly using a drug intended to treat something completely different, to abort unwanted pregnancies without a doctor's prescription.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news...-market-abortion-pills-in-high-demand_8906251

That article proves nothing It is impossible to know how many jamaican women used those pills for abortion. There are many pills that can be used to induce abortion all this article really proves is that these pills are being sold on the black market which means we don't know how many people are using it nor what they are using it for because it's not really an abortion pill to begin with maybe we have an ulcer problem in jamaica. we are talking about the problems of a godless society not the problems of one with god, there are two different reasons for same problems