THE DARK SIDE OF THE BIBLE- SATAN VS JEHOVAH (YOU JUDGE )

[CracceR]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

 

[CracceR]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

ok drop some non-vague prophecies that came true in our time and we can prove that it happened

ppl have been thinkin they gonna see the endtimes since aeonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

 

[beenwize]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

If the ruling elite are so evil (which they are) and they believe the Bible was true and that prophecies were coming to past then wouldn't someone in command of nuclear weapons have power to refute Bible prophecy with the touch of a button? You always claim that Bible prophecy states that America will be destroyed before the mark of the beast is implemented. If that is true then wouldn't the American/European governments who published and gave you your Bible and to the entire world already know this? The same people that set up thousands of churches all over the world don't know what you claim will happen? If so they could easily wipe whatever country you say is prophetically going to destroy them right now before it happens. Why would they wait around and let prophecy happen when they have the power to change it at any time?

 

[beenwize]

It seems like if they were against the god of the Bible and if they realized the Bible was true they would be making effort to refute Bible prophecy and utterly destroying any country that the BIble says will destroy them before it ever happens. Instead we don't see that. We see them waiting around.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

ok drop some non-vague prophecies that came true in our time and we can prove that it happened

ppl have been thinkin they gonna see the endtimes since aeonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

Egypt would never again rule over other nations

"It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations." Ezekiel 29:15

Written: between 593-571 BC

In Ezekiel 29:15, the prophet says that Egypt would recover from a desolation (perhaps Babylon's attack about 2600 years ago), but that it would never again rule over other nations. Up until the time of Ezekiel, Egypt had been a world power for centuries, dominating many nations, including Israel. But for most of the past 2500 years, Egypt has been controlled by foreign powers, including the Romans, Ottomans and Europeans. Today, Egypt is an independent nation again. In 1948, 1967 and 1973, Egypt tried to dominate Israel but was unsuccessful each time, despite the fact that Egypt is 10 times larger than Israel. Since the time of Ezekiel, Egypt no longer rules over other nations.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

If the ruling elite are so evil (which they are) and they believe the Bible was true and that prophecies were coming to past then wouldn't someone in command of nuclear weapons have power to refute Bible prophecy with the touch of a button? You always claim that Bible prophecy states that America will be destroyed before the mark of the beast is implemented. If that is true then wouldn't the American/European governments who published and gave you your Bible and to the entire world already know this? The same people that set up thousands of churches all over the world don't know what you claim will happen? If so they could easily wipe whatever country you say is prophetically going to destroy them right now before it happens. Why would they wait around and let prophecy happen when they have the power to change it at any time?

God is in control my friend. He is the soveriegn of the universe. If God keeps His eye on the sparrows, don't you think that God keeps His eye on the events of the world? Nothing will be accomplished before the appointed time that God has already ordained.

Plus when you read the prophecy of the fall of Babylon the great, you will see that it is God who directs the 10 kings to strike Babylon the Great. The 10 kings don't arbitrarly strike Babylon. It is God who puts the desire to destroy Babylon in the hearts of the 10 kings, so that they can fulfill Gods will; which is to bring judgment on Babylon the Great.

"The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled." Revelation 17:16-17

The Old Testament witness also tells us that the destruction of Babylon the Great comes from the LORD and is ordained by Him.

"I set a trap for you, Babylon, and you were caught before you knew it; you were found and captured because you opposed the Lord. The Lord has opened his arsenal and brought out the weapons of his wrath, for the Sovereign Lord Almighty has work to do in the land of the Babylonians. Come against her from afar. Break open her granaries; pile her up like heaps of grain. Completely destroy her and leave her no remnant. Kill all her young bulls; let them go down to the slaughter! Woe to them! For their day has come, the time for them to be punished." Jeremiah 50:24-27

God is in control! Therefore, when God says the word, it will be done. Not a second sooner, nor a second later. But at the command of God, the destruction will come and there will be no place to hide if you live inside of Babylon at the time of judgment. The attack is going to be sudden and without warning. It will be a normal day, just like it was on 9/11, just like it was when Pearl Harbor was attacked. But on the day God commands the 10 kings to strike, they will strike with the ferocity the world has never seen; and thus the world will be plunged into darkness and the tribulation will begin. Amen.

"Now then, listen, you lover of pleasure, lounging in your security and saying to yourself, ‘I am, and there is none besides me. I will never be a widow or suffer the loss of children.’ Both of these will overtake you in a moment, on a single day: loss of children and widowhood. They will come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and all your potent spells. You have trusted in your wickedness and have said, ‘No one sees me.’ Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you when you say to yourself, ‘I am, and there is none besides me.’ Disaster will come upon you, and you will not know how to conjure it away. A calamity will fall upon you that you cannot ward off with a ransom; a catastrophe you cannot foresee will suddenly come upon you." Isaiah 47:8-11

 

[Ajackson17]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

I just wrote it just because.

 

[Black Boy King]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

If the ruling elite are so evil (which they are) and they believe the Bible was true and that prophecies were coming to past then wouldn't someone in command of nuclear weapons have power to refute Bible prophecy with the touch of a button? You always claim that Bible prophecy states that America will be destroyed before the mark of the beast is implemented. If that is true then wouldn't the American/European governments who published and gave you your Bible and to the entire world already know this? The same people that set up thousands of churches all over the world don't know what you claim will happen? If so they could easily wipe whatever country you say is prophetically going to destroy them right now before it happens. Why would they wait around and let prophecy happen when they have the power to change it at any time?

National Security Agency

just their whole story shows that the US is scared shitless. I wonder if there is a site with news articles dedicated to their shenanigans.

 

[beenwize]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

If the ruling elite are so evil (which they are) and they believe the Bible was true and that prophecies were coming to past then wouldn't someone in command of nuclear weapons have power to refute Bible prophecy with the touch of a button? You always claim that Bible prophecy states that America will be destroyed before the mark of the beast is implemented. If that is true then wouldn't the American/European governments who published and gave you your Bible and to the entire world already know this? The same people that set up thousands of churches all over the world don't know what you claim will happen? If so they could easily wipe whatever country you say is prophetically going to destroy them right now before it happens. Why would they wait around and let prophecy happen when they have the power to change it at any time?

National Security Agency

just their whole story shows that the US is scared shitless. I wonder if there is a site with news articles dedicated to their shenanigans.

Umm if the U.S. was scared shytless then would not they destroy any country that the Bible says will destroy them? They published an

d gave you your Bible, but they don't know what's in it? You don't make any sense.

 

[Black Boy King]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

If the ruling elite are so evil (which they are) and they believe the Bible was true and that prophecies were coming to past then wouldn't someone in command of nuclear weapons have power to refute Bible prophecy with the touch of a button? You always claim that Bible prophecy states that America will be destroyed before the mark of the beast is implemented. If that is true then wouldn't the American/European governments who published and gave you your Bible and to the entire world already know this? The same people that set up thousands of churches all over the world don't know what you claim will happen? If so they could easily wipe whatever country you say is prophetically going to destroy them right now before it happens. Why would they wait around and let prophecy happen when they have the power to change it at any time?

National Security Agency

just their whole story shows that the US is scared shitless. I wonder if there is a site with news articles dedicated to their shenanigans.

Umm if the U.S. was scared shytless then would not they destroy any country that the Bible says will destroy them? They published an

d gave you your Bible, but they don't know what's in it? You don't make any sense.

Quote Scripture where it identifies which country (it's Modern English name, not biblical name) the Bible says will attack Babylon, please.

I don't think you're understanding why I brought up the NSA. They are spying/attempting to spy on everybody in the world including their allies. They are doing their best to stop this "terrorism" from happening. At least that is what I think

 

[Black Boy King]

and speaking of.... this just in...
http://rt.com/usa/nsa-monitored-world-leaders-692/

NSA spied on phones of 35 world leaders

The National Security Agency eavesdropped on hundreds of phone numbers belonging to dozens of world leaders, newly leaked documents supplied by former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden reveal.

Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote Thursday that a classified memo provided to them by Mr. Snowden suggests that the NSA encouraged officials within the United States government and intelligence community to share among their colleagues contact information pertaining to international heads of state.

According to the Guardian, the memo made reference to an unnamed US official who had reportedly supplied the NSA with over 200 numbers, including 35 belonging to world leaders.

Lol in attempt to create a "safer world", we are making enemies at a record rate

the govt is collapsing before our eyes, inside and out

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

and speaking of.... this just in...
http://rt.com/usa/nsa-monitored-world-leaders-692/

NSA spied on phones of 35 world leaders

The National Security Agency eavesdropped on hundreds of phone numbers belonging to dozens of world leaders, newly leaked documents supplied by former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden reveal.

Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote Thursday that a classified memo provided to them by Mr. Snowden suggests that the NSA encouraged officials within the United States government and intelligence community to share among their colleagues contact information pertaining to international heads of state.

According to the Guardian, the memo made reference to an unnamed US official who had reportedly supplied the NSA with over 200 numbers, including 35 belonging to world leaders.

Lol in attempt to create a "safer world", we are making enemies at a record rate

the govt is collapsing before our eyes, inside and out

Great minds think a like. You beat me to the punch my brother. But they don't hear you though! Only the wise do. Please believe it. The writing is on the wall.

But sadly, people will still blow off this sign, just like ALL the other signs of the times as it amounting to nothing. Tragic.

 

[Black Boy King]

and speaking of.... this just in...
http://rt.com/usa/nsa-monitored-world-leaders-692/

NSA spied on phones of 35 world leaders

The National Security Agency eavesdropped on hundreds of phone numbers belonging to dozens of world leaders, newly leaked documents supplied by former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden reveal.

Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote Thursday that a classified memo provided to them by Mr. Snowden suggests that the NSA encouraged officials within the United States government and intelligence community to share among their colleagues contact information pertaining to international heads of state.

According to the Guardian, the memo made reference to an unnamed US official who had reportedly supplied the NSA with over 200 numbers, including 35 belonging to world leaders.

Lol in attempt to create a "safer world", we are making enemies at a record rate

the govt is collapsing before our eyes, inside and out

Great minds think a like. You beat me to the punch my brother. But they don't hear you though! Only the wise do. Please believe it. The writing is on the wall.

But sadly, people will still blow off this sign, just like ALL the other signs of the times as it amounting to nothing. Tragic.

You're awesome, dude. Just knowing that you are on the same accord makes me feel more confident about it. I ain't afraid to say that you do and have been doing your thing on these boards without a hiccup. It's a lot of evil on here, and that's not to point fingers at anyone at all. But the spirit of Evil One is present.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

and speaking of.... this just in...
http://rt.com/usa/nsa-monitored-world-leaders-692/

NSA spied on phones of 35 world leaders

The National Security Agency eavesdropped on hundreds of phone numbers belonging to dozens of world leaders, newly leaked documents supplied by former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden reveal.

Britain’s Guardian newspaper wrote Thursday that a classified memo provided to them by Mr. Snowden suggests that the NSA encouraged officials within the United States government and intelligence community to share among their colleagues contact information pertaining to international heads of state.

According to the Guardian, the memo made reference to an unnamed US official who had reportedly supplied the NSA with over 200 numbers, including 35 belonging to world leaders.

Lol in attempt to create a "safer world", we are making enemies at a record rate

the govt is collapsing before our eyes, inside and out

Great minds think a like. You beat me to the punch my brother. But they don't hear you though! Only the wise do. Please believe it. The writing is on the wall.

But sadly, people will still blow off this sign, just like ALL the other signs of the times as it amounting to nothing. Tragic.

You're awesome, dude. Just knowing that you are on the same accord makes me feel more confident about it. I ain't afraid to say that you do and have been doing your thing on these boards without a hiccup. It's a lot of evil on here, and that's not to point fingers at anyone at all. But the spirit of Evil One is present.

I give all the glory to our LORD and Savior, King Jesus! Once I began to listen to the Spirit of God and have Him guide me into the truth, it became clear as day. The proof is in the pudding. I have literally lost count of ALL the signs that God has given. There just 2 numerous to count. But everything that we are witnessing can be corroborated with the scriptures. From the signs of the times, to only a remnant understanding, down to the scoffing of the non-believers.

Everything that was written in the word of God, was written for our learning. Thus, we can see from the examples of the past that only a few people understand what truly is happening during the times they are living in. Just look at the example of the birth of Jesus Christ. How is it that a whole nation of people who had the written word, the Torah, failed to know or understand when the birth of the messiah was taken place? But yet there were wise men in the east who didn't have the Torah, but yet God gave them SIGNS (the star) which they were looking and waiting for, that would let them know that the Messiah would be born!

Or how about Noah? God warned Him that judgment was coming and Noah preached and preached and preached and preached and preached and preached that judgment was in fact coming! But yet NOBODY, but the members of his own house believed him! Only 8 souls were saved out of probably BILLIONS of people on the earth at that time!

I can go on and on with the biblical precedent that God has set forth in the scriptures. God always has a remnant that truly understands what is taking place. Thus we can see that in our day we are on the cusp of ALL things being fulfilled! And God has marked out the starting point for the end, which is the TOTAL destruction of Babylon the Great by fire! I am 100% confident that this is the generation that will see the fulfillment. I'm not going to set any dates, but I will not ignore the signs of the times! They clearly demonstrate that the days of Babylon are SEVERELY numbered. I mean just look at this sign that God gave to the whole entire world at the 2012 Olympics:


How can anybody with a straight face look me in the eye and tell me that sign is meaningless? When has that EVER happened? And right when the part of the song says "and our flag was still there", the flag falls? LOL. I mean can it be any more clearer? And God also gives a clue about who will lead the attack, because the 2 flags that remain belong to the old Soviet Union. Russia has the arsenal, the motive, and the means to accomplish the destruction of Babylon the Great in 1 day and in 1 hour. But they will not be alone. It will be a combined effort by a conglomerate of nations. It was written, so shall it be done!

I praise God for the spirit of understanding that He has given you! Your not clueless, oblivious, or ignorant to what is going on during the times we live in. Keep on keeping watch my brother! Keep on seeking the Lord for wisdom, knowledge, and instruction! God will lead you my brother! God will guide you through what is coming! You are part of the remnant! You are 1 of those who will listen to God when He calls those who live in Babylon out of her before the destruction!

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4

As long as you stay close to the LORD, you will hear His voice when He gives you directions! God will not destroy those who are watching and praying! Keep on seeking Him my friend. He will be with you always, even unto the end of the age! Praise God forever and ever! Hallelujah!

 

[beenwize]

Interesting....

not really tho

all this over a book that was written ages ago

and nobody in our time can really prove it right or wrong

The word of God proves itself. The prophecies testify to the word of God being true. Over 25% of the word of God is prophetic. Most of it has been fulfilled already. The only things left to be fulfilled concern the end of this age and the eternal kingdom of God. And if you can't discern by now, we are on the cusp of those prophecies coming to pass soon. The signs of the times testify to that fact. Amen.

If the ruling elite are so evil (which they are) and they believe the Bible was true and that prophecies were coming to past then wouldn't someone in command of nuclear weapons have power to refute Bible prophecy with the touch of a button? You always claim that Bible prophecy states that America will be destroyed before the mark of the beast is implemented. If that is true then wouldn't the American/European governments who published and gave you your Bible and to the entire world already know this? The same people that set up thousands of churches all over the world don't know what you claim will happen? If so they could easily wipe whatever country you say is prophetically going to destroy them right now before it happens. Why would they wait around and let prophecy happen when they have the power to change it at any time?

God is in control my friend. He is the soveriegn of the universe. If God keeps His eye on the sparrows, don't you think that God keeps His eye on the events of the world? Nothing will be accomplished before the appointed time that God has already ordained.

Plus when you read the prophecy of the fall of Babylon the great, you will see that it is God who directs the 10 kings to strike Babylon the Great. The 10 kings don't arbitrarly strike Babylon. It is God who puts the desire to destroy Babylon in the hearts of the 10 kings, so that they can fulfill Gods will; which is to bring judgment on Babylon the Great.

"The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled." Revelation 17:16-17

The Old Testament witness also tells us that the destruction of Babylon the Great comes from the LORD and is ordained by Him.

"I set a trap for you, Babylon, and you were caught before you knew it; you were found and captured because you opposed the Lord. The Lord has opened his arsenal and brought out the weapons of his wrath, for the Sovereign Lord Almighty has work to do in the land of the Babylonians. Come against her from afar. Break open her granaries; pile her up like heaps of grain. Completely destroy her and leave her no remnant. Kill all her young bulls; let them go down to the slaughter! Woe to them! For their day has come, the time for them to be punished." Jeremiah 50:24-27

God is in control! Therefore, when God says the word, it will be done. Not a second sooner, nor a second later. But at the command of God, the destruction will come and there will be no place to hide if you live inside of Babylon at the time of judgment. The attack is going to be sudden and without warning. It will be a normal day, just like it was on 9/11, just like it was when Pearl Harbor was attacked. But on the day God commands the 10 kings to strike, they will strike with the ferocity the world has never seen; and thus the world will be plunged into darkness and the tribulation will begin. Amen.

"Now then, listen, you lover of pleasure, lounging in your security and saying to yourself, ‘I am, and there is none besides me. I will never be a widow or suffer the loss of children.’ Both of these will overtake you in a moment, on a single day: loss of children and widowhood. They will come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and all your potent spells. You have trusted in your wickedness and have said, ‘No one sees me.’ Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you when you say to yourself, ‘I am, and there is none besides me.’ Disaster will come upon you, and you will not know how to conjure it away. A calamity will fall upon you that you cannot ward off with a ransom; a catastrophe you cannot foresee will suddenly come upon you." Isaiah 47:8-11

You can't just pick and choose when you want to say god is in control. None of what you are posting makes any sense. The elite that rule this world are the same people that published your Bible and gave it to you and you expect me to believe you know more than they know about the book. Rome has been in control of Biblical scripture for thousands of years. IF these people know the Bible is so true they can easily fuck the entire world up at any moment if they felt that this god was after them.

You sit here and talk about all these countries of the world being destroyed. How do you not know that it is the devils plan to destroy the world because he has a short time (being the god of this world) and you have been deceived to think it's god's plan?

Revelation 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

The devil knows the Bible better than any human being alive, but that doesn't mean he has understanding. Understanding, revelation, and wisdom only come from the Holy Spirit. He is the one that takes the Word and makes it real to those who love the LORD. Amen.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

And the end of the age is not the devils plan. It is Gods plan. The scriptures declare that. Even enoch prophesied that truth before the flood of Noah.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." Jude 1:14-15

God is in control my friend. He is the sovereign. Even the devil in his rebellion is still under the control of the King of the universe. Nothing is done in Gods universe without Gods permission. That is why when you have faith in God, there is nothing to fear! Hallelujah!

"The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

2When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

3Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

4One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

5For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock." Psalm 27:1-5

 

[beenwize]

^ You don't understand what I'm talking about so nevermind.

 

[zombie]

no one knows when the world is going to end and interpreating the signs of the times is ultimately counter productive.