Let's End The Debate: Kareem Abdul Jabbar vs Michael Jordan

[Peace_79]

I'm not quoting that wikipedia page you just posted.Magic was not a good defender he has no case whatsoever for being better than jordan NONE AT ALL.

NO HE DID NOT. That's a media fairy tale. See my other posts about Pippen. TLDR version: Pippen's 94 Bulls only loss 2 more games without Jordan, had a higher defensive rating and everyone enjoyed a higher shooting percentage with Pippen distributing the ball more evenly and in a timely manner regarding time on the shot clock. Pippen made Pippen and won in the playoffs without Jordan.

Yes he did and stop mentioning the media I'm not impressionable and let whitey dictated media control my thoughts.Pippen would not be a hall of fame player if he didn't play with jordan,pippen had no clutch in him he routinely froze up when the game was on the line his jumper was suspect as fuck,pippen had Finals where he was scoring 15-16 ppg and shooting 35% from the field,but he had that one great season in 94 when the bulls won 55 games with 3 all stars(pip,armstrong,grant) and steve kerr and kukoc added to a 3x championship team and lost in the 2nd round that everybody loves to bring up but they always forget the next season when the bulls were 34-31 and a 6 seed before mike returned.

This that ETHER, bruh...

Took the favorite argument against Jordan

(a shallow regular season record & a 2nd round exit) and absolutely obliterated it.

Y'all know the Toronto Raptors won close to 60 games last year, too right??? ...

... The TORONTO RAPTORS

50 Win season + 2nd Rd exit is not even comparable to what Jordan did with the Bulls in his Prime.

The "He needed Pippen" argument devaluing Jordan is terrible

 

[the_focused_one]

50 point games Jordan 39 Kareem 10

60 point games Jordan 5,Kareem 0!!!!!

Nba final mvp's Jordan 6 Kareem 2

Just say "I prefer Kareem over jordan cuz he was a militant in the 60's-70's" there's no way in hell he's a better basketball player than mike compare kareem to wilt and them not the Goat. Jordan was more dominant,more versatile,won the same amount of titles as the alpha while kareem was 2nd fiddle for half his titles. We're done here

All Star Games Kareem 19 Jordan 14

Season MVP Kareem 6 Jordan 5

All NBA Teams Kareem 15 Jordan 11

Blocks Leader Kareem 4 Jordan 0

I can cherry pick stats too bro. Just the fact that I can also shows that Kareem is right up there with Jordan. We all know Jordan is the game's greatest scorer in the modern era, no one is arguing that. I don't care about Kareem's militancy, his name change, his acting, none of that shit. I'm just talking about basketball home skillet.

 

[5 Grand]

You can cherry pick stats all day but you can't deny that Kareem is the all time points leader.

Out of all the players that have ever played the game, Kareem has the most points.

Thats saying something.

 

[Shizlansky]

6 Rings

6 Finals MVP

5 MVPs. None on a losing team that missed the playoffs.

 

[Shizlansky]

MJ 30.1 PPG

KAJ 24.4

Niggas forgetting MJ was tied for number 1 in points PPG until he came back.

And MJ played less years with better accolades.

 

[usmarin3]

Kareem has had a greater career, MJ had the bigger impact. What do prefer, the accomplishments which are tangible or do you go with the eye test.

I'm gonna go with accomplishments and say Kareem is the goat. I feel as if the who is the greatest debate is a generational thing. People who grew up on Russell, Wilt, Big O,etc will say they're the greatest. Kareems accomplishments are undeniable though.

 

[usmarin3]

Niggas need to stop using that ring argument in debates too, because i don't see what team accomplishments have to do with individual greatness. Too much shit goes into winning rings that's out of your control.

 

[DaBull]

Kareem has had a greater career, MJ had the bigger impact. What do prefer, the accomplishments which are tangible or do you go with the eye test.

bolded is facts

the discussion is the greatest basketball player to ever live

Kareem won 3 titles in College where MJ was a role player behind Worthy and Perkins

 

[its....JOHN B]

You can cherry pick stats all day but you can't deny that Kareem is the all time points leader.

Out of all the players that have ever played the game, Kareem has the most points.

Thats saying something.

You can't deny that if Mike never retired he would of blew that away too, you can't deny that Mike has more playoff points in 58 less games

 

[its....JOHN B]

Kareem has had a greater career, MJ had the bigger impact. What do prefer, the accomplishments which are tangible or do you go with the eye test.

bolded is facts

the discussion is the greatest basketball player to ever live

Kareem won 3 titles in College where MJ was a role player behind Worthy and Perkins

Longer career, not better career, stop it

 

[the_focused_one]

Niggas need to stop using that ring argument in debates too, because i don't see what team accomplishments have to do with individual greatness. Too much shit goes into winning rings that's out of your control.

Co-Sign to the fullest. In Baseball and Football, ring logic is almost never given in any argument. People compare Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds based on their individual greatness. No one is going to sit there and say Hideki Matsui is a better outfielder than Ken Griffey Jr. because he got a ring and was the 09 World Series MVP.

Same with Football. No one in their right mind thinks Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback than Dan Marino, or Roger Craig is a better running back than Barry Sanders because of rings.

I know in basketball, a star can have more of an impact because of small rosters and playing offense and defense on the floor, but it is still a team game. Would anyone like to make the claim that Derek Fisher is a better player than John Stockton because of his 5 rings? Of course not...

But when it comes to Jordan... ESPN loves to tell you that 6 rings and 2 3peats are all that matter... Until you bring up Russell's 11 and his 8peat... Then it's about MVPs... Until you bring up Jabbar having more regular season MVPs... Then it's about scoring and ppg... Until you bring up Chamberlain... Then it's about Finals MVPs...

And don't bother talking about LeBron, because then it goes back to Rings... The narrative in mainstream media always changes to favor Jordan. If Lebron were to get 7 rings, 7 Finals MVPs, and 6 Season MVPs, the narrative would be "But he didn't get 10 scoring titles." If LeBron got those as well, then it would be "Well he never won defensive player of the year!"

And if, by some miracle, LeBron gets all the physical hardware that puts him above Jordan once and for all, Stephen A. would still be dick riding Jordan, saying "Jordan never played a game 7 in the Finals" or "Lebron is 7 for 11 and Michael is 6 for 6," as if getting to the Finals and losing is somehow a discredit and failure on LeBron's part, regardless of crap/ under powered teams.

Again, Jordan is Top 5 in my personal list, but I just can't stand how basketball is the only sport that fails to acknowledge the progress and evolution of its game to protect its biggest commercial star of the past.

Jordan has become the Hulk Hogan of the NBA. Yes he was that dude 20 years ago, but because of the money he generates with his branding, no one else is allowed to get over and the new guys are always compared to him negatively.

 

[its....JOHN B]

Niggas need to stop using that ring argument in debates too, because i don't see what team accomplishments have to do with individual greatness. Too much shit goes into winning rings that's out of your control.

Co-Sign to the fullest. In Baseball and Football, ring logic is almost never given in any argument. People compare Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds based on their individual greatness. No one is going to sit there and say Hideki Matsui is a better outfielder than Ken Griffey Jr. because he got a ring and was the 09 World Series MVP.

Same with Football. No one in their right mind thinks Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback than Dan Marino, or Roger Craig is a better running back than Barry Sanders because of rings.

I know in basketball, a star can have more of an impact because of small rosters and playing offense and defense on the floor, but it is still a team game. Would anyone like to make the claim that Derek Fisher is a better player than John Stockton because of his 5 rings? Of course not...

But when it comes to Jordan... ESPN loves to tell you that 6 rings and 2 3peats are all that matter... Until you bring up Russell's 11 and his 8peat... Then it's about MVPs... Until you bring up Jabbar having more regular season MVPs... Then it's about scoring and ppg... Until you bring up Chamberlain... Then it's about Finals MVPs...

And don't bother talking about LeBron, because then it goes back to Rings... The narrative in mainstream media always changes to favor Jordan. If Lebron were to get 7 rings, 7 Finals MVPs, and 6 Season MVPs, the narrative would be "But he didn't get 10 scoring titles." If LeBron got those as well, then it would be "Well he never won defensive player of the year!"

And if, by some miracle, LeBron gets all the physical hardware that puts him above Jordan once and for all, Stephen A. would still be dick riding Jordan, saying "Jordan never played a game 7 in the Finals" or "Lebron is 7 for 11 and Michael is 6 for 6," as if getting to the Finals and losing is somehow a discredit and failure on LeBron's part, regardless of crap/ under powered teams.

Again, Jordan is Top 5 in my personal list, but I just can't stand how basketball is the only sport that fails to acknowledge the progress and evolution of its game to protect its biggest commercial star of the past.

Jordan has become the Hulk Hogan of the NBA. Yes he was that dude 20 years ago, but because of the money he generates with his branding, no one else is allowed to get over and the new guys are always compared to him negatively.

There's a lot more variables involved in those other sports, ok so you think winning shouldn't mean everything well Jordan's stats in 15 seasons are more impressive than Kareem's in 20, Jordan's stats in the playoffs when it mattered most in are more impressive, intangibles go to Jordan as well, 6 rings 6 MVP's to Kareem's 2 which means Jordan knew how to get the most out of his teammates, Kareem was carried to most of his, as a collective stats/rings/intangibles/impact Jordan trumps all period

 

[the_focused_one]

There's a lot more variables involved in those other sports, ok so you think winning shouldn't mean everything well Jordan's stats in 15 seasons are more impressive than Kareem's in 20

I don't necessarily disagree with this. But what about Russell being 11 for 13 with an 8-peat and 2 chips as a player coach? Why does no one talk about him as the GOAT if it's about winning it all? Literally no one has come close to these numbers. I mean the Finals MVP is NAMED after him...

Jordan's stats in the playoffs when it mattered most in are more impressive, intangibles go to Jordan as well, 6 rings 6 MVP's to Kareem's 2 which means Jordan knew how to get the most out of his teammates, Kareem was carried to most of his, as a collective stats/rings/intangibles/impact Jordan trumps all period

See when you get into intangibles, you start inducing qualities based on the ring logic. The MVP award does not infer that you got the most out of your teammates. Andre Iguodala got the Finals MVP award last year because he put a significant lock on LeBron James and shifted the momentum of the entire series through his defense. Iggy didn't carry anyone- he just performed the one task that no one else could do and shined in his moment.

Anyone that objectively watched basketball back then will tell you that Jordan did not make his teammates better. Yes you can argue that Jordan brought Kerr and Paxon and Longley and others along for the ride, but Jordan did not make Pippen, Rodman, Grant, or Harper any better through his play. Jordan was a high volume shooter and scorer and made the most impact of everyone on the scoreboard, ON TOP of the fact that he was also a great perimeter defender. It was the combination of his amazing play on both sides of the court and the fact that his team won the finals that made him the MVP every time. He was the best player on the best team and owned in most of his finals series.

As for Kareem, in his later years, he did have a great cast, including a fellow top 5 player on his squad that was his point guard in Magic and another top 50 player as his forward in Worthy. The Lakers, especially with Magic, played much more selfless ball than the Bulls, so Kareem seldom needed to dominate to guarantee victory. Even in his last year, when the Pistons swept the Lakers in the finals, Kareem was averaging 12/5/2 on 26 minutes a game. He was hardly being "carried," even at 41 years old.

 

[its....JOHN B]

And I agree with Russell not being considered more, I at least think it's an atrocity that Wilt was considered better because of stats, and even though some stats that would make Russ look a lot better weren't recorded then (blocks) the little bit that stats count in the argument he just doesn't have over Jordan, Jordan was pretty close to being as great a leader in a time the league lets just be honest was more talent heavy but also has the stats to show how dynamic a player he was on top of being a leader, Russ doesn't have the sexy stats but he was the centerpiece to each and every one of those rings but unfortunately intangibles don't show up on paper, casual fans just go straight to the stat sheet and the worst part is people like to bring up all the hall of famers Russ played with being the reason for those rings BUT I've seen posters say they would of beat Cousy one on one if they played at that time, I've never heard anyone bring up Sam Jones, KC Jones, Tommy Heinsohn, etc... in goat debates, in that time frame there weren't a lot of teams the level of competition was the same the difference is Russ elevated his players to hof status and Wilt didn't, the great Wilt Chamberlain got traded twice because he was a detriment to his teams, he would stop playing defense because he was scared to foul out of games, Wilt was obsessed with stats Russ was obsessed with winning and to me winning is everything and it's just too lopsided in that department

 

[Shizlansky]

It's more talent in the league today than in the 90s

It was better big men but not overall more talent.

 

[its....JOHN B]

The similarities between Red and Russ and Pop and Duncan is crazy, Pop and Duncan are literally a modern day Red and Russ

 

[5 Grand]

I can vaguely remember the early 80s. I grew up in Boston (Newton Centre, MA) so the Celtics were huge in the 80s. Little known fact; most Black people in Boston didn't like the Celtics in the 80s because they didn't have enough brothers on the team.

Anyway, from how I remember it, Kareem was a beast in the early 80s and they won a few championships. I think they won in 80, 82, 85, 87 and 88. Jabbar had his hands full guarding Daryl Dawkins, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwan, Ralph Sampson, Robert Parish and John Salley. Toward the end of the 80s he wasn't a "beast" but he was still good for 10-15 points, rebounds and blocks.

What I'm saying is that I remember the second half of Kareem's career. I can remember Magic passing him the ball and he'd hit that skyhook like it was automatic.

Here's a short lil documentary about Kareem's skyhook.

 

[its....JOHN B]

I can vaguely remember the early 80s. I grew up in Boston (Newton Centre, MA) so the Celtics were huge in the 80s. Little known fact; most Black people in Boston didn't like the Celtics in the 80s because they didn't have enough brothers on the team.

Anyway, from how I remember it, Kareem was a beast in the early 80s and they won a few championships. I think they won in 80, 82, 85, 87 and 88. Jabbar had his hands full guarding Daryl Dawkins, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwan, Ralph Sampson, Robert Parish and John Salley. Toward the end of the 80s he wasn't a "beast" but he was still good for 10-15 points, rebounds and blocks.

What I'm saying is that I remember the second half of Kareem's career. I can remember Magic passing him the ball and he'd hit that skyhook like it was automatic.

Here's a short lil documentary about Kareem's skyhook.

No one said he sucked bruh

 

[its....JOHN B]

Kevin Garnett's best statistical season he averaged 24/14/5/1.5/2.2, Kevin Garnett's best season period he averaged 19/9/3.5/1.5/1.3 where he sacrificed stats for winning not because he fell off, he changed the whole culture of a franchise, led one of the great defensive teams of this generation and was the centerpiece to his one and only championship

 

[dalyricalbandit]

i could only imagine had might not retired what his numbers wouldve looked like (injury free).

but even with those retirements ill still pick Mike