MontyM.Max
New member
Only nigga you should compare to Mike is Magic. Kareem definitely doesn't get the credit he's due though.
its....JOHN B
New member
Mike is the goat period.
Tommy bilfiger
New member
Notice not one person saying kareem has made a case talking basketball skills/dominance that kaj is better than Jordan it's Wheaties,Space Jam,Coon,Nike commercials etc that's their go to reply every rip
Is kaj career neck and neck with accolades? no doubt is he better basketball player than Mike? Nah you got dudes saying magic is better than jordan which is laughable when magic said himself mike the Goat
Is kaj career neck and neck with accolades? no doubt is he better basketball player than Mike? Nah you got dudes saying magic is better than jordan which is laughable when magic said himself mike the Goat
PanchoYoSancho
New member
Tommy bilfiger;8970781 said:
Magic also said Kobe's the greatest Laker ever. He says a lot of dumb shit. Don't make it true.
DaBull;8970261 said:
Nah, Bill Russell and Wilt didn't even have Kareem in their top 5 ATL when they were interviewed in '97; Magic (and to a degree Oscar) deserves more credit than Kareem does for him winning titles and being on a contender bc Kareem didn't make his teammates better what so ever, the guy was the definition of hollow stats in the 70s post-Oscar/pre-Magic (his Prime years) and his MVPs were suspect, he won an MVP in '76 when his team was below .500 and missed the playoffs.
Im more familiar with his Laker years than Bucks (though i do know Dave Cowens sonnin him in G7 of the Finals in '74 that gets swept under the rug), and to my knowledge if he wasnt missin the playoffs Kareem was gettin bounced in the 1st/2nd round before Magic arrived despite having great players around him in Gail Goodrich, Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley, Jaamal Wilkes, Lou Hudson etc...
Kareem also didn't even try on defense if he wasn't gettin his shots, point is, Kareem was a dominant offensive player that couldn't lead his team and make them close to a contender w/o two ATG PGs..
In a All Time fantasy draft if i had a team with a bunch of good players but it doesnt have top 15 All Time talent on it, then there's about 8-10 players All Time i would pick to lead my team over Kareem, and if i had a team full of scrubs then I'm not even thinkin about takin Kareem unless you like hollow stats, the 9th/8th seed and your team goin home in 5.
MJ>>>>
Disclaimer -
So Let's ignore the eye test... Because if you include that, IMO there isn't much of a case for KAJ.
For all intents and purposes, let's call their career accolades and accomplishments EVEN ... Jordan did a hell of a lot with less time, KAJ did more (in some areas) with longevity.
To me the true points of contention lie in the areas of their supporting casts and their respective dominance - dominance at their position, dominance of their era, and dominance in terms of value to their team.
Both were definitely dominant in their era and at their position - not much debate there.
However, most would argue that KAJ had the better supporting cast ...
(remember they accomplished roughly the same amount, one had a much better team)
But what's most damning is that many would argue that KAJ played with a player that was better than he was and the A1 player on his championship teams in LA.
You simply can't argue that with Jordan.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Put it to you this way, swap Magic for Pippen on those Bulls and Laker teams.
Honestly ... Between Jordan and Magic, who would be the A1/ best player on the Bulls?...
Ok... How many rings do the Lakers win with Pippen instead of Magic? ...
Just let that marinate for a minute.
College and HS careers don't mean shit to me. That doesn't factor into my decision of who is the greater player All Time.
So Let's ignore the eye test... Because if you include that, IMO there isn't much of a case for KAJ.
For all intents and purposes, let's call their career accolades and accomplishments EVEN ... Jordan did a hell of a lot with less time, KAJ did more (in some areas) with longevity.
To me the true points of contention lie in the areas of their supporting casts and their respective dominance - dominance at their position, dominance of their era, and dominance in terms of value to their team.
Both were definitely dominant in their era and at their position - not much debate there.
However, most would argue that KAJ had the better supporting cast ...
(remember they accomplished roughly the same amount, one had a much better team)
But what's most damning is that many would argue that KAJ played with a player that was better than he was and the A1 player on his championship teams in LA.
You simply can't argue that with Jordan.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Put it to you this way, swap Magic for Pippen on those Bulls and Laker teams.
Honestly ... Between Jordan and Magic, who would be the A1/ best player on the Bulls?...
Ok... How many rings do the Lakers win with Pippen instead of Magic? ...
Just let that marinate for a minute.
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the_focused_one
New member
Objectively speaking Kareem is the GOAT.
There are also cases to be made for Magic and Bill Russell being BETTER than Jordan, if not at least as good. The old school OGs of the game are up there as well, but have been forgotten about because the media was barely covering the NBA, let alone worshiping one particular player for an entire decade because it was "good for business."
As a couple of posters before have said, Michael Jordan NEVER won ANYTHING without Scottie Pippen. Jordan absolutely could not beat Larry Bird or Isiah Thomas until both were old and their teams injured. It was the perfect storm that right as the old guard got old and injured, the Bulls got Scottie AND Phil AND the NBA EXPANDED by 6 teams between '89-95, which also diluted the talent pool and the Bulls became more complete just as teams were being spread thin and losing talent.
Also, Jordan's first ring came against a shell of the 80s Lakers. Yeah Magic was there (and BALLED on Jordan when playing one on one BTW), but Cooper, Nixon, Wilkes, Rambis, and Kareem were all gone by then. And Byron Scott and James Worthy were both hurt that series and didn't even play the final game. Jordan did not beat SHOWTIME.
Jordan is Top 5 in my book, but I don't buy into the Disney Hero/ Untouchable/ Stephen A. Smith's God-like figure that the media makes Jordan out to be. He was the best player of the 1990s and ONE of the greatest ever. That's it.
It's all about the branding of his image...
"[/url]
There are also cases to be made for Magic and Bill Russell being BETTER than Jordan, if not at least as good. The old school OGs of the game are up there as well, but have been forgotten about because the media was barely covering the NBA, let alone worshiping one particular player for an entire decade because it was "good for business."
As a couple of posters before have said, Michael Jordan NEVER won ANYTHING without Scottie Pippen. Jordan absolutely could not beat Larry Bird or Isiah Thomas until both were old and their teams injured. It was the perfect storm that right as the old guard got old and injured, the Bulls got Scottie AND Phil AND the NBA EXPANDED by 6 teams between '89-95, which also diluted the talent pool and the Bulls became more complete just as teams were being spread thin and losing talent.
Also, Jordan's first ring came against a shell of the 80s Lakers. Yeah Magic was there (and BALLED on Jordan when playing one on one BTW), but Cooper, Nixon, Wilkes, Rambis, and Kareem were all gone by then. And Byron Scott and James Worthy were both hurt that series and didn't even play the final game. Jordan did not beat SHOWTIME.
Jordan is Top 5 in my book, but I don't buy into the Disney Hero/ Untouchable/ Stephen A. Smith's God-like figure that the media makes Jordan out to be. He was the best player of the 1990s and ONE of the greatest ever. That's it.
It's all about the branding of his image...
"[/url]
Breezy_Kilroy
New member
Jordan ain't never had a supporting cast as strong as LA, Boston, or Detroit in the 80s.
That's why he was going home every year. People seem to ignore this fact. Of course he didn't play Showtime! He didn't have a team good enough to compete with them.
Boston and LA where always in the race because they had historically great teams. That is a fact.
"He didnt start winning til he got Pippen"
That's simply not true.
Pippen was drafted in 87 and its not like he came through and crushed the buildings.
Pippen didn't become the legit second best player til like his 3rd year when he was selected an All-Star.
Bulls didn't win their first ship til 91 so where does that argument come from that Jordan didn't win til Pippen got there?
That's why he was going home every year. People seem to ignore this fact. Of course he didn't play Showtime! He didn't have a team good enough to compete with them.
Boston and LA where always in the race because they had historically great teams. That is a fact.
"He didnt start winning til he got Pippen"
That's simply not true.
Pippen was drafted in 87 and its not like he came through and crushed the buildings.
Pippen didn't become the legit second best player til like his 3rd year when he was selected an All-Star.
Bulls didn't win their first ship til 91 so where does that argument come from that Jordan didn't win til Pippen got there?
the_focused_one
New member
Shizlansky
New member
KAJ have an MVP on a losing team that missed the playoffs.
the_focused_one
New member
Shizlansky;8974203 said:
Yeah... Did Jordan ever do that?
NothingButTheTruth
New member
Lol @ making an argument comparing skill for skill, as if they don't play completely different positions. Let's see, Kareem is better at all of the big man stuff and Jordan is better at all of the guard stuff. Basketball accolades? Kareem edges it.
At the end of the day, I'm taking an elite Center over an elite guard, as elite Centers are far more dominant by design (they're the biggest things on the court). The elite big man locks the paint down making it hard for the entire team to drive to the basket, and usually dominates the opposition by putting their big man in foul trouble, taking away their defensive anchor, which shifts the entire dynamic of the game.
At the end of the day, I'm taking an elite Center over an elite guard, as elite Centers are far more dominant by design (they're the biggest things on the court). The elite big man locks the paint down making it hard for the entire team to drive to the basket, and usually dominates the opposition by putting their big man in foul trouble, taking away their defensive anchor, which shifts the entire dynamic of the game.
Tommy bilfiger
New member
the_focused_one;8973385 said:
What did kareem win without Oscar or Magic? NOTHING.Jordan took his team to the playoffs 2 years without Pippen when he was 23-25 years old kaj was losing in the 1st/2nd round and missed the playoffs before magic arrived to sustain his career
The expansion talking point is trash the hornets,magic and heat were all playoff teams in the early to mid 90's and all were east teams the bulls faced the magic and heat in the ecf that "diluted talent" point is awful
Jordan couldn't beat the celtics or pistons because his team was young and not as deep or experienced,that should go without saying.
Tommy bilfiger
New member
Anybody peep how they say the same shit? lol commercials,marketing,nike etc explain how kareem is the better basketball player than mike without talking about space jam & air jordans
Again who was the better playoff/finals performer,scorer,defender,more dominant and who had teams creating rules to stop them? Jordan made pippen a hall of famer kareem benefited from a top 2-3 pg that's why magic won more mvp's and finals mvp's than kareem.Lakers went to the Wcf the year after kaj retired and the finals 2 years after he retired but yea he's "the goat" FOH.Dudes put kareem on personal pedestals cuz he was militant there's no case for him being better than jordan skill wise he was not more dominant,more influential and didn't impact his team more than jordan.
Again who was the better playoff/finals performer,scorer,defender,more dominant and who had teams creating rules to stop them? Jordan made pippen a hall of famer kareem benefited from a top 2-3 pg that's why magic won more mvp's and finals mvp's than kareem.Lakers went to the Wcf the year after kaj retired and the finals 2 years after he retired but yea he's "the goat" FOH.Dudes put kareem on personal pedestals cuz he was militant there's no case for him being better than jordan skill wise he was not more dominant,more influential and didn't impact his team more than jordan.
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dalyricalbandit
Moderator
Michael
Kareem
Kareem
the_focused_one
New member
Tommy bilfiger;8975327 said:
I already explained in detail without once mentioning Space Jam and Air Jordans. However, with that said, Marketing is a HUGE reason for talking about Jordan the way ESPN and mainstream media does today. The public rarely steers any narrative in media- it's always the gatekeepers, and ESPN and many, many other companies had a huge stake in Jordan being seen as the Alpha and Omega of basketball long before the two 3-peats...
The Jordan Rules were two basic principles set by the Pistons.
1) If Jordan goes left to the paint, guard him as best as possible without letting him actually get to the basket. No double team, as he wasn't as good shooting from the left side or using his left hand. In the man to man era, Jordan ran a lot of flex clear out plays, and in so doing, the area he drove in was often deserted. Since he didn't like to pass until the shot clock was almost up, Jordan would be forced into bad shots, rushed shots by teammates, or turnover prone if he was well defended on his left.
2) If Jordan went right, immediately commit to a double team and if he gets to the paint, put his ass on the floor so he thinks twice. This was often worth it, because Jordan was going to get a foul called regardless if anyone touched him or not in the paint, so Detroit figured out that it would be best to get in his head early in the game to not drive to his right where he was more sure handed.
That's it. The Jordan rules were not that complicated or robust. It was a successful strategy by Detroit that gets a little overblown. It wouldn't even be necessary today with zone defenses.
NO HE DID NOT. That's a media fairy tale. See my other posts about Pippen. TLDR version: Pippen's 94 Bulls only loss 2 more games without Jordan, had a higher defensive rating and everyone enjoyed a higher shooting percentage with Pippen distributing the ball more evenly and in a timely manner regarding time on the shot clock. Pippen made Pippen and won in the playoffs without Jordan.
Yes, Kareem and Magic both have a case for being BETTER than Jordan, so of course they benefited from having each other and cancelled each other out for team impact at times. And yes Magic had more Finals MVPs, but Kareem has more season MVPs that both Michael and Magic.
I don't know what your criteria is for being more dominant because they both dominated at completely different aspects of the game. If you took away the scoring stats, Kareem still has all-star stats for rebounds and blocks, especially the first half of his career.
As for more influential... I don't know how you measure that. I guess you could say Michael spawned Kobe, but that would be like saying Kareem spawned Duncan... not going there.
As for impacting his team, yeah I guess Jordan gets that? Pippen was awfully close to a championship run without him, but didn't get it. Magic got to the Finals without Kareem, but couldn't do much with all his old roster gone and Scott and Worthy injured. I guess Jordan gets this one.
Jordan and Kareem are two of the greatest players ever. It's fine to take Michael over Kareem, but to downplay Jabbar's greatness and then oversell Jordan is just wrong.
Tommy bilfiger
New member
I'm not quoting that wikipedia page you just posted.Magic was not a good defender he has no case whatsoever for being better than jordan NONE AT ALL.
Yes he did and stop mentioning the media I'm not impressionable and let whitey dictated media control my thoughts.Pippen would not be a hall of fame player if he didn't play with jordan,pippen had no clutch in him he routinely froze up when the game was on the line his jumper was suspect as fuck,pippen had Finals where he was scoring 15-16 ppg and shooting 35% from the field,but he had that one great season in 94 when the bulls won 55 games with 3 all stars(pip,armstrong,grant) and steve kerr and kukoc added to a 3x championship team and lost in the 2nd round that everybody loves to bring up but they always forget the next season when the bulls were 34-31 and a 6 seed before mike returned.
Jordan led the league in scoring 10x,kareem 2x
Jordan career high 69 points,Kareem 55
Kareem dominated nothing he led the league in rebounds ONCE!!! How is he the Goat? based off what? influence? No,Dominance? No,6 championships and he was the best player for 2-3 of them what makes him the goat?
+ Mike has the highest scoring ppg in the playoffs,highest ppg ever,had better finals numbers,nba record for points scored in a playoff game,had 17 triple doubles in a season(7 in a row) and finished #1 in scoring and #10 in assists in the same season,led the league in scoring and won dpoy in the same year, 1st guard ever with 100 blocks and 200+ steals in a season. I aint even mention Jordan hitting game winning playoff series ending shots multiple shots to win closeout games and series.
basically
Yes he did and stop mentioning the media I'm not impressionable and let whitey dictated media control my thoughts.Pippen would not be a hall of fame player if he didn't play with jordan,pippen had no clutch in him he routinely froze up when the game was on the line his jumper was suspect as fuck,pippen had Finals where he was scoring 15-16 ppg and shooting 35% from the field,but he had that one great season in 94 when the bulls won 55 games with 3 all stars(pip,armstrong,grant) and steve kerr and kukoc added to a 3x championship team and lost in the 2nd round that everybody loves to bring up but they always forget the next season when the bulls were 34-31 and a 6 seed before mike returned.
Jordan led the league in scoring 10x,kareem 2x
Jordan career high 69 points,Kareem 55
Kareem dominated nothing he led the league in rebounds ONCE!!! How is he the Goat? based off what? influence? No,Dominance? No,6 championships and he was the best player for 2-3 of them what makes him the goat?
+ Mike has the highest scoring ppg in the playoffs,highest ppg ever,had better finals numbers,nba record for points scored in a playoff game,had 17 triple doubles in a season(7 in a row) and finished #1 in scoring and #10 in assists in the same season,led the league in scoring and won dpoy in the same year, 1st guard ever with 100 blocks and 200+ steals in a season. I aint even mention Jordan hitting game winning playoff series ending shots multiple shots to win closeout games and series.
basically
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT3MH8876YI
Tommy bilfiger
New member
50 point games Jordan 39 Kareem 10
60 point games Jordan 5,Kareem 0!!!!!
Nba final mvp's Jordan 6 Kareem 2
Just say "I prefer Kareem over jordan cuz he was a militant in the 60's-70's" there's no way in hell he's a better basketball player than mike compare kareem to wilt and them not the Goat.Jordan was more dominant,more versatile,won the same amount of titles as the alpha while kareem was 2nd fiddle for half his titles.We're done here
60 point games Jordan 5,Kareem 0!!!!!
Nba final mvp's Jordan 6 Kareem 2
Just say "I prefer Kareem over jordan cuz he was a militant in the 60's-70's" there's no way in hell he's a better basketball player than mike compare kareem to wilt and them not the Goat.Jordan was more dominant,more versatile,won the same amount of titles as the alpha while kareem was 2nd fiddle for half his titles.We're done here
