If you believe the Devil will punish you in hell..

[zombie]

This is where we disagree the bible clears says that we become a new creature i read that to mean everything about what you really are is new in gods eyes which means new spirit and soul so fundamentally you are a new being.

So when you make a decision to follow Christ, what happens to your old soul and where does this new one come from? Also, if you were a believer before and you were "reborn", what happens to your reborn soul if you become an atheist?

If you are reborn and absolutely everything changes, you are no longer you and you are basically switched out for something or someone else. In that case, God should have created the new soul from jump, especially since he knew it would happen. Essentially, the new soul didnt learn anything since it never was the old soul to begin with.

The ability to be re-born is a gift given to humans and when we are everything changes.

That's not a gift given to anybody. If what you're saying is that when you make a decision to follow Christ, you are destroyed and someone else replaces you, neither soul really gains anything from it.

As for Lucifer becoming satan, GOD made lucifer and the other angels knowing they could rebel he knew that future could come to pass since angels have freewill god also must have know of the possibility that he would not rebel.

which future became reality was lucifers choice.

No, if god is omniscient, he knew what choice lucifer would make before he made it. Since he knew that, and still created him, he's responsible. We've been through this open theism thing and it doesnt work unless you're willing to give up God's omniscience.

Open theism works perfectly,logically you limit your understanding of what it means to be omniscient so that you can make you argument. Omniscient means you have all knowledge the future is not existent as fact so god knows it as possiblity, this goes for all futures except those god has chosen to bring into existence. God's omniscientence is a function of his omnipotence.God would not destroy any intelligence just based on possibiliy so therfore god could not simply destroy lucifer before he did anything wrong.

When you are reborn you are not destroyed WHAT "YOU" are changes in gods eyes like a caterpiller changes into a butterfly. Your old soul changes into something new in gods eyes you now have the holy spirit like a butterfly has wings. when the catterpiller becomes the butterfly it is not destroyed however is it fundamentally changed. It's nature is different, i am speaking spiritually here. when i say everything changes i was talking spiritually everything changes, god will not deal with you in the same manner when you die. You have to choose this possibility the rules of the universe do not apply to you in the same way

 

[Bodhi]

Omniscience means you know everything, period.

A caterpillar changes into a butterfly but it's the same being.

 

[zombie]

Omniscience means you know everything, period.

A caterpillar changes into a butterfly but it's the same being.

Omniscience means you know everything, period.

A caterpillar changes into a butterfly but it's the same being.

Yeah but what is this thing we call the "future" it is possibilities not actualities.

The nature of catterpillar is nothing like the nature of a butterfly and like i said earlier the soul is eternal in that it always exist that does not mean that it is eternally the same.

and change does not equal destruction.

 

[Bodhi]

The future is information and if you are omniscient and there is information to know, you know it.

The nature of a fetus is not exactly like that of an elderly person but they are one and the same being.

Aha! So the soul, as you say, always exists. That is what I've been telling you. If the soul always exists, it is the same soul regardless of what name you give it to signify the character that manifests or is projected from it. So in essence, lucifer and Satan are one and the same being.

Thank you for your time.

 

[zombie]

The future is information and if you are omniscient and there is information to know, you know it.

The nature of a fetus is not exactly like that of an elderly person but they are one and the same being.

Aha! So the soul, as you say, always exists. That is what I've been telling you. If the soul always exists, it is the same soul regardless of what name you give it to signify the character that manifests or is projected from it. So in essence, lucifer and Satan are one and the same being.

Thank you for your time.

The future is not information what you have described is knowledge but knowledge does not have to be fact in other words knowledge does not have to actually BE. You can have knowledge of a possiblity that does not mean that that possibilty is real. A fetus is a human and elderly person is a human a fetus is just a tiny human

I have told you already that angels don't have souls AND THAT they are spirits. lucifer chose to change into satan god knew of this possibilty but being that god is good he chose not to punish lucifer until lucifer chose to rebel.

FACE it i stumped you and your understanding of theology is poor.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

"So/so hasn't been the same since whateverwhatever."

We hear it throughout our lives that people have changed, they aren't who they used to be, for better or worse.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

They stopped being who they used to be.

 

[Bodhi]

The future is not information what you have described is knowledge but knowledge does not have to be fact in other words knowledge does not have to actually BE. You can have knowledge of a possiblity that does not mean that that possibilty is real.

Any iota of existence is information because anything that is real is factual. The future is as real as the present; we simply have not yet observed it. An omniscient God, on the other hand, would undoubtedly be able to view past, present and future events at the same time as easily as you would these words.

A fetus is a human and elderly person is a human a fetus is just a tiny human

I know. What I'm saying is your grandmother/father as an elderly person is the same being as she/he was as a fetus. Although the person went through changes, it is the same person.

I have told you already that angels don't have souls AND THAT they are spirits.

I'm referring to it as a soul for universal and interreligious purposes. Use your imagination and picture me saying spirit instead. Either way, I'm referring to the (as you've defined it) "eternal" core of your being or the essence of a person.

lucifer chose to change into satan god knew of this possibilty but

No, if god is omniscient, God knew Lucifer would switch over to the darkside before God created Lucifer. If you don't agree with this, you deny that God is omniscient.

being that god is good he chose not to punish lucifer until lucifer chose to rebel.

If God were really good, he would have prevented evil altogether. So, he's like.. partly good. ..or somewhat good

FACE it i stumped you and your understanding of theology is poor.

I don't agree.

 

[zombie]

The future is not information what you have described is knowledge but knowledge does not have to be fact in other words knowledge does not have to actually BE. You can have knowledge of a possiblity that does not mean that that possibilty is real.

Any iota of existence is information because anything that is real is factual. The future is as real as the present; we simply have not yet observed it. An omniscient God, on the other hand, would undoubtedly be able to view past, present and future events at the same time as easily as you would these words.

A fetus is a human and elderly person is a human a fetus is just a tiny human

I know. What I'm saying is your grandmother/father as an elderly person is the same being as she/he was as a fetus. Although the person went through changes, it is the same person.

I have told you already that angels don't have souls AND THAT they are spirits.

I'm referring to it as a soul for universal and interreligious purposes. Use your imagination and picture me saying spirit instead. Either way, I'm referring to the (as you've defined it) "eternal" core of your being or the essence of a person.

lucifer chose to change into satan god knew of this possibilty but

No, if god is omniscient, God knew Lucifer would switch over to the darkside before God created Lucifer. If you don't agree with this, you deny that God is omniscient.

being that god is good he chose not to punish lucifer until lucifer chose to rebel.

If God were really good, he would have prevented evil altogether. So, he's like.. partly good. ..or somewhat good

FACE it i stumped you and your understanding of theology is poor.

I don't agree.

the future is not as real as the present saying other wise makes no sense. The future is not singular it's not A thing. future is possibility so being omniscient of the future would mean having all knowledge of every possibility.

fu·ture (fychr)

n.

1. The indefinite time yet to come: will try to do better in the future.

2. Something that will happen in time to come: "The future comes apace" (Shakespeare).

3. A prospective or expected condition, especially one considered with regard to growth, advancement, or development: a business with no future.

4. futures Business Commodities or stocks bought or sold upon agreement of delivery in time to come.

5. Grammar

a. The form of a verb used in speaking of action that has not yet occurred or of states not yet in existence.

b. A verb form in the future ten

A butterfly is not the same being as a catterpillar they are totally different, a fetus is only a small undevelped human so comparing the change of a catterpillar into a butterfly to the growth of a fetus into an adult is a faulty comparison because there is no deep fundamental change.

You cannot prevent evil by doing evil and preventing an intelligence from expressing it's desires under threat of destruction is evil and destroying something you love just because you are aware of the possbility that it will rebel against you is also evil. The better question would be why did god not destroy lucifer after his rebellion.

 

[Bodhi]

the future is not as real as the present saying other wise makes no sense. The future is not singular it's not A thing. future is possibility so being omniscient of the future would mean having all knowledge of every possibility.

fu·ture (fychr)

n.

1. The indefinite time yet to come: will try to do better in the future.

Indefinite means unidentified or unfamiliar. Or not definite as in not certain as to what exactly it entails.. or rather, uncertain of the details of it specifically.

So as I've said, the future is as real as the present; we simply have not yet observed it.

A butterfly is not the same being as a catterpillar they are totally different.

Not totally. In fact, research suggests that adult butterflies remember things they've learned as caterpillars.

a fetus is only a small undevelped human so comparing the change of a catterpillar into a butterfly to the growth of a fetus into an adult is a faulty comparison because there is no deep fundamental change.

The caterpillar is the larva. Like the fetus, it goes through stages of change to become an adult.

You cannot prevent evil by doing evil.

I never said you could.

and preventing an intelligence from expressing it's desires under threat of destruction is evil and destroying something you love just because you are aware of the possbility that it will rebel against you is also evil. The better question would be why did god not destroy lucifer after his rebellion.

I never suggested all of this stuff. I said that God, if he were really good, would have prevented evil.. you know, by not creating an evil (or future evil) entity.

 

[Bodhi]

the future is not as real as the present saying other wise makes no sense. The future is not singular it's not A thing. future is possibility so being omniscient of the future would mean having all knowledge of every possibility.

fu·ture (fychr)

n.

1. The indefinite time yet to come: will try to do better in the future.

2. Something that will happen in time to come: "The future comes apace" (Shakespeare).

3. A prospective or expected condition, especially one considered with regard to growth, advancement, or development: a business with no future.

4. futures Business Commodities or stocks bought or sold upon agreement of delivery in time to come.

5. Grammar

a. The form of a verb used in speaking of action that has not yet occurred or of states not yet in existence.

b. A verb form in the future ten

 

[Bodhi]

Lmao @ saying the future is not a thing and then proceeding to define it as a noun.

 

[zombie]

the future is not as real as the present saying other wise makes no sense. The future is not singular it's not A thing. future is possibility so being omniscient of the future would mean having all knowledge of every possibility.

fu·ture (fychr)

n.

1. The indefinite time yet to come: will try to do better in the future.

Indefinite means unidentified or unfamiliar. Or not definite as in not certain as to what exactly it entails.. or rather, uncertain of the details of it specifically.

So as I've said, the future is as real as the present; we simply have not yet observed it.

A butterfly is not the same being as a catterpillar they are totally different.

Not totally. In fact, research suggests that adult butterflies remember things they've learned as caterpillars.

a fetus is only a small undevelped human so comparing the change of a catterpillar into a butterfly to the growth of a fetus into an adult is a faulty comparison because there is no deep fundamental change.

The caterpillar is the larva. Like the fetus, it goes through stages of change to become an adult.

You cannot prevent evil by doing evil.

I never said you could.

and preventing an intelligence from expressing it's desires under threat of destruction is evil and destroying something you love just because you are aware of the possbility that it will rebel against you is also evil. The better question would be why did god not destroy lucifer after his rebellion.

I never suggested all of this stuff. I said that God, if he were really good, would have prevented evil.. you know, by not creating an evil (or future evil) entity.

the future is not as real as the present your statement to the contrary makes no sense, since the future is yet to be. The word indefinite literally means not definite. when some thing is not clearly defined, it can be called indefinite in other words not sure not settled. i like how you skipped over the other examples of the meaning of the word.

when a catterpillar becomes an adult it's no longer a catterpillar it's a butterfly, a fetus is a human when it becomes an adult it's still a human.

God did not create an evil entity he created a good one.

 

[zombie]

Lmao @ saying the future is not a thing and then proceeding to define it as a noun.

You keep ignoring the full meaning of the word and how it is used to fit your stupid argument.

 

[Bodhi]

the future is not as real ... since the future is yet to be.

It's real. We just haven't observed it.

The word indefinite literally means not definite.

I think I said that already. Hold on..

Indefinite means unidentified or unfamiliar. Or not definite as in not certain as to what exactly it entails.. or rather, uncertain of the details of it specifically.

Oh yeahh... I did. Huh. How about that..

i like how you skipped over the other examples of the meaning of the word.

I honestly didn't see the last bolded part until I had already posted. That's why I replied again with the video.

when a catterpillar becomes an adult it's no longer a catterpillar it's a butterfly, a fetus is a human when it becomes an adult it's still a human.

Caterpillars are the same species as the butterflies that they metamorphosize into. Caterpillar is just the name we give for the larva and butterfly is the name we give for the adult... much like calf and cow.

God did not create an evil entity he created a good one.

He created the devil did he not?

 

[zombie]

the future is not as real ... since the future is yet to be.

It's real. We just haven't observed it.

The word indefinite literally means not definite.

I think I said that already. Hold on..

Indefinite means unidentified or unfamiliar. Or not definite as in not certain as to what exactly it entails.. or rather, uncertain of the details of it specifically.

Oh yeahh... I did. Huh. How about that..

i like how you skipped over the other examples of the meaning of the word.

I honestly didn't see the last bolded part until I had already posted. That's why I replied again with the video.

when a catterpillar becomes an adult it's no longer a catterpillar it's a butterfly, a fetus is a human when it becomes an adult it's still a human.

Caterpillars are the same species as the butterflies that they metamorphosize into. Caterpillar is just the name we give for the larva and butterfly is the name we give for the adult... much like calf and cow.

God did not create an evil entity he created a good one.

He created the devil did he not?

IF THE FUTURE has not come into existence then it is not real. all the video proves is that there is a relationship between space and time not that the future exist as a actualized thing. a caterpillar and a butterfly are the same species but like i said their fundamental nature is totally different unlike that of a calf and a cow. the calf and the cow have the same form and nature. God did not make the devil the devil made himself into the devil.

 

[Bodhi]

IF THE FUTURE has not come into existence then it is not real. all the video proves is that there is a relationship between space and time not that the future exist as a actualized thing.

Then we simply don't agree here.

a caterpillar and a butterfly are the same species but like i said their fundamental nature is totally different unlike that of a calf and a cow. the calf and the cow have the same form and nature. God did not make the devil the devil made himself into the devil.

If they are the same species, how can their "fundamental nature" be totally different? It's a fact. Caterpillars are no more than the larval form of butterflies.

If god didn't create the devil, god is not the supreme creator.

 

[zombie]

IF THE FUTURE has not come into existence then it is not real. all the video proves is that there is a relationship between space and time not that the future exist as a actualized thing.

Then we simply don't agree here.

a caterpillar and a butterfly are the same species but like i said their fundamental nature is totally different unlike that of a calf and a cow. the calf and the cow have the same form and nature. God did not make the devil the devil made himself into the devil.

If they are the same species, how can their "fundamental nature" be totally different? It's a fact. Caterpillars are no more than the larval form of butterflies.

If god didn't create the devil, god is not the supreme creator.

God is the supreme creator the greatest creator but he is not the only creator because man creates his own future by obedience to him or disobedience to him.

the nature of a caterpillar and the nature of a butterfly are totally different because their behaviors are totally different, their ways of life are totally different, like look radically different from each other they do not even eat the same food.

 

[Bodhi]

IF THE FUTURE has not come into existence then it is not real. all the video proves is that there is a relationship between space and time not that the future exist as a actualized thing.

Then we simply don't agree here.

a caterpillar and a butterfly are the same species but like i said their fundamental nature is totally different unlike that of a calf and a cow. the calf and the cow have the same form and nature. God did not make the devil the devil made himself into the devil.

If they are the same species, how can their "fundamental nature" be totally different? It's a fact. Caterpillars are no more than the larval form of butterflies.

If god didn't create the devil, god is not the supreme creator.

God is the supreme creator the greatest creator but he is not the only creator because man creates his own future by obedience to him or disobedience to him.

the nature of a caterpillar and the nature of a butterfly are totally different because their behaviors are totally different, their ways of life are totally different, like look radically different from each other they do not even eat the same food.

God would be a terrible creator if he existed. Especially being all knowing yet continuing to create evil entities like Satan.

The behavior, way of life, appearance, and diet of a fetus is vastly different from an adult human. But they are still the same thing.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

If there was a god who was going to let me do as I choose, I should hope that, that god gave me full compass of choices, good and evil. If that god only created good, how could I choose evil?