Debt Talks Just got Real(er)

[Jonas.dini]

If that's the case then you would know that what Obama got out of the bill was worth more than an extension of the Bush Tax Cuts for two years. Had he let the tax cuts expire, the taxes wouldn't have just gone up on the rich, they would have gone up on EVERYONE and the middle class can't afford to pay more taxes. Rich people can pay accountants to find tax loopholes, the average American would be stuck paying that extra. It's called sacrificing for the greater good. Instead of a tax increase, he got the middle class an extra tax cut. And he sacrificed little in comparison. That's the reality, you can say you know what was in that bill but I'm sorry if you really did you would know that HE came out a winner in those negotiations, the Republicans didn't and their base is pissed about it. That's why these debt talks are so difficult because Obama keeps outclassing them in negotiations and they don't want to look like losers again with the Republican primaries coming up soon.

lol at you trying to explain it to me like we didn't' all read about it endlessly and debate it on the forums and at least some of us in real life. I recall the details, and I thought it was a shitty compromise then and still do. Not good policy or smart politics from Obama's side, especially when you put it in some context with the rest of his history in office.

I didn't know there were any fervent obamastans left on the IC at this point.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

Why does he have to negotiate things that should have been a given with fools, because Republicans are in power. That's just it. The people didn't get out in November and vote the way they should have so because of that, the Republicans were able to take over the House. And because of that, he had to deal.

Ok, but the reason democrats flopped in November was because of the health care scare that Obama himself created. You can't force through legislation that is more of a problem than a priority.

So you like everyone else can BLAME Obama for "caving" but the reality is if people did what they were supposed to do at the polls we wouldn't have had to worry about him "caving" now would we?

Yes and no. There are two issues here. Him caving and him getting the correct message out. As soon as the Tea Party mounted their attacks, the first thing out of Obama's mouth should have been "we cannot solve a budget deficit by cutting spending in a recession." Thats it. That is a proven economic fact.

Then from there, it is up to us the people to tell everybody else who is too stupid to understand that concept, to shut the fuck up. Stop entertaining these fools. Stop entertaining these lies. But democrats absolutely suck at conveying a message to their base.

That's the biggest problem with the American people. Everyone talks shit about the political system however the political system is run by us. You can say corporations run it and people with money run it but the average American is too ignorant to the goings on of our Constitution to know how much power they truly have which is why the minority runs the majority and all the majority does is complain about it.

Now this I fully agree with you on. Hence why I never argue against gov't vs private or simply republican vs democrat. At the end of the day, the individual person and not the label is what matters.

 

[dawriter]

lol at you trying to explain it to me like we didn't' all read about it endlessly and debate it on the forums and at least some of us in real life. I recall the details, and I thought it was a shitty compromise then and still do. Not good policy or smart politics from Obama's side, especially when you put it in some context with the rest of his history in office.

I didn't know there were any fervent obamastans left on the IC at this point.

Oh, because I disagree with your point of view I'm a stan? Gotcha, you know nothing about me to call me a stan however I've challenged for you to recall what you're calling a shitty deal and you haven't pulled anything out of the deal except for the tax cuts you claim should have been left to expire. If that's your main point then we'll just stand on opposite sides on this one.

 

[Jonas.dini]

Oh, because I disagree with your point of view I'm a stan? Gotcha, you know nothing about me to call me a stan however I've challenged for you to recall what you're calling a shitty deal and you haven't pulled anything out of the deal except for the tax cuts you claim should have been left to expire. If that's your main point then we'll just stand on opposite sides on this one.

Actually I believe it was u who said that if I thought it was a shitty compromise then I must not know what was in the bill. And yes stanley, we do stand on opposite sides if you think that is a good compromise.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

Oh, because I disagree with your point of view I'm a stan? Gotcha, you know nothing about me to call me a stan however I've challenged for you to recall what you're calling a shitty deal and you haven't pulled anything out of the deal except for the tax cuts you claim should have been left to expire. If that's your main point then we'll just stand on opposite sides on this one.

Actually I believe it was u who said that if I thought it was a shitty compromise then I must not know what was in the bill. And yes stanley, we do stand on opposite sides if you think that is a good compromise.

At this point both of y'all are just debating opinion. Until somebody drops facts,numbers, charts and links, both of y'all are wrong.

 

[dawriter]

Actually I believe it was u who said that if I thought it was a shitty compromise then I must not know what was in the bill. And yes stanley, we do stand on opposite sides if you think that is a good compromise.

Actually, I'm a realist that knows how politics work. I don't get mad at the President because I had some warped view or idea of what he was going to be able to accomplish during his first term. So, you an save your stan terms for someone that blindly supports a person and then gets disappointed when they don't get their way.

 

[dawriter]

At this point both of y'all are just debating opinion. Until somebody drops facts,numbers, charts and links, both of y'all are wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/16/AR2010121606200.html

I have no problems backing up my arguments. This is the detailed reports of what Obama got out of the bill. Like I said, the unemployment benefits and the payroll tax benefits outweigh the Bush tax cuts being saved for two years.

Here's another link...
http://useconomy.about.com/b/2010/12/21/the-858-billion-tax-cut-deal-of-2010.htm

 

[Jonas.dini]

Actually, I'm a realist that knows how politics work. I don't get mad at the President because I had some warped view or idea of what he was going to be able to accomplish during his first term. So, you an save your stan terms for someone that blindly supports a person and then gets disappointed when they don't get their way.

Cool story dogg

 

[Jonas.dini]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/16/AR2010121606200.html

I have no problems backing up my arguments. This is the detailed reports of what Obama got out of the bill. Like I said, the unemployment benefits and the payroll tax benefits outweigh the Bush tax cuts being saved for two years.

Here's another link...
http://useconomy.about.com/b/2010/12/21/the-858-billion-tax-cut-deal-of-2010.htm

Payroll tax cuts put pressure on social security, which is now on the table for cuts.

Unemployment benefits and tax cuts pressure on the budget which we're now all in crisis mode about.

So in the long run the effects of both are going to be voided by the shift to the right that we're experiencing now.

In the meantime, the rich still getting the very tax break that contributed to the deficit that is now gutting social services.

And in political terms no only does the Democratic president give away the farm on tax cuts and find himself defending and basically adopting the republican economic paradigm as his own, but he's going to have to preside over utterly fake austerity, which will hurt him politically and makes for horrible economic policy.

And on top of all that he did the whole thing in a showy political way at the 11th hour, which is exactly what I predict is going to happen this time, and of course that brings us back to the substance of my initial post that dawriter found so objectionable.

 

[thatni99ajahmal]

I have to disagree with this because even the Pentagon has said the department of defense has more money than it needs. They've suggested cuts in their budget BEYOND what any politician has proposed. The military is good on the funding issue, that's why they are so amendment about cuts.

The military is something that is always growing so of course they can say we can make cuts everyone can trim off some fat but once they do and realize we need the extra money they will ask for it again..

Trust me i have read some of the stuff they think they can do without and they only sayin bcuz its not being used at this moment it doesnt mean it cant be used..

 

[kingblaze84]

I won't debate with you about the wars. My motto is, I'm not a serviceman or a government agent, so I can't talk about that which I don't know.

But how is he selling us out on Social Security???

He's selling us out on SS because he's willing to cut back on things that are keeping many Americans afloat, especially the elderly, but NOT willing to end his expensive ass wars. The Iraq war has cost America 2 trillion dollars if one includes medical treatments. The wars in the Middle East overall have cost Americans 3 trillion since 2001. Why wont Obama cut back on warfare the way he is so willing to cut back on incomes for the poor and elderly?

It's no surprise Obama's in deep trouble with the polls now, but if he cuts back on SS WITHOUT ending his wars, he will be in deeper trouble than he is now.

 

[kingblaze84]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/14/layoffs-recession-economic-stagnation-_n_899261.html

Though economists stress that it remains too early to assert this with certainty, recently released government data suggest that layoffs exceeding weak hiring was the primary cause for rising unemployment in May and June.

New weekly unemployment claims have topped 400,000 a week for more than three months -- the level generally considered the dividing line between an improving labor market and a stagnant one. The most recent government snapshot of the job market found that, in June, the number of people officially unemployed for less than five weeks climbed above 3 million, from 2.6 million in May.

The last two months have shown a significant jump in layoffs, according to Challenger, Gray & Christmas, an outplacement consultancy group in Chicago. The firm cites declines in government spending and concerns among employers that the economy is not growing enough to justify their current payrolls as drivers of the trend.

------And Obama wants to cut back on SS huh? LOL wow! Yes to neverending wars, no to saving that money for Americans at home. Nice job Washington DC, nice job. If America's credit rating goes negative, ya'll better get ready for chaos. I hope I'm wrong, but it doesnt seem like the White House and Republicans care either way. It's every man for himself in these next couple of weeks.....get ready.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

He's selling us out on SS because he's willing to cut back on things that are keeping many Americans afloat, especially the elderly, but NOT willing to end his expensive ass wars. The Iraq war has cost America 2 trillion dollars if one includes medical treatments. The wars in the Middle East overall have cost Americans 3 trillion since 2001. Why wont Obama cut back on warfare the way he is so willing to cut back on incomes for the poor and elderly?

It's no surprise Obama's in deep trouble with the polls now, but if he cuts back on SS WITHOUT ending his wars, he will be in deeper trouble than he is now.

I would agree that the wars have killed us financially.

But I'm trying to find out what you are basing your "he sold us out on SS" line on. I haven't seen anything beside Obama is willing to extend the retirement age by 2 years. And it wouldn't affect anyone for another 20 years.

 

[kingblaze84]

I would agree that the wars have killed us financially.

But I'm trying to find out what you are basing your "he sold us out on SS" line on. I haven't seen anything beside Obama is willing to extend the retirement age by 2 years. And it wouldn't affect anyone for another 20 years.

Okay, so you agree the wars have bankrupted us almost completely, why not cut back on that first??? The SS and Medicare/Medicaid cuts are bad enough but without the end to the many wars out there, it just seems like the middle class and poor are being sold out again in favor of rich corporations (corporations that are getting rich thanks to the wars).

It's for that reason many Democrats are not willing to back Obama on the cuts to Medicare and SS. You say he's only going to increase retirement age but knowing Obama, he's willing to cut SS much more than that.

 

[freshb651]

I would agree that the wars have killed us financially.

But I'm trying to find out what you are basing your "he sold us out on SS" line on. I haven't seen anything beside Obama is willing to extend the retirement age by 2 years. And it wouldn't affect anyone for another 20 years.

your sig is hilarious !

 

[thatni99ajahmal]

Okay, so you agree the wars have bankrupted us almost completely, why not cut back on that first??? The SS and Medicare/Medicaid cuts are bad enough but without the end to the many wars out there, it just seems like the middle class and poor are being sold out again in favor of rich corporations (corporations that are getting rich thanks to the wars).

It's for that reason many Democrats are not willing to back Obama on the cuts to Medicare and SS. You say he's only going to increase retirement age but knowing Obama, he's willing to cut SS much more than that.

Bcuz wars dont end overnight..

 

[kingblaze84]

Bcuz wars dont end overnight..

You're right, all years end 14 years after they began. World war 2 ended after 20 years, and the Civil War lasted 25 years.

Yep, wars always take a long time to end.

 

[thatni99ajahmal]

You're right, all years end 14 years after they began. World war 2 ended after 20 years, and the Civil War lasted 25 years.

Yep, wars always take a long time to end.

So its not a simple process to get up and close wars just like that..

The last group of soldiers that were killed recently was bcuz they were closing a base and was attacked..

So for everyone screamin end the war it cant be ended at your convience by losing more soldiers life..

 

[Bully_Pulpit]

Bcuz wars dont end overnight..

I see someones toting the company line..wars end when they are no longer profitable

 

[thatni99ajahmal]

I see someones toting the company line..wars end when they are no longer profitable

Im in the army i actually read intelligence reports im actually in the shit has nothing to do with company lines..