who's owed more? natives for stolen land or blacks for forced free labor?

[2stepz_ahead]

why would you compare historical genocides ? thats silly

is it really?

I guess you skipped Jew class.

they bring the shit up over anything..

but niggas must keep silent?

not even a discussion?

*in trump voice*

sad

Its silly from them (jews) and its silly from you

you get nowhere by comparing tragedies. You can make a strong intelligent argument on what kind of reparations should or would African Americans receive without talking about other minority groups, its weak and counter productive.

silly?

unlike you. I can turn a "silly " discussion into a learning experience.

you debating me about a question that can spark debate and lead elsewhere without thinking of a bigger picture is counter productive.

even taking it smaller...

why can't a simple question be asked without a high horse nigga coming in?

why does this question bother you?

why didn't you just ignore it?

who's comparing tragedies? I said what was owed from what was stolen for free.

Jews still want money from Nazis from what was stolen, am I right?

so, what's your point again?

 

[playmaker88]

 

[gns]

Negros win the 'who got it worse' Olympics 10 outta 10 times

Even in the holocaust we some how found a way to get our ass killed over shit we aint een involved in

Aint no kikes suffered during slavery

And indians had slaves themselves(so did other niggaz but u get my point)

I don't think any of the Natives had a system of Chattel slavery though just to be clear. So the Native slavery and American slavery aren't really comparable.

U aint injun

U aint know how they treated us

Shut up

No but other people are injuns and know how they treated us and wrote books. Try picking up one from time to time.

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

Native are owned more because it's their land and their numbers are low

Black people are all over the world and we have a chance to turn it around but for the native they're done.

They can never recover

Low?

U see all these fuckin messicans runnin around?!

 

[jono]

Indians been getting reparations for years, black people have yet to receive anything..

follow the title bruh...

it's not about who's getting what...its about who's owed what.

if natives are owed 2 billion just because they was pain 209 mil...there debt was still 2bill

get my point

I get what the title means. And I did answer the question. Black people are owed more because black people haven't gotten anything. Whereas Indians have already been receiving resources. I don't know how else to explain it.

You still don't seem to understand what he's saying. Let's put numbers to it. Say the Natives are owed 2 billion and have gotten 500 million, they are still owed 1.5 billion. Say blacks are owed 1 billion and haven't received anything. That means they are still owed 1 billion, and that's still less than the Natives.

I'm not saying that's right, but that's the logic of his argument and your stance doesn't really address that.

On topic, I'd say blacks are owed more. The thing about is that we like to say America stole the land from the Natives, and to some extent they it did. However, it's not really that simple. First, the Natives didn't really have the same concept of land ownership that America does. Think about it, the settlers came here with no claim to the land but still set up communities. No one refers to that as stealing because no one really had a problem with it, not even a lot of the Natives at the time. Then when America expanded, it actually went to war with the various Native tribes and won. Like it or not, that's how the world has always worked. To the winner goes the spoils. America was wrong for the way it did the Natives, but technically it doesn't really owe them anything. The lost.

However, when it comes to slavery, America has officially admitted that slavery was wrong. If the country has taken the official stance that slavery was wrong, then there should be some restitution for the wronged party. So America, quite literally does owe the descendants of slaves.

Considering a large contingent of African slaves were BOUGHT (not stolen or kidnapped) from Africa that changes everything. Its calle the slave TRADE for a reason.

You can't deny the rights of people who don't have rights in the first place.

Also Natives DID have rights (property rights) which make this an unequal argument. The Trail of Tears is literally the demolishing of their rights as legal contracts stated they had a right to the land they were forced from.

Also Blacks DID have organisations set up by the government to assist post-slavery. The Freedman's Bureau is just one such organization, and it failed. The point being that freed slaves had an opportunity and it didn't work out.

Shit isn't nearly as cut and dry as folks are claiming it to be.

 

[AZTG]

Its really hard to call it. Just economically speaking, free labor for 400 years probably compounded more than what the land would have cost.

Speaking of lost potential though? Black people have been turning things around economically despite the odds. The media wont speak on it, but black people have been growing faster than average when it comes to economic growth. Natives though? They been almost all wiped out so they have almost no potential.

Before yall come and destroy this point, its really hard to call. Either way its not easy to fully pick one side cause they both been fucked.

 

[mryounggun]

All things being equal, I'd have to say black people. But in the interest of fairness, it wasn't just that native american landers were stolen. Shit was way deeper than that.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

If you think Black/Native relations boils down to "them having slaves so their the enemy," you don't really know what you're talking about so you should just fall back and stop talking. If that's the case everybody is the enemy including other blacks because every group of people on earth had some for of force labor system.

Considering a large contingent of African slaves were BOUGHT (not stolen or kidnapped) from Africa that changes everything. Its calle the slave TRADE for a reason.

You can't deny the rights of people who don't have rights in the first place.

Also Natives DID have rights (property rights) which make this an unequal argument. The Trail of Tears is literally the demolishing of their rights as legal contracts stated they had a right to the land they were forced from.

Also Blacks DID have organisations set up by the government to assist post-slavery. The Freedman's Bureau is just one such organization, and it failed. The point being that freed slaves had an opportunity and it didn't work out.

Shit isn't nearly as cut and dry as folks are claiming it to be.

Whether, those slaves had right or not at the time is irrelevant. American has already taken the stance that it wronged those people. If you admit wrong, then you automatically open yourself up to having to pay restitution.

As for the Native rights, the laws you're referencing were created by the same entity that took those laws back. I don't know that what happened with the Trail of Tears was actually illegal. There was probably some legal bullshit pulled to make it possible. After all, Natives still do have their own sovereign land within the U.S.

Anyway, you're right. It's not clear cut. I wasn't implying that. It's academic at the end of the day because both groups were screwed in a way that the U.S. will never really attempt to make amends for.

 

[konceptjones]

Indians been getting reparations for years, black people have yet to receive anything..

No we haven't. Plain and simple. Add to that we're being systematically killed off through those "resources" you're talking about.
https://www.courthousenews.com/tribe-sues-for-exposure-event-at-hospital/

^^^ This happened at my reservation. This wasn't the first "exposure event" and the IHS is riddled with similar complaints about their practices. Intentionally infecting Natives with everything from HIV to Tuberculosis at "free clinics" ain't exactly getting reparations, and it is definitely intentional.

Aside from that, nearly every dollar we have received from the government was fought for because of broken agreements between tribes and the US government (i.e. the recent $1B land settlement that no one in my family except my Grandmother got money from).

Nah bruh, try again.

 

[jono]

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

If you think Black/Native relations boils down to "them having slaves so their the enemy," you don't really know what you're talking about so you should just fall back and stop talking. If that's the case everybody is the enemy including other blacks because every group of people on earth had some for of force labor system.

Considering a large contingent of African slaves were BOUGHT (not stolen or kidnapped) from Africa that changes everything. Its calle the slave TRADE for a reason.

You can't deny the rights of people who don't have rights in the first place.

Also Natives DID have rights (property rights) which make this an unequal argument. The Trail of Tears is literally the demolishing of their rights as legal contracts stated they had a right to the land they were forced from.

Also Blacks DID have organisations set up by the government to assist post-slavery. The Freedman's Bureau is just one such organization, and it failed. The point being that freed slaves had an opportunity and it didn't work out.

Shit isn't nearly as cut and dry as folks are claiming it to be.

Whether, those slaves had right or not at the time is irrelevant. American has already taken the stance that it wronged those people. If you admit wrong, then you automatically open yourself up to having to pay restitution.

As for the Native rights, the laws you're referencing were created by the same entity that took those laws back. I don't know that what happened with the Trail of Tears was actually illegal. There was probably some legal bullshit pulled to make it possible. After all, Natives still do have their own sovereign land within the U.S.

Anyway, you're right. It's not clear cut. I wasn't implying that. It's academic at the end of the day because both groups were screwed in a way that the U.S. will never really attempt to make amends for.

Its very relevant actually. Slavery was legal. There were no rights to violate. To say it was wrong is not the same as saying it is illegal. Morally it is wrong but legally, it was fine.

Also the actual government didn't own slaves, individuals within it did. The actual government DID commit the Trail of Tears as it was the force of the U.S. Army being brought down to violate the legal rights of individuals.

They aren't the same.

 

[konceptjones]

Negros win the 'who got it worse' Olympics 10 outta 10 times

Even in the holocaust we some how found a way to get our ass killed over shit we aint een involved in

Aint no kikes suffered during slavery

And indians had slaves themselves(so did other niggaz but u get my point)

I don't think any of the Natives had a system of Chattel slavery though just to be clear. So the Native slavery and American slavery aren't really comparable.

U aint injun

U aint know how they treated us

Shut up

No but other people are injuns and know how they treated us and wrote books. Try picking up one from time to time.

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

Native are owned more because it's their land and their numbers are low

Black people are all over the world and we have a chance to turn it around but for the native they're done.

They can never recover

Low?

U see all these fuckin messicans runnin around?!

Aside from me, when was the last time you've met an Native American?

When was the last time you've even SEEN an Native American outside of a movie or Youtube video?

I'll wait...

 

[The Lonious Monk]

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

If you think Black/Native relations boils down to "them having slaves so their the enemy," you don't really know what you're talking about so you should just fall back and stop talking. If that's the case everybody is the enemy including other blacks because every group of people on earth had some for of force labor system.

Considering a large contingent of African slaves were BOUGHT (not stolen or kidnapped) from Africa that changes everything. Its calle the slave TRADE for a reason.

You can't deny the rights of people who don't have rights in the first place.

Also Natives DID have rights (property rights) which make this an unequal argument. The Trail of Tears is literally the demolishing of their rights as legal contracts stated they had a right to the land they were forced from.

Also Blacks DID have organisations set up by the government to assist post-slavery. The Freedman's Bureau is just one such organization, and it failed. The point being that freed slaves had an opportunity and it didn't work out.

Shit isn't nearly as cut and dry as folks are claiming it to be.

Whether, those slaves had right or not at the time is irrelevant. American has already taken the stance that it wronged those people. If you admit wrong, then you automatically open yourself up to having to pay restitution.

As for the Native rights, the laws you're referencing were created by the same entity that took those laws back. I don't know that what happened with the Trail of Tears was actually illegal. There was probably some legal bullshit pulled to make it possible. After all, Natives still do have their own sovereign land within the U.S.

Anyway, you're right. It's not clear cut. I wasn't implying that. It's academic at the end of the day because both groups were screwed in a way that the U.S. will never really attempt to make amends for.

Its very relevant actually. Slavery was legal. There were no rights to violate. To say it was wrong is not the same as saying it is illegal. Morally it is wrong but legally, it was fine.

Also the actual government didn't own slaves, individuals within it did. The actual government DID commit the Trail of Tears as it was the force of the U.S. Army being brought down to violate the legal rights of individuals.

They aren't the same.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said though. I never said slavery was legal. I said U.S. has officially admitted that it was wrong to have instituted and allowed slavery in this country. Whether, it was legal or not, the U.S. as a nation has stated that it did wrong by a segment of its population. If that's the case, the nation by its own admission owes blacks restitution. And no, the government didn't own slaves, but the government is responsible for allowing slavery to be a thing. When cases came up regarding escaped slaves, the government was the one that gave slave owners the thumbs up to take those slaves and approved of abusing slaves too. Basically, slavery was a law, and government agents enforced that law.

And again, can you prove that America violated the legal rights of the Natives for the Trail of Tears. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't know enough to say that the government didn't pull some legal bullshit so that what they were doing wasn't actually illegal.

 

[2stepz_ahead]

Negros win the 'who got it worse' Olympics 10 outta 10 times

Even in the holocaust we some how found a way to get our ass killed over shit we aint een involved in

Aint no kikes suffered during slavery

And indians had slaves themselves(so did other niggaz but u get my point)

I don't think any of the Natives had a system of Chattel slavery though just to be clear. So the Native slavery and American slavery aren't really comparable.

U aint injun

U aint know how they treated us

Shut up

No but other people are injuns and know how they treated us and wrote books. Try picking up one from time to time.

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

Native are owned more because it's their land and their numbers are low

Black people are all over the world and we have a chance to turn it around but for the native they're done.

They can never recover

Low?

U see all these fuckin messicans runnin around?!

Aside from me, when was the last time you've met an Native American?

When was the last time you've even SEEN an Native American outside of a movie or Youtube video?

I'll wait...

my grandfather

 

[jono]

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

If you think Black/Native relations boils down to "them having slaves so their the enemy," you don't really know what you're talking about so you should just fall back and stop talking. If that's the case everybody is the enemy including other blacks because every group of people on earth had some for of force labor system.

Considering a large contingent of African slaves were BOUGHT (not stolen or kidnapped) from Africa that changes everything. Its calle the slave TRADE for a reason.

You can't deny the rights of people who don't have rights in the first place.

Also Natives DID have rights (property rights) which make this an unequal argument. The Trail of Tears is literally the demolishing of their rights as legal contracts stated they had a right to the land they were forced from.

Also Blacks DID have organisations set up by the government to assist post-slavery. The Freedman's Bureau is just one such organization, and it failed. The point being that freed slaves had an opportunity and it didn't work out.

Shit isn't nearly as cut and dry as folks are claiming it to be.

Whether, those slaves had right or not at the time is irrelevant. American has already taken the stance that it wronged those people. If you admit wrong, then you automatically open yourself up to having to pay restitution.

As for the Native rights, the laws you're referencing were created by the same entity that took those laws back. I don't know that what happened with the Trail of Tears was actually illegal. There was probably some legal bullshit pulled to make it possible. After all, Natives still do have their own sovereign land within the U.S.

Anyway, you're right. It's not clear cut. I wasn't implying that. It's academic at the end of the day because both groups were screwed in a way that the U.S. will never really attempt to make amends for.

Its very relevant actually. Slavery was legal. There were no rights to violate. To say it was wrong is not the same as saying it is illegal. Morally it is wrong but legally, it was fine.

Also the actual government didn't own slaves, individuals within it did. The actual government DID commit the Trail of Tears as it was the force of the U.S. Army being brought down to violate the legal rights of individuals.

They aren't the same.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said though. I never said slavery was legal. I said U.S. has officially admitted that it was wrong to have instituted and allowed slavery in this country. Whether, it was legal or not, the U.S. as a nation has stated that it did wrong by a segment of its population. If that's the case, the nation by its own admission owes blacks restitution. And no, the government didn't own slaves, but the government is responsible for allowing slavery to be a thing. When cases came up regarding escaped slaves, the government was the one that gave slave owners the thumbs up to take those slaves and approved of abusing slaves too. Basically, slavery was a law, and government agents enforced that law.

And again, can you prove that America violated the legal rights of the Natives for the Trail of Tears. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't know enough to say that the government didn't pull some legal bullshit so that what they were doing wasn't actually illegal.

They had to enforce the law because slaves were considered property and could be bought, sold or stolen. In order to have property rights they have to be maintained and enforced which brings me to....

The Supreme Court stated the Natives had rights to the land they inhabited. Andrew Jackson scoffed and sent the military in to force them out.

If the underlined is valid, Its still a moral argument but not a legal one. You still can't conflate people exercising their legal rights with moral action.

Its the same argument that happens in terms of environmental contamination. A company dumps something in the nearest lake, people get sick and the company claims it had a right to do so. Even if its immoral, its not illegal. Even IF you've found liable, you aren't going to find them liable for 100+ years of damages anyway.

As I said in my first post, Reconstruction had some forms of restitution for slaves. Insufficient though they may be.

 

[Olorun22]

Black people could have ended slavery a long time ago. I don't get this line of thinking that we had to stay slaves. We had blame in our own demise as we do today

 

[The Lonious Monk]

They had to enforce the law because slaves were considered property and could be bought, sold or stolen. In order to have property rights they have to be maintained and enforced which brings me to....

The Supreme Court stated the Natives had rights to the land they inhabited. Andrew Jackson scoffed and sent the military in to force them out.

If the underlined is valid, Its still a moral argument but not a legal one. You still can't conflate people exercising their legal rights with moral action.

Its the same argument that happens in terms of environmental contamination. A company dumps something in the nearest lake, people get sick and the company claims it had a right to do so. Even if its immoral, its not illegal. Even IF you've found liable, you aren't going to find them liable for 100+ years of damages anyway.

As I said in my first post, Reconstruction had some forms of restitution for slaves. Insufficient though they may be.

You're right. I forgot that Jackson basically gave the Supreme Court the finger.

 

[konceptjones]

All of y'all on this "but slavery...." shit needs to remember a couple of things:

1. There were thousands of Native tribes here in this coutnry. Very few (i.e. less than 10) held Africans as slaves. The Cherokee had more than any other tribe at approx 4600.

2. After slavery was abolished, many of those Africans were assimilated into the tribes.

You're trying to pin slavery on Natives as if the number of slaves held by free Black men didn't dwarf their numbers considerably. You're also forgetting that Black slave owners have been in this country since the first colonies were established (read more about men like Nat Butler) as well as Blacks that owned white indentured servants.

Native Americans were also enslaved en masse in this country. Columbus was responsible for starting the Native slave trade in 1493 by capturing Natives and shipping them back to Spain. In only a few years time nearly a million Natives had been rounded up from the islands and Central America and sent to Spain to be sold as slaves but it didn't stop there. When the Spanish made their way into North America they enslaved Natives in huge numbers. Just as Africans supplied slaves to Europeans in exchange for goods or alliances with European governments, so did Native tribes here in America. NC, VA, SC, and LA were trading more Natives as slaves than they had African shipped in mainly through raiding and subsequently depleting Florida and Mississippi of it's Native population.

That Natives couldn't be enslaved due to their love of freedom or whatever folks are saying these days is a dangerous myth that prevents anyone from realizing that Natives were enslaved here in the Americas for as long as honkies have been here.

 

[konceptjones]

Negros win the 'who got it worse' Olympics 10 outta 10 times

Even in the holocaust we some how found a way to get our ass killed over shit we aint een involved in

Aint no kikes suffered during slavery

And indians had slaves themselves(so did other niggaz but u get my point)

I don't think any of the Natives had a system of Chattel slavery though just to be clear. So the Native slavery and American slavery aren't really comparable.

U aint injun

U aint know how they treated us

Shut up

No but other people are injuns and know how they treated us and wrote books. Try picking up one from time to time.

So i should get my history from the enemy

U musta got all A's in school.

Native are owned more because it's their land and their numbers are low

Black people are all over the world and we have a chance to turn it around but for the native they're done.

They can never recover

Low?

U see all these fuckin messicans runnin around?!

Aside from me, when was the last time you've met an Native American?

When was the last time you've even SEEN an Native American outside of a movie or Youtube video?

I'll wait...

my grandfather

So you're a Tribal man? What tribe you from?

 

[blackrain]

Indians been getting reparations for years, black people have yet to receive anything..

This is a bit disingenuous though because its not like its improved their condition

 

[Will Munny]

I don't think this thread has ever been done before in the IC.

 

[D. Morgan]

why would you compare historical genocides ? thats silly

is it really?

I guess you skipped Jew class.

they bring the shit up over anything..

but niggas must keep silent?

not even a discussion?

*in trump voice*

sad

Its silly from them (jews) and its silly from you

you get nowhere by comparing tragedies. You can make a strong intelligent argument on what kind of reparations should or would African Americans receive without talking about other minority groups, its weak and counter productive.

silly?

unlike you. I can turn a "silly " discussion into a learning experience.

you debating me about a question that can spark debate and lead elsewhere without thinking of a bigger picture is counter productive.

even taking it smaller...

why can't a simple question be asked without a high horse nigga coming in?

why does this question bother you?

why didn't you just ignore it?

who's comparing tragedies? I said what was owed from what was stolen for free.

Jews still want money from Nazis from what was stolen, am I right?

so, what's your point again?