LMS Debate rd2. Does not paying child support warrant jail time

[CapitalB]

aye @HundredEyes

u so funny myG..

that gif was spot on..

put it there pal..

 

[atribecalledgabi]

My opponent still brings up points that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, like the finance business. In business if you can't pay the mortgage the bank repossesses/forecloses on the house &/or car, if your business goes under or stock goes to zero you take a loss or you can file for bankruptcy - but you're not going to jail for it tho. That's a civil matter not a criminal one, I'm not going off on that tangent, whole nother debate for someone else.

Jailing people for child support is predatory, puts the payee into a form of debt peonage, eliminates the ability to pay long-term (due to loss of job, etc), can destroy the family structure, can be horribly abused by an angry woman, and is ongoing as a vicious cycle. Clifford Hall, Walter Scott, Jahmal Holmes, the people in our video posted all victims and in Clifford's case he actually managed to make payments. Not only are personal assets, professional licences, or tax refunds seized, but they're also thrown in jail. Families that are poor are thrown in jail for virtually being unable to pay something that exceeds what they make. In most jurisdictions, support orders aren't even based on your actual income but on your pre-tax or imputed income. What does that mean ? It means what you'd be expected to make if you had a full time job, at minimum wage or median wage (which is why sometimes you hear about celebrities or athletes paying exorbitant amounts in child support). In various states such as South Carolina, Texas and others,the unemployment rate for African Americans is 12%, good luck with that. Lawmakers in the Obama Administration were trying to rewrite enforcement laws and make it so that Child Support be based on actual income and to consider the needs of the noncustodial parent, to stop child support debt to accrue while one is locked away and eliminate jail for people who can't pay.

It gets even worse... If the mother receives public assistance (such as welfare) the father (noncustodial parent) must also pay that back - even if he is poor. In a lot of cases child support actions are brought on by state officials who are looking for welfare reimbursement. So not only does the noncustodial parent become responsible for the child support but also welfare reimbursement ? Wtf.... Let's look at the relationship between welfare and child support..... There is an incentive that the custodial parent must pursue child support.

Some families are dependent on welfare and in order to apply they need to also state that they are receiving child support. The custodial parent can actually sue the noncustodial parent for it and at times is encouraged to. State government has an incentive to collect and raise arrears on these families for it's own gain. More than half the money owed in child support debt actually goes to the government not the child or family. And if a woman sues the man for the reimbursement, it can even affect a man's ability to apply for medicare and insurance. NOBODY WINS. It's one thing to have a bad baby mother, it's another to be stripped of your ability to provide for yourself or even have much of a life AFTERWARDS. Young people often make mistakes in relationships but they shouldn't be penalised for it for 18-22 years or the rest of their lives. FYI -- in some places like Canada, if the noncustodial can't pay the welfare reimbursement a judge may force the custodial parent to reimburse them for welfare up to a certain amount)

Furthermore this also means Black families cannot properly support themselves once that family has the male detached, they sever the root of the relationship between the parent and offspring because now that male is in jail and can't properly communicate or be in their child's life, not only that, you gimp his ability to provide for his family and so now he has to find a way to provide *Malcolm X voice* By any means necessary !!!!! This could mean turning to the underground economy, taking cash under the table, or selling drugs which only has 2 ends - jail or death. You don't make it fair, you emasculate the black man doing this and destroy the so-called head of the house. This is what is meant by socioeconomic reasons as to why people can't pay and why a law needs to be placed to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

(to reference and back my information about welfare and child support I provided a link in the spoiler, just in case the facts are questioned)

Spoiler

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/about-fathers/200812/welfare-and-child-support-nobody-wins
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Now in my next post I will bring this back full circle to show why child support shouldn't warrant jail time. Thank you.

This is my last response and it's short and sweet. He says his opponent brings up business and finances and if has nothing to do with the topic of child support...

He should know that the state and fed. goverment uses tax dollars to pay for housing,clothing, and feeding a child on gov. Assistance. They aren't locking people up just to fuck with them. They lock people up because it's a loan That they expect to be paid back...with interest. And if that's not paid with money, it's paid with time in jail. Cause time is money.

Where they get money from you being there. The point behind it is, im taking care of "your" responsibilities.

Thats all..

Damn sauce keeps setting himself up

Yo I absolutely LOST IT @ this gif. Well played.

Spoiler

I'm still running your fade tho.

 

[CapitalB]

My opponent still brings up points that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, like the finance business. In business if you can't pay the mortgage the bank repossesses/forecloses on the house &/or car, if your business goes under or stock goes to zero you take a loss or you can file for bankruptcy - but you're not going to jail for it tho. That's a civil matter not a criminal one, I'm not going off on that tangent, whole nother debate for someone else.

Jailing people for child support is predatory, puts the payee into a form of debt peonage, eliminates the ability to pay long-term (due to loss of job, etc), can destroy the family structure, can be horribly abused by an angry woman, and is ongoing as a vicious cycle. Clifford Hall, Walter Scott, Jahmal Holmes, the people in our video posted all victims and in Clifford's case he actually managed to make payments. Not only are personal assets, professional licences, or tax refunds seized, but they're also thrown in jail. Families that are poor are thrown in jail for virtually being unable to pay something that exceeds what they make. In most jurisdictions, support orders aren't even based on your actual income but on your pre-tax or imputed income. What does that mean ? It means what you'd be expected to make if you had a full time job, at minimum wage or median wage (which is why sometimes you hear about celebrities or athletes paying exorbitant amounts in child support). In various states such as South Carolina, Texas and others,the unemployment rate for African Americans is 12%, good luck with that. Lawmakers in the Obama Administration were trying to rewrite enforcement laws and make it so that Child Support be based on actual income and to consider the needs of the noncustodial parent, to stop child support debt to accrue while one is locked away and eliminate jail for people who can't pay.

It gets even worse... If the mother receives public assistance (such as welfare) the father (noncustodial parent) must also pay that back - even if he is poor. In a lot of cases child support actions are brought on by state officials who are looking for welfare reimbursement. So not only does the noncustodial parent become responsible for the child support but also welfare reimbursement ? Wtf.... Let's look at the relationship between welfare and child support..... There is an incentive that the custodial parent must pursue child support.

Some families are dependent on welfare and in order to apply they need to also state that they are receiving child support. The custodial parent can actually sue the noncustodial parent for it and at times is encouraged to. State government has an incentive to collect and raise arrears on these families for it's own gain. More than half the money owed in child support debt actually goes to the government not the child or family. And if a woman sues the man for the reimbursement, it can even affect a man's ability to apply for medicare and insurance. NOBODY WINS. It's one thing to have a bad baby mother, it's another to be stripped of your ability to provide for yourself or even have much of a life AFTERWARDS. Young people often make mistakes in relationships but they shouldn't be penalised for it for 18-22 years or the rest of their lives. FYI -- in some places like Canada, if the noncustodial can't pay the welfare reimbursement a judge may force the custodial parent to reimburse them for welfare up to a certain amount)

Furthermore this also means Black families cannot properly support themselves once that family has the male detached, they sever the root of the relationship between the parent and offspring because now that male is in jail and can't properly communicate or be in their child's life, not only that, you gimp his ability to provide for his family and so now he has to find a way to provide *Malcolm X voice* By any means necessary !!!!! This could mean turning to the underground economy, taking cash under the table, or selling drugs which only has 2 ends - jail or death. You don't make it fair, you emasculate the black man doing this and destroy the so-called head of the house. This is what is meant by socioeconomic reasons as to why people can't pay and why a law needs to be placed to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

(to reference and back my information about welfare and child support I provided a link in the spoiler, just in case the facts are questioned)

Spoiler

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/about-fathers/200812/welfare-and-child-support-nobody-wins
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Now in my next post I will bring this back full circle to show why child support shouldn't warrant jail time. Thank you.

This is my last response and it's short and sweet. He says his opponent brings up business and finances and if has nothing to do with the topic of child support...

He should know that the state and fed. goverment uses tax dollars to pay for housing,clothing, and feeding a child on gov. Assistance. They aren't locking people up just to fuck with them. They lock people up because it's a loan That they expect to be paid back...with interest. And if that's not paid with money, it's paid with time in jail. Cause time is money.

Where they get money from you being there. The point behind it is, im taking care of "your" responsibilities.

Thats all..

Damn sauce keeps setting himself up

Yo I absolutely LOST IT @ this gif. Well played.

Spoiler

I'm still running your fade tho.

 

[SolemnSauce]

Don't take that as an additional response, I coulda went that route but then I would had to actually....ya know

 

[2stepz_ahead]

My opponent still brings up points that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, like the finance business. In business if you can't pay the mortgage the bank repossesses/forecloses on the house &/or car, if your business goes under or stock goes to zero you take a loss or you can file for bankruptcy - but you're not going to jail for it tho. That's a civil matter not a criminal one, I'm not going off on that tangent, whole nother debate for someone else.

Jailing people for child support is predatory, puts the payee into a form of debt peonage, eliminates the ability to pay long-term (due to loss of job, etc), can destroy the family structure, can be horribly abused by an angry woman, and is ongoing as a vicious cycle. Clifford Hall, Walter Scott, Jahmal Holmes, the people in our video posted all victims and in Clifford's case he actually managed to make payments. Not only are personal assets, professional licences, or tax refunds seized, but they're also thrown in jail. Families that are poor are thrown in jail for virtually being unable to pay something that exceeds what they make. In most jurisdictions, support orders aren't even based on your actual income but on your pre-tax or imputed income. What does that mean ? It means what you'd be expected to make if you had a full time job, at minimum wage or median wage (which is why sometimes you hear about celebrities or athletes paying exorbitant amounts in child support). In various states such as South Carolina, Texas and others,the unemployment rate for African Americans is 12%, good luck with that. Lawmakers in the Obama Administration were trying to rewrite enforcement laws and make it so that Child Support be based on actual income and to consider the needs of the noncustodial parent, to stop child support debt to accrue while one is locked away and eliminate jail for people who can't pay.

It gets even worse... If the mother receives public assistance (such as welfare) the father (noncustodial parent) must also pay that back - even if he is poor. In a lot of cases child support actions are brought on by state officials who are looking for welfare reimbursement. So not only does the noncustodial parent become responsible for the child support but also welfare reimbursement ? Wtf.... Let's look at the relationship between welfare and child support..... There is an incentive that the custodial parent must pursue child support.

Some families are dependent on welfare and in order to apply they need to also state that they are receiving child support. The custodial parent can actually sue the noncustodial parent for it and at times is encouraged to. State government has an incentive to collect and raise arrears on these families for it's own gain. More than half the money owed in child support debt actually goes to the government not the child or family. And if a woman sues the man for the reimbursement, it can even affect a man's ability to apply for medicare and insurance. NOBODY WINS. It's one thing to have a bad baby mother, it's another to be stripped of your ability to provide for yourself or even have much of a life AFTERWARDS. Young people often make mistakes in relationships but they shouldn't be penalised for it for 18-22 years or the rest of their lives. FYI -- in some places like Canada, if the noncustodial can't pay the welfare reimbursement a judge may force the custodial parent to reimburse them for welfare up to a certain amount)

Furthermore this also means Black families cannot properly support themselves once that family has the male detached, they sever the root of the relationship between the parent and offspring because now that male is in jail and can't properly communicate or be in their child's life, not only that, you gimp his ability to provide for his family and so now he has to find a way to provide *Malcolm X voice* By any means necessary !!!!! This could mean turning to the underground economy, taking cash under the table, or selling drugs which only has 2 ends - jail or death. You don't make it fair, you emasculate the black man doing this and destroy the so-called head of the house. This is what is meant by socioeconomic reasons as to why people can't pay and why a law needs to be placed to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

(to reference and back my information about welfare and child support I provided a link in the spoiler, just in case the facts are questioned)

Spoiler

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/about-fathers/200812/welfare-and-child-support-nobody-wins
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Now in my next post I will bring this back full circle to show why child support shouldn't warrant jail time. Thank you.

This is my last response and it's short and sweet. He says his opponent brings up business and finances and if has nothing to do with the topic of child support...

He should know that the state and fed. goverment uses tax dollars to pay for housing,clothing, and feeding a child on gov. Assistance. They aren't locking people up just to fuck with them. They lock people up because it's a loan That they expect to be paid back...with interest. And if that's not paid with money, it's paid with time in jail. Cause time is money.

Where they get money from you being there. The point behind it is, im taking care of "your" responsibilities.

Thats all..

@_Goldie_ can u delete this post

 

[yellowtapesport]

How team world let the thread get deep into pg 2 lol

Gotta drop this for the bump...


A lil theme music for this debate..

 

[Mastery]

Wow didn't even see his post until just now. Anyways I'll post my response in a moment

 

[Mastery]

This debate was close. It really was.

With that said, I appreciated @SolemnSauce 's analogies, and the fact that he stayed mostly to his own opinion throughout the debate. He made a strong case as to why men SHOULD be jailed for missing child support payments. The only knock? As good as he was, I felt he was holding back, didn't take it as serious as his opponent, and could have brought more to the table. I don't think creating the weak narrative was needed. You nice enough to go in without that.

@Sion on the other hand, he took it very serious. He layed out perfectly why men should not be jailed for missing child support payments and convinced me his stance was superior. The knock on Sion is I would have liked to see more of his own opinion added to his arguments. I think he oversold on his references/sources.

My vote goes to Sion. I felt Solemnsauce could have taken it had he stepped it up a little bit more. This was one of those debates where I felt mostly opinions would have been GOLD!!!

That's my 2 cents.

 

[7figz]

Of course it warrants going to jail...

Spoiler

... for the mother !

Spoiler

I kid... I kid. My vote's for Sion. It probably costs more to keep somebody in jail than the government pays for in "supporting a child", and they need to reform their outrageous system before thinking about putting people in jail.

 

[HundredEyes]

My opponent still brings up points that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, like the finance business. In business if you can't pay the mortgage the bank repossesses/forecloses on the house &/or car, if your business goes under or stock goes to zero you take a loss or you can file for bankruptcy - but you're not going to jail for it tho. That's a civil matter not a criminal one, I'm not going off on that tangent, whole nother debate for someone else.

Jailing people for child support is predatory, puts the payee into a form of debt peonage, eliminates the ability to pay long-term (due to loss of job, etc), can destroy the family structure, can be horribly abused by an angry woman, and is ongoing as a vicious cycle. Clifford Hall, Walter Scott, Jahmal Holmes, the people in our video posted all victims and in Clifford's case he actually managed to make payments. Not only are personal assets, professional licences, or tax refunds seized, but they're also thrown in jail. Families that are poor are thrown in jail for virtually being unable to pay something that exceeds what they make. In most jurisdictions, support orders aren't even based on your actual income but on your pre-tax or imputed income. What does that mean ? It means what you'd be expected to make if you had a full time job, at minimum wage or median wage (which is why sometimes you hear about celebrities or athletes paying exorbitant amounts in child support). In various states such as South Carolina, Texas and others,the unemployment rate for African Americans is 12%, good luck with that. Lawmakers in the Obama Administration were trying to rewrite enforcement laws and make it so that Child Support be based on actual income and to consider the needs of the noncustodial parent, to stop child support debt to accrue while one is locked away and eliminate jail for people who can't pay.

It gets even worse... If the mother receives public assistance (such as welfare) the father (noncustodial parent) must also pay that back - even if he is poor. In a lot of cases child support actions are brought on by state officials who are looking for welfare reimbursement. So not only does the noncustodial parent become responsible for the child support but also welfare reimbursement ? Wtf.... Let's look at the relationship between welfare and child support..... There is an incentive that the custodial parent must pursue child support.

Some families are dependent on welfare and in order to apply they need to also state that they are receiving child support. The custodial parent can actually sue the noncustodial parent for it and at times is encouraged to. State government has an incentive to collect and raise arrears on these families for it's own gain. More than half the money owed in child support debt actually goes to the government not the child or family. And if a woman sues the man for the reimbursement, it can even affect a man's ability to apply for medicare and insurance. NOBODY WINS. It's one thing to have a bad baby mother, it's another to be stripped of your ability to provide for yourself or even have much of a life AFTERWARDS. Young people often make mistakes in relationships but they shouldn't be penalised for it for 18-22 years or the rest of their lives. FYI -- in some places like Canada, if the noncustodial can't pay the welfare reimbursement a judge may force the custodial parent to reimburse them for welfare up to a certain amount)

Furthermore this also means Black families cannot properly support themselves once that family has the male detached, they sever the root of the relationship between the parent and offspring because now that male is in jail and can't properly communicate or be in their child's life, not only that, you gimp his ability to provide for his family and so now he has to find a way to provide *Malcolm X voice* By any means necessary !!!!! This could mean turning to the underground economy, taking cash under the table, or selling drugs which only has 2 ends - jail or death. You don't make it fair, you emasculate the black man doing this and destroy the so-called head of the house. This is what is meant by socioeconomic reasons as to why people can't pay and why a law needs to be placed to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

(to reference and back my information about welfare and child support I provided a link in the spoiler, just in case the facts are questioned)

Spoiler

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/about-fathers/200812/welfare-and-child-support-nobody-wins
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Now in my next post I will bring this back full circle to show why child support shouldn't warrant jail time. Thank you.

This is my last response and it's short and sweet. He says his opponent brings up business and finances and if has nothing to do with the topic of child support...

He should know that the state and fed. goverment uses tax dollars to pay for housing,clothing, and feeding a child on gov. Assistance. They aren't locking people up just to fuck with them. They lock people up because it's a loan That they expect to be paid back...with interest. And if that's not paid with money, it's paid with time in jail. Cause time is money.

Where they get money from you being there. The point behind it is, im taking care of "your" responsibilities.

Thats all..

Damn sauce keeps setting himself up

Yo I absolutely LOST IT @ this gif. Well played.

Spoiler

I'm still running your fade tho.

Yes yes thank you and ofcourse babe..

 

[2stepz_ahead]

the public can add there opinion.

 

[2stepz_ahead]

see ...

solemn aint take him seriously.

not saying sion is s pushover. but you can't underestimate anyone, even if you have a good argument.

always bring a gun to a fistfight

 

[SolemnSauce]

The people know who got bodied here

 

[SolemnSauce]

Shot out to Sion for the W, you're a smart brotha so im sure u did ya research and alladat. Thats to be commended, like Pac said. You ain't gotta change the world, you just gotta inspire the mind that changes the world. Hopefully your responses inspires someone to change things in their city and or community.

 

[yellowtapesport]

Shot out to Sion for the W,

Nigga all the votes aint in yet

 

[Mastery]

Shot out to Sion for the W,

Nigga all the votes aint in yet

@_Goldie_ @"Bussy_Getta"

 

[_Goldie_]

Man Allergens fell df off this round compared to his debate with Kai.

This nigga misquoting mfs, using wrong names in his analogies "U remember Ridley Scott... the cop?"

This was another battle of opinion vs facts. It's cool to have an opinion on an issue, but at some point you're going to have to support it with facts and not only did Sion do that to support his stance but also to dismantle Allergen's.

Allergens made a few good points, but then he fucked it up with alot of dumb shit, ie comparing this topic to murder "I guess we should let all the killers out of jail, cuz life is hard" to not even being able to get the names in his arugment right.

Winner: Sion

 

[SolemnSauce]

Nah, ima be gracious

 

[SolemnSauce]

Nigga was quoting videos and pie charts that never existed. Nigga said in this video and didnt even post a video or chart

Aight tho..I'll sleep on that

 

[yellowtapesport]

Nah, ima be gracious

LOL but @_Goldie_ the GOAT judge

@Mastery be on point 99.9% of the time too