LMS Debate rd2. Does not paying child support warrant jail time

[2stepz_ahead]

wtf

 

[atribecalledgabi]

So why shouldn't people be jailed for missing Child Support ?

It's not only unnecessary but it greatly impairs a parent's ability to provide for their child afterwards. It creates a vicious cycle making it virtually impossible to escape putting them in a form of debt peonage (google for more information in the term) which isn't helpful at all to the family or person. It's too easy to sit and say "well you shouldn't have laid with her/him !" in that case you shouldn't live in the hood if you don't want to be poor - STOP there's too many socioeconomic reasons for why these things occur and human nature is impossible to predict. That's why we go to court, to deal with the consequences.

Here's some interesting stats from wiki, the NY Times and other sources:

If a person is sent to jail the child support doesn't stop, it arrears and becomes even more expensive to deal with. It's impossible to work from a jail and write checks. Not to mention you still have to rehabilitate people to get them back into society and working. As the NY Times article showed, plenty of young people get caught up and as a result lose decent jobs going to jail and then have to work even harder to find a new one that's even able to take care of the debt owed. The economic damage ? Approximately $35 billion nationwide. The cycle continues. There is a difference between the UNWILLING and the UNABLE. We have to find a way to rectify that. Imagine having 6 months to pay up 8k and you're apart of the 70% who make under $10,000 a year. Not everyone has a big homie or someone who can front them that. If you can't pay up you could lose professional licences, driver's licences and more restrictions which don't help at all and only curb one's ability to provide for their children. The current laws are ineffective and the cases shown prove it. This is an example of the UNABLE.

This program helped the issue and if given more time to garner more support can be written into legislation nationwide to reform child support laws and help people unable to make payments to avoid jail.
http://www.governing.com/topics/health-human-services/gov-child-support-delinquents-avoid-jail.html

From the article link:

"The judges recognize that incarceration doesn’t work for everyone because some people have legitimate reasons for not being able to pay."

This Intensive Case Monitoring Program (ICMP) is gaining momentum nationwide and has spread from Texas and into Virginia. With more years of success it can be written into legislation in several states to give protection to people from being jailed for not paying child support. At the very least it can stop the suspension of licences and give more leniency. It MIGHT alleviate the issue at hand. Several petitions nationwide are also aiming to get signatures to get local lawmakers to change state laws to help stop the vicious cycle.

This article and videos from the Huffington Post show the testimonies of several single parents (men and women who are paying child support) who find it extremely difficult to provide child support especially after they've been jailed. When this woman's husband was unable to pay child support, a judge in Florida actually made his ex-wife pay it instead. She was ordered to pay over $100k in child support. As I said, this is a system that's broken and needs reform. In the Huffington Post link you see families destroyed. The family court system is broken:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/05/28/jailed-parents-not-paying-child-support_n_7172910.html

^^^ Clifford Hall PAID his child support owed plus an extra thousand dollars and was still sentenced to 6 months in jail and lost his job. He's literally hanging by a thread trying to provide for his son.

"The topic has surfaced in the wake of the the fatal police shooting of Walter Scott, an unarmed 50-year-old South Carolina man. Scott's family has suggested that he ran from police because he was afraid of being sent to jail for failing to pay child support."

"Dwayne Ferebee, a father of four from Virginia, has received a prison sentence four times in the past 12 years because he was unable to pay child support. Speaking to the Washington Post, Ferebee explained how the judicial system is a vicious cycle: “All I was saying was, ‘Give me an opportunity instead of throwing me in jail because that just puts me further behind in child support. Let me find work so I can earn money.’”

I will be back with my next post to show you some critical points and a solution to the problem....

 

[SolemnSauce]

My friend Sion seems to think, and argument is. There should be no consequences because life is hard. Bernie Madoff shouldn't be in jail for running a Ponzi scheme. He could've made enough money to support him for life, then got out. But life is hard, he has friends, he has family, he has expenses. So lets just let him off and let him work to repay all the money he stole.

Influenza kid shouldn't have went to jail because life is hard. Not his fault he grew up rich and not culpable for his own actions. The peoples family members who died should understand, life is hard and we all make mistakes. Oh, and the cop that shot Michael Scott. Did you know that North Charleston is 47% black and 39% white?

Did you know that on the streets, black men out number police by 5 to 1? Did you know that a cops life is hard, his life is on the line. The average black man that he feels he has to deal with is a criminal. It's made his viewpoint of them shrewd and suspicious. When Micheal Scott attempted to fight him, all his days on the force. He was scared, he thought about all the black men he felt tried to take his life.

He lost it for a second and in cold blood murdered Micheal Scott. But, let him off, the statistics aren't his fault. We know he has a responsibility, but life is hard. Everyone of us who has kids know how difficult it is to have a child. We know the costs, we know the trials, we know that it is hard.

He brings up 10,000 dollars again, goes around in circles around it and doesn't argue against the point that it's $70 every two weeks. Knowing that non payment of child support lands you in jail not prison. Sion points out a man, father of 4, prison sentence four times in 12 years. I know what we all think of the system. But come on bruh, re-read the Facts of that.

Normal sentence jail; Prison,Four times, 12 years. Who do you know personally that dealt with something like that, if you do? What type of person are they?

I leave you with this, you'd think it would be easy to argue against Jail for non payment of Child support. You'd think your own knowledge of the facts are enough. My friend Sion is asking you to click link and google terms. Sounds like to me, he wants others to prove a point that he doesn't himself feel like he can prove on his own.

As a judge, Could you? If yes, why can't he?

 

[SolemnSauce]

We still doing this?

 

[HundredEyes]

My friend Sion seems to think, and argument is. There should be no consequences because life is hard. Bernie Madoff shouldn't be in jail for running a Ponzi scheme. He could've made enough money to support him for life, then got out. But life is hard, he has friends, he has family, he has expenses. So lets just let him off and let him work to repay all the money he stole.

Influenza kid shouldn't have went to jail because life is hard. Not his fault he grew up rich and not culpable for his own actions. The peoples family members who died should understand, life is hard and we all make mistakes. Oh, and the cop that shot Michael Scott. Did you know that North Charleston is 47% black and 39% white?

Did you know that on the streets, black men out number police by 5 to 1? Did you know that a cops life is hard, his life is on the line. The average black man that he feels he has to deal with is a criminal. It's made his viewpoint of them shrewd and suspicious. When Micheal Scott attempted to fight him, all his days on the force. He was scared, he thought about all the black men he felt tried to take his life.

He lost it for a second and in cold blood murdered Micheal Scott. But, let him off, the statistics aren't his fault. We know he has a responsibility, but life is hard. Everyone of us who has kids know how difficult it is to have a child. We know the costs, we know the trials, we know that it is hard.

He brings up 10,000 dollars again, goes around in circles around it and doesn't argue against the point that it's $70 every two weeks. Knowing that non payment of child support lands you in jail not prison. Sion points out a man, father of 4, prison sentence four times in 12 years. I know what we all think of the system. But come on bruh, re-read the Facts of that.

Normal sentence jail; Prison,Four times, 12 years. Who do you know personally that dealt with something like that, if you do? What type of person are they?

I leave you with this, you'd think it would be easy to argue against Jail for non payment of Child support. You'd think your own knowledge of the facts are enough. My friend Sion is asking you to click link and google terms. Sounds like to me, he wants others to prove a point that he doesn't himself feel like he can prove on his own.

As a judge, Could you? If yes, why can't he?

 

[SolemnSauce]

Well, I got a headache bruh...so yall will get the response tommorow sometime

 

[MsSouthern]

Hmmmm....

 

[MsSouthern]

Hmmmm....

I KNOW you have some things to say MsS but spectators can't post or speak about the topic until after the debate, it's just to keep it fair for both sides !! We're almost done just be patient LOLOLOL

I'll be patiently waiting for the end .... lol

 

[SolemnSauce]

First off it's Walter Scott not Michael Scott (I guess he's referring to homie from the Office?), I know that Allergens likes to make jokes and not take it serious, but at the end of the day bullshit aside that's a human being that died. Moving on....

As for 10k my opponent is taking parts of the information and trying to alter it to meet his narrative as he blatantly said he would.

"parents had a median annual income of $6,349, arrears of $9,447 and an ongoing support of $300 per month because 71% of the orders were set by default". -- I want yall to keep this in mind from the chart picture, more on it later....

Now a critical point, the unable and the unwilling. In the chart I also posted, you can see a substantial amount of people who are unable to pay and the testimonies of people who did manage to pay and STILL went to jail. There's a systemic issue in the system that's destroying the families and a person's ability to pay. Going back to the chart I posted here's some FYI:

"Some states (such as California) automatically garnish up to 50% of pre-tax income to pay child support arrears. This can present a hardship in states whose cost of living is high. The Out of Reach report produced by the National Low Income Housing Coalition sets 30% of household income as an affordable level for housing costs. After a loss of 50% of takehome income, the suggested expenditure on rent also decreases 50%.

California’s Fair market rent (FMR) for a two-bedroom apartment is $1,149. In order to afford rent and utilities, without paying more than 30% of income on housing, a household must earn $3,829 monthly or $45,950 annually. Assuming a standard work schedule, housing alone requires a wage of $22.09, far above California's $8.00 minimum. Adding child support essentially doubles the necessary income. If the obligor has no other child support debts, earns California minimum wage working 40 hours a week, has no benefits, and the custodial spouse does not work, the expected payment is closer to $320"

^^^ this is what is defined as the unable. Clifford Hall from the video presented is a man who tried everything in his power to provide for his son and still was unable to come up with the means to pay it and even when he did he still went to jail. After that, those arrears still mounted, he wasn't able to find employment because of being sent to jail. More than likely he will be sent back to jail again as he struggles to pay his child support. And this is assuming the baby mother doesn't put her foot on his neck and ask to increase the payments among other things. This is essentially debt peonage - where someone is indebted indefinitely to work to pay a debt that is owed and is earning interest in arrears faster than they can make. This is a real issue and Child Support should NOT WARRANT JAIL TIME.

Sion what about a solution ??

Well, use aspects of the ICMP to form laws to protect people from specifically being targeted, and add other laws to protect peoples rights from even being sent to jail. Some of these people are every day workers who may fall ill and be unable to pay, they may be laid off, bad economy, interpersonal relationships with the other parent, socioeconomic reasons, there's so much that can happen. One woman from my Huffington Post video was ordered to pay over a 100k, she's never going to be able to pay that. There's still the issue of paying child support from jail and once a person is sent there they lose the job they have and means to pay child support. Several states such as New Hampshire, South Carolina, Virginia and others are already discussing reform to laws revolving around child support. Many of these states can adopt aspects of ICMP statewide to provide legal counsel or provisions to stop payments from compounding. This means that there is growing discontent and a noticeable problem in the system that lawmakers are trying to rectify and improve because not only do they feel that child support should not warrant jail time, but they recognise the systemic issue of doing so and how much it hampers one's ability to provide.

It's not far fetched that over a long period of time, more states can adopt this and eventually place laws to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

In my next post I will further piece my points together, introduce another issue and show the bigger picture of why not paying child support should not warrant jail time. In my 5th post I will bring everything full circle. Thank you.

My apologizes to the memory of Mr.Walter Scott. I was thinking of the countless black men struck down by cops, and Micheal Brown as also on my mind. To many instances of "life is hard" excuses from police, don't you think Sion.

My friend Sion works in finances, and he knows first hand im sure about struggling companies and their cost of still doing business. Im sure if an investor came to him and said "Sion, this guy started three businesses under the promise of my help. He's in the red all the times because of poor money management and being in over his head due to bad decisions. I don't think I can get the money I invested him and "his" business. What would you do?"

Im sure Sions reponse by his opinion stated here is.

Sion "Im sure when he started his first business and he couldn't make the payments, it was because his life his hard and things happen. And,..I'm sure when he started his second business, sometimes...things just happen. And..I'm sure when he started his third business, well..you know how we do. Don't cut him loose, just if anything create a payment plan"

Investor "But Sion he isn't paying me back as it is, how do I even know he's gonna pay me back if there isn't a stiff penalty for not doing so. And if word gets around that this is how I do business, whats to stop the next person from doing The same thing?"

Sion

"You have to be understanding that life is hard, and people make mistakes"

Investor "Excuse me but..."

 

[_Goldie_]

This debate still goin?

 

[Mastery]

This debate still goin?

Yeah man, Solemnsauce is 4 posts deep and Sion is 3 deep as we await his 4th response to Solemn.

 

[Mastery]

I'll be home in another hour I will post my rebuttal when I get home.

edit

K wait I just seen Solemn made his post at 5:47 am this morning. I'll post mine when I get home.

Yeah, we know nigga. You just said the same damn thing two times in a row.

"I will post my rebuttal when I get home."

"I'll post mine when I get home."

 

[SolemnSauce]

That nigga befuddled beloved

 

[atribecalledgabi]

That nigga befuddled beloved

.....and things of that nature

 

[Bussy_Getta]

Mannnnn I'm loving it

 

[CapitalB]

 

[SolemnSauce]

My opponent still brings up points that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, like the finance business. In business if you can't pay the mortgage the bank repossesses/forecloses on the house &/or car, if your business goes under or stock goes to zero you take a loss or you can file for bankruptcy - but you're not going to jail for it tho. That's a civil matter not a criminal one, I'm not going off on that tangent, whole nother debate for someone else.

Jailing people for child support is predatory, puts the payee into a form of debt peonage, eliminates the ability to pay long-term (due to loss of job, etc), can destroy the family structure, can be horribly abused by an angry woman, and is ongoing as a vicious cycle. Clifford Hall, Walter Scott, Jahmal Holmes, the people in our video posted all victims and in Clifford's case he actually managed to make payments. Not only are personal assets, professional licences, or tax refunds seized, but they're also thrown in jail. Families that are poor are thrown in jail for virtually being unable to pay something that exceeds what they make. In most jurisdictions, support orders aren't even based on your actual income but on your pre-tax or imputed income. What does that mean ? It means what you'd be expected to make if you had a full time job, at minimum wage or median wage (which is why sometimes you hear about celebrities or athletes paying exorbitant amounts in child support). In various states such as South Carolina, Texas and others,the unemployment rate for African Americans is 12%, good luck with that. Lawmakers in the Obama Administration were trying to rewrite enforcement laws and make it so that Child Support be based on actual income and to consider the needs of the noncustodial parent, to stop child support debt to accrue while one is locked away and eliminate jail for people who can't pay.

It gets even worse... If the mother receives public assistance (such as welfare) the father (noncustodial parent) must also pay that back - even if he is poor. In a lot of cases child support actions are brought on by state officials who are looking for welfare reimbursement. So not only does the noncustodial parent become responsible for the child support but also welfare reimbursement ? Wtf.... Let's look at the relationship between welfare and child support..... There is an incentive that the custodial parent must pursue child support.

Some families are dependent on welfare and in order to apply they need to also state that they are receiving child support. The custodial parent can actually sue the noncustodial parent for it and at times is encouraged to. State government has an incentive to collect and raise arrears on these families for it's own gain. More than half the money owed in child support debt actually goes to the government not the child or family. And if a woman sues the man for the reimbursement, it can even affect a man's ability to apply for medicare and insurance. NOBODY WINS. It's one thing to have a bad baby mother, it's another to be stripped of your ability to provide for yourself or even have much of a life AFTERWARDS. Young people often make mistakes in relationships but they shouldn't be penalised for it for 18-22 years or the rest of their lives. FYI -- in some places like Canada, if the noncustodial can't pay the welfare reimbursement a judge may force the custodial parent to reimburse them for welfare up to a certain amount)

Furthermore this also means Black families cannot properly support themselves once that family has the male detached, they sever the root of the relationship between the parent and offspring because now that male is in jail and can't properly communicate or be in their child's life, not only that, you gimp his ability to provide for his family and so now he has to find a way to provide *Malcolm X voice* By any means necessary !!!!! This could mean turning to the underground economy, taking cash under the table, or selling drugs which only has 2 ends - jail or death. You don't make it fair, you emasculate the black man doing this and destroy the so-called head of the house. This is what is meant by socioeconomic reasons as to why people can't pay and why a law needs to be placed to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

(to reference and back my information about welfare and child support I provided a link in the spoiler, just in case the facts are questioned)

Spoiler

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/about-fathers/200812/welfare-and-child-support-nobody-wins
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Now in my next post I will bring this back full circle to show why child support shouldn't warrant jail time. Thank you.

This is my last response and it's short and sweet. He says his opponent brings up business and finances and if has nothing to do with the topic of child support...

He should know that the state and fed. goverment uses tax dollars to pay for housing,clothing, and feeding a child on gov. Assistance. They aren't locking people up just to fuck with them. They lock people up because it's a loan That they expect to be paid back...with interest. And if that's not paid with money, it's paid with time in jail. Cause time is money.

Where they get money from you being there. The point behind it is, im taking care of "your" responsibilities.

Thats all..

 

[CapitalB]

"now fuckin pay me!"

 

[CapitalB]

"Thats all.."

 

[HundredEyes]

My opponent still brings up points that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, like the finance business. In business if you can't pay the mortgage the bank repossesses/forecloses on the house &/or car, if your business goes under or stock goes to zero you take a loss or you can file for bankruptcy - but you're not going to jail for it tho. That's a civil matter not a criminal one, I'm not going off on that tangent, whole nother debate for someone else.

Jailing people for child support is predatory, puts the payee into a form of debt peonage, eliminates the ability to pay long-term (due to loss of job, etc), can destroy the family structure, can be horribly abused by an angry woman, and is ongoing as a vicious cycle. Clifford Hall, Walter Scott, Jahmal Holmes, the people in our video posted all victims and in Clifford's case he actually managed to make payments. Not only are personal assets, professional licences, or tax refunds seized, but they're also thrown in jail. Families that are poor are thrown in jail for virtually being unable to pay something that exceeds what they make. In most jurisdictions, support orders aren't even based on your actual income but on your pre-tax or imputed income. What does that mean ? It means what you'd be expected to make if you had a full time job, at minimum wage or median wage (which is why sometimes you hear about celebrities or athletes paying exorbitant amounts in child support). In various states such as South Carolina, Texas and others,the unemployment rate for African Americans is 12%, good luck with that. Lawmakers in the Obama Administration were trying to rewrite enforcement laws and make it so that Child Support be based on actual income and to consider the needs of the noncustodial parent, to stop child support debt to accrue while one is locked away and eliminate jail for people who can't pay.

It gets even worse... If the mother receives public assistance (such as welfare) the father (noncustodial parent) must also pay that back - even if he is poor. In a lot of cases child support actions are brought on by state officials who are looking for welfare reimbursement. So not only does the noncustodial parent become responsible for the child support but also welfare reimbursement ? Wtf.... Let's look at the relationship between welfare and child support..... There is an incentive that the custodial parent must pursue child support.

Some families are dependent on welfare and in order to apply they need to also state that they are receiving child support. The custodial parent can actually sue the noncustodial parent for it and at times is encouraged to. State government has an incentive to collect and raise arrears on these families for it's own gain. More than half the money owed in child support debt actually goes to the government not the child or family. And if a woman sues the man for the reimbursement, it can even affect a man's ability to apply for medicare and insurance. NOBODY WINS. It's one thing to have a bad baby mother, it's another to be stripped of your ability to provide for yourself or even have much of a life AFTERWARDS. Young people often make mistakes in relationships but they shouldn't be penalised for it for 18-22 years or the rest of their lives. FYI -- in some places like Canada, if the noncustodial can't pay the welfare reimbursement a judge may force the custodial parent to reimburse them for welfare up to a certain amount)

Furthermore this also means Black families cannot properly support themselves once that family has the male detached, they sever the root of the relationship between the parent and offspring because now that male is in jail and can't properly communicate or be in their child's life, not only that, you gimp his ability to provide for his family and so now he has to find a way to provide *Malcolm X voice* By any means necessary !!!!! This could mean turning to the underground economy, taking cash under the table, or selling drugs which only has 2 ends - jail or death. You don't make it fair, you emasculate the black man doing this and destroy the so-called head of the house. This is what is meant by socioeconomic reasons as to why people can't pay and why a law needs to be placed to protect people from being jailed for not paying child support.

(to reference and back my information about welfare and child support I provided a link in the spoiler, just in case the facts are questioned)

Spoiler

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/about-fathers/200812/welfare-and-child-support-nobody-wins
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

Now in my next post I will bring this back full circle to show why child support shouldn't warrant jail time. Thank you.

This is my last response and it's short and sweet. He says his opponent brings up business and finances and if has nothing to do with the topic of child support...

He should know that the state and fed. goverment uses tax dollars to pay for housing,clothing, and feeding a child on gov. Assistance. They aren't locking people up just to fuck with them. They lock people up because it's a loan That they expect to be paid back...with interest. And if that's not paid with money, it's paid with time in jail. Cause time is money.

Where they get money from you being there. The point behind it is, im taking care of "your" responsibilities.

Thats all..

Damn sauce keeps setting himself up