Legend, Overrated, or GOAT Vol. 2: Jay-Z

[D_Rap_Scholar]

Me and The Lonious are on the same page.... to put Jay-Z in my Top 10 would be an insult to the pure emcees who are really are serious about their lyrical craft, and the artists who really want to push their work to new creative depths. lol for a while, I felt maaad guilty for not ranking Jay-Z high on my list. Until I heard Moment of Clarity......

If skills sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyricly Talib Kweli

Truthfully, I wanna rhyme like common sense

But I did five mil, I ain't been rhymin' like common since

^^^When I heard Jay-Z say those words, I realized deep down, that I was right after all. It just goes to show that my priorities as a hip hop head were different than his. He wants to sell records, I wanna hear you spit a verse that makes my heart stop.

name 10 emcees better than him and with better catalogs

The best emcees don't need to make better albums...they just need to spit better rhymes lol nah, j/k

Honestly, most rappers I listen to don't have a catalouge as long as Jay's or as well known...so that's not a comparison I can make easily. It just goes to show you how successful of a career Hov has had in the rap game. But for me, the real difference comes with having skills....no matter how successful you are. So many of the dopest rappers right now aren't even in the spotlight, but they remind me what the art of emceeing is really supposed to be about.

In looking back at my remarks, I realize I might've gotten outta hand and let the purist in me go wild. I didn't mean to say Jay-z doesn't deserve Top 10 mention. But for someone whose claimed to have made a career out of watered down music for profit, it makes me wonder whether Jay-Z can really be the best example of a rap emcee. There are more devoted rappers, who may not be as well known, but really do wish to bring the best that the art has to offer, and I don't hear that same hunger or thirst in Jay-Z music. As a GOAT and/or rap legend, you're supposed to be holding it down for niggas on the mic - not just going after top dollar.

Hov, you can't be both an entrepreneur and an emcee at the same time...you gotta make up your mind fam

 

[joeyfkncrakk]

GOAT

Men lie, women lie..... Numbers don't

 

[D_Rap_Scholar]

upping

 

[The Lonious Monk]

So if I think Ali is the greatest, does that mean that one could reasonably conclude that I think Tyson is overrated (based on popular opinion)? That's not necessarily true. That would demonstrate a very linear thought process to have you arrive there. I don't think that Rakim is the GOAT, nor have I ever found him to be that impressive personally. Notwithstanding, I still can see how his body of work has put him in a position to be heralded in such a way. I may not agree but I defnitely cannot say that I think he's undeserving of a considerable amount of people thinking just that. Overrated simply means that the acclaim is somehow unwarranted.

And I think the acclaim is unwarranted. If people rate him as the hands down best, and I feel he's not that at all, then IMO they are overrating him. It's just that simple. I don't think his catalog is good enough to put him there, and I think a lot of people tie his business savvy too closely to his ability as an MC.

I absolutely feel that he is underappreciated, as an ARTIST. As of late, he is praised foremost as an icon or for various business ventures. His catalog is exceptional. He's highly conceptual, which is part of the reason why I think he's underappreciated, and he happens to be one of very few rappers who is good at e v e r y t h i n g, in terms of his approach to music. We can go down the rubric from his story telling abilities, complexity, delivery, dexterity in cadence, wit, and just overall command of the English language. I'm not sure how many rappers can rival what he has put out.

He's praised more as an icon and businessman now because he's making more moves in those arenas than the music industry. It's not like people have suddenly stopped praising him as a rapper. Hell, he added an average ass verse to "Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe" and people were acting like that alone made the song into to the greatest thing to come out in the past decade.

I'd agree, that he's a very versatile rapper and he is definitely in the discussion of greatest ever. But people like you and a lot of his other fans act like anyone who suggests he's not at the very least Top 3 is crazy. That's a sign of overrating, because you can easily come up with 3 MCs that could be put ahead of him.

Nah at all. I'm not suggesting that he should be in everyone's top 3. I'm basically saying the inverse. That calling him overrated is like asking "How can people so often mention him among the greats." To even pretend that you don't understand how is just dishonest imo.

No, I call him overrated, not because I don't see how people call him great. I call him overrated, because people, several of which have posted in this topic, say he's unequivocally the best which to me is overrating him. I call him overrated because people act like he has a great catalog when he really doesn't. I'm not a Jay hater. I've given him an honest chance. I've listened to all of his albums multiple times. I own Reasonable Doubt, and I have a lot of his classic tracks on my mixes and playlists. That said, I don't think he's as good as his fans say he is and his catalog is mediocre to me.

 

[Muhannad]

Jigga's a legend to me. He's an iconic figure, like a rapping version of Madonna. Which rapper has made moves like him? This brother alledgedly came up as a drugdealer from Marcy projects. He was trying to get on in the early 90ties and finally broke through in '98. Now he's rubbing shoulders with the likes of Warren Buffet, Prince Charles and Obama. He has come a long way...

Like others have stated a big part of the acclaim he gets is for non-music related stuff like the powermoves he makes, his wife etc. It's hard to seperate these...

 

[ohhhla]

So if I think Ali is the greatest, does that mean that one could reasonably conclude that I think Tyson is overrated (based on popular opinion)? That's not necessarily true. That would demonstrate a very linear thought process to have you arrive there. I don't think that Rakim is the GOAT, nor have I ever found him to be that impressive personally. Notwithstanding, I still can see how his body of work has put him in a position to be heralded in such a way. I may not agree but I defnitely cannot say that I think he's undeserving of a considerable amount of people thinking just that. Overrated simply means that the acclaim is somehow unwarranted.

And I think the acclaim is unwarranted. If people rate him as the hands down best, and I feel he's not that at all, then IMO they are overrating him. It's just that simple. I don't think his catalog is good enough to put him there, and I think a lot of people tie his business savvy too closely to his ability as an MC.

I absolutely feel that he is underappreciated, as an ARTIST. As of late, he is praised foremost as an icon or for various business ventures. His catalog is exceptional. He's highly conceptual, which is part of the reason why I think he's underappreciated, and he happens to be one of very few rappers who is good at e v e r y t h i n g, in terms of his approach to music. We can go down the rubric from his story telling abilities, complexity, delivery, dexterity in cadence, wit, and just overall command of the English language. I'm not sure how many rappers can rival what he has put out.

He's praised more as an icon and businessman now because he's making more moves in those arenas than the music industry. It's not like people have suddenly stopped praising him as a rapper. Hell, he added an average ass verse to "Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe" and people were acting like that alone made the song into to the greatest thing to come out in the past decade.

I'd agree, that he's a very versatile rapper and he is definitely in the discussion of greatest ever. But people like you and a lot of his other fans act like anyone who suggests he's not at the very least Top 3 is crazy. That's a sign of overrating, because you can easily come up with 3 MCs that could be put ahead of him.

Nah at all. I'm not suggesting that he should be in everyone's top 3. I'm basically saying the inverse. That calling him overrated is like asking "How can people so often mention him among the greats." To even pretend that you don't understand how is just dishonest imo.

No, I call him overrated, not because I don't see how people call him great. I call him overrated, because people, several of which have posted in this topic, say he's unequivocally the best which to me is overrating him. I call him overrated because people act like he has a great catalog when he really doesn't. I'm not a Jay hater. I've given him an honest chance. I've listened to all of his albums multiple times. I own Reasonable Doubt, and I have a lot of his classic tracks on my mixes and playlists. That said, I don't think he's as good as his fans say he is and his catalog is mediocre to me.

Same can be said about a lot of G.O.A.T. candidates.

 

[Muhannad]

This post will get alot of no-signs but IDGAF.

Jay Z's the rapping version of Madonna. In the next paragraph I'll explain why...

Jay Z is a dope rapper. His flow is unmatched; he can rhyme to any beat. When he wants to he's one of the best. The Madonna comparison stems from the fact he'll align himself with whoever's hot at that moment. He'll have his sh*t sound like whatever is hot at that moment. More than 20 years ago he was rapping with Jaz and kinda sounding like what rappers sounded like back then. In '96 he was rapping with BIG. RD kinda sounded like his sh*t. When the south started to make more noize he started jumping on tracks with hot rappers from there. You could hear him on that "Ha" remix with Juvie. Around the same time he jumped on tracks with DMX who was hot at that time. When 50 blew ten years ago he toured and worked with him. In the early to mid '00's he rapped with these Philly n*ggas and you can hear the influence of especially a Young Chris. He was even borrowing the same adlibs and flow for a while. When 'Ye wanted to be more than a producer Jay wasn't really feeling him, but when 'Ye blew he started collaborating with him. I could go on but ya'll get the point. Like Madonna he aligns himself with whoever's hot at that moment. When these artists fell off he didn't work with him.

Jay Z is the ultimate hustler. He knows how to play the game. This brother will use people when they can be beneficial to him, but once he doesn't need 'em he won't mess with them no more. Whether it's artists, hustlers (n*ggas like Dehaven and Calvin Klein all said the same) or business partners.

PS Folks need to understand Jay Z's an endorser rather than a business man. He lends his name to organizations to make the products hot with a certain demographic. He's a brand just like a Lebron is...

 

[D_Rap_Scholar]

This post will get alot of no-signs but IDGAF.

Jay Z's the rapping version of Madonna. In the next paragraph I'll explain why...

Jay Z is a dope rapper. His flow is unmatched; he can rhyme to any beat. When he wants to he's one of the best. The Madonna comparison stems from the fact he'll align himself with whoever's hot at that moment. He'll have his sh*t sound like whatever is hot at that moment. More than 20 years ago he was rapping with Jaz and kinda sounding like what rappers sounded like back then. In '96 he was rapping with BIG. RD kinda sounded like his sh*t. When the south started to make more noize he started jumping on tracks with hot rappers from there. You could hear him on that "Ha" remix with Juvie. Around the same time he jumped on tracks with DMX who was hot at that time. When 50 blew ten years ago he toured and worked with him. In the early to mid '00's he rapped with these Philly n*ggas and you can hear the influence of especially a Young Chris. He was even borrowing the same adlibs and flow for a while. When 'Ye wanted to be more than a producer Jay wasn't really feeling him, but when 'Ye blew he started collaborating with him. I could go on but ya'll get the point. Like Madonna he aligns himself with whoever's hot at that moment. When these artists fell off he didn't work with him.

Jay Z is the ultimate hustler. He knows how to play the game. This brother will use people when they can be beneficial to him, but once he doesn't need 'em he won't mess with them no more. Whether it's artists, hustlers (n*ggas like Dehaven and Calvin Klein all said the same) or business partners.

PS Folks need to understand Jay Z's an endorser rather than a business man. He lends his name to organizations to make the products hot with a certain demographic. He's a brand just like a Lebron is...

With all that commercialization and money-oriented glamour he's brought to hip hop, do you think Jay-Z's had a positive impact on our culture? I just wanna hear your thoughts, cause I'm trying to figure out how I can still respect dude for shit he himself feels ambivalent about (e.g "not rhyming like Talib or Common")

 

[killaguwop]

This post will get alot of no-signs but IDGAF.

Jay Z's the rapping version of Madonna. In the next paragraph I'll explain why...

Jay Z is a dope rapper. His flow is unmatched; he can rhyme to any beat. When he wants to he's one of the best. The Madonna comparison stems from the fact he'll align himself with whoever's hot at that moment. He'll have his sh*t sound like whatever is hot at that moment. More than 20 years ago he was rapping with Jaz and kinda sounding like what rappers sounded like back then. In '96 he was rapping with BIG. RD kinda sounded like his sh*t. When the south started to make more noize he started jumping on tracks with hot rappers from there. You could hear him on that "Ha" remix with Juvie. Around the same time he jumped on tracks with DMX who was hot at that time. When 50 blew ten years ago he toured and worked with him. In the early to mid '00's he rapped with these Philly n*ggas and you can hear the influence of especially a Young Chris. He was even borrowing the same adlibs and flow for a while. When 'Ye wanted to be more than a producer Jay wasn't really feeling him, but when 'Ye blew he started collaborating with him. I could go on but ya'll get the point. Like Madonna he aligns himself with whoever's hot at that moment. When these artists fell off he didn't work with him.

Jay Z is the ultimate hustler. He knows how to play the game. This brother will use people when they can be beneficial to him, but once he doesn't need 'em he won't mess with them no more. Whether it's artists, hustlers (n*ggas like Dehaven and Calvin Klein all said the same) or business partners.

PS Folks need to understand Jay Z's an endorser rather than a business man. He lends his name to organizations to make the products hot with a certain demographic. He's a brand just like a Lebron is...

c/s all you said but that doesn't make a him a dickrider snake.i 've seen him use friends against him to handle his beefs like tru-life and jim jones and then he didn't give a fuck about lizzy after he signed him. he also give up kareem and dash his longtime peers who made him. but one thing i am positive about jay from the first time i heard him i just wasn't convinced with his tough guy persona. he is sure a hustler and i admire him as an artist. he is in my top 5.but i like nas more cuz he a spiritual emotional kind hearted nigga and you can feel that in his rhymes.

 

[Muhannad]

This post will get alot of no-signs but IDGAF.

Jay Z's the rapping version of Madonna. In the next paragraph I'll explain why...

Jay Z is a dope rapper. His flow is unmatched; he can rhyme to any beat. When he wants to he's one of the best. The Madonna comparison stems from the fact he'll align himself with whoever's hot at that moment. He'll have his sh*t sound like whatever is hot at that moment. More than 20 years ago he was rapping with Jaz and kinda sounding like what rappers sounded like back then. In '96 he was rapping with BIG. RD kinda sounded like his sh*t. When the south started to make more noize he started jumping on tracks with hot rappers from there. You could hear him on that "Ha" remix with Juvie. Around the same time he jumped on tracks with DMX who was hot at that time. When 50 blew ten years ago he toured and worked with him. In the early to mid '00's he rapped with these Philly n*ggas and you can hear the influence of especially a Young Chris. He was even borrowing the same adlibs and flow for a while. When 'Ye wanted to be more than a producer Jay wasn't really feeling him, but when 'Ye blew he started collaborating with him. I could go on but ya'll get the point. Like Madonna he aligns himself with whoever's hot at that moment. When these artists fell off he didn't work with him.

Jay Z is the ultimate hustler. He knows how to play the game. This brother will use people when they can be beneficial to him, but once he doesn't need 'em he won't mess with them no more. Whether it's artists, hustlers (n*ggas like Dehaven and Calvin Klein all said the same) or business partners.

PS Folks need to understand Jay Z's an endorser rather than a business man. He lends his name to organizations to make the products hot with a certain demographic. He's a brand just like a Lebron is...

With all that commercialization and money-oriented glamour he's brought to hip hop, do you think Jay-Z's had a positive impact on our culture? I just wanna hear your thoughts, cause I'm trying to figure out how I can still respect dude for shit he himself feels ambivalent about (e.g "not rhyming like Talib or Common")

When he started getting big, that money-oriented glamour was already being pushed heavily by Diddy and Master P. Jigga just continued it.

This rapsh*t is a profession. Jigga never made it a secret he's a hustler first. He'll sell whatever he thinks his buyer's market demands. All that artistic sh*t is secondary to him. He admitted to this himself numerous times, so I think we have to respect him for his honesty.

 

[R.D.]

Jay gets more credit for being able to adapt and simplify his shit for the casual listener and show off his skill at the same time

When he says lyrically he'd be Talib Kweli or Common, he means subject matter wise because he's clearly a better lyricists based on my standards than either of them

 

[twatgetta]

I think if I plagarized the shit outta every other rapper in the game I'd be pretty cocky about it too.

Overrated.

 

[usmarin3]

Jay-z is easilly top 3 if you measure him on the basic categories of being a mc.

Flow

Delivery

Stage presence

Catalog

Lyricism

Consistency/Longevity

Influence

Dude is top 5 in all those categories imo. He might not cater to what "heads'' want all the time, but he has shit on his albums for them, even his so so albums.

I think where he loses some people is his fanbase is pretty vast and diverse and niggas catch feelings when he doesn't make music that doesn't cater to them (commercial, club,etc raps)

 

[Lebong James]

FACT: you can't sit through any of Jay Z's albums without skipping a song or two at the very least

therefore=Not GOAT

 

[usmarin3]

FACT: you can't sit through any of Jay Z's albums without skipping a song or two at the very least

therefore=Not GOAT

Every artist albums for the most part has skippable songs, and that's including Pac, Nas, Face, and Cube (who make up my top 5). The fact that you think any artist has all flawless albums is stupid.

 

[Muhannad]

Everybody got their own definition but to me a classic is an album you can play back to back. What Lebong is saying is Jigga has no album that can be played back to back...

 

[usmarin3]

Everybody got their own definition but to me a classic is an album you can play back to back. What Lebong is saying is Jigga has no album that can be played back to back...

I personally skip Nas is coming off It Was Written, Braveheart Party off Stillmatic,etc and i still consider those albums classic. One or two songs that's not great doesn't make a album not classic, if that was the case All Eyez on Me wouldn't be classic with songs like What's ya phone number or Life After Death with Another Man.

I can name a bunch of great albums rated classic with skippable tracks.

 

[Lebong James]

FACT: you can't sit through any of Jay Z's albums without skipping a song or two at the very least

therefore=Not GOAT

Every artist albums for the most part has skippable songs, and that's including Pac, Nas, Face, and Cube (who make up my top 5). The fact that you think any artist has all flawless albums is stupid.

im being kind for jigga stans, let me rephrase that

Jay has 2 or 3 terrible albums and even his best albums have 2 or 3 songs that are skippable

 

[usmarin3]

FACT: you can't sit through any of Jay Z's albums without skipping a song or two at the very least

therefore=Not GOAT

Every artist albums for the most part has skippable songs, and that's including Pac, Nas, Face, and Cube (who make up my top 5). The fact that you think any artist has all flawless albums is stupid.

im being kind for jigga stans, let me rephrase that

Jay has 2 or 3 terrible albums and even his best albums have 2 or 3 songs that are skippable

So does Nas, Nastradamus, Street Disciple, etc aren't good albums.

Ice Cube got bad albums with War and Piece vol 1 and War and Peace Vol 2

KRS got wack albums

So does Face

So does everyone

When i say wack, i mean for their standards, not Soulja Boy standards. lol

I mean how many albums out there in hiphop, much less music are considered pure classic with no so so songs. What, Thriller, Off the Wall, Songs in the key of life,etc. Every album has that 1 or 2 songs that are so so.

The worst songs on Jay-z albums that people might consider classic are Ain't no nigga, That nigga jigga, and Justify my thug. Those songs aren't even wack to me.

 

[ohhhla]

Justify my Thug is my shit.

Those other two ain't.