The Iconoclast
New member
pissedoffnobody;7086606 said:
deadeye;7086659 said:
I respect your opinion Deadeye, and we'll probably eventually end up having to agree to disagree because this topic has been discussed ad nauseam. However, everything you guys just said fits in the framework of ambivalent sexism.
It's a theoretical concept that is composed of two parts:
"Hostile sexism - Hostile sexism reflects overtly negative evaluations and stereotypes about a gender (e.g. the ideas that women are incompetent and inferior to men or that all men are potential rapists).
Benevolent sexism - Benevolent sexism represents evaluations of gender that may appear subjectively positive, but are actually damaging to people and gender equity more broadly (e.g. the ideas that women need to be protected by men or that men aren't fit to take care of children)."
Here are links that go into detail about its affects society and how societal norms perpetuate them, hurting women more than men:
474miranairresearchpaper.wmwikis.net/file/view/Glick_Fiske%5B1%5D.pdf
academia.edu/1876044/Ambivalent_sexism_at_home_and_at_work_How_attitudes_toward_women_in_relationships_foster_exclusion_in_the_public_sphere
----
Anyway, here's my thoughts: Both men and women benefit from gender roles and societal norms and both suffer from them. However, our system is designed for men to inherently benefit from them more and women to inherently suffer from them more, which explains the disparate power/influence both genders have in the US(the gap is even wider globally). Sexism like Racism, via law reform and education has been attacked so much that in this day and age overt prejudice is an unlikely occurrence but it's still there covertly and it manifests itself through norms.
Think about how normative the thought of "The man is supposed to be the head of the household" is among men and women or when a saying along the lines of "I'll teach my son what it takes to be a Man..." gets uttered by both genders or the notion that masculinity is superior to femininity, so words that have a feminine connotation are used as insults. It is why the term 'patriarchal' is apt when describing these norms.
All of this is rooted from our interpretation of the biological difference between a male and a female.
desertrain10
New member
deadeye;7086659 said:
The family court system and criminal justice system may seem to be biased against men, but the outcomes of this institutions is a manifestation of the patriarchy in our society and in our own homes
They are a reflection of the patriarchal notion that men are not meant to be caregivers and that women are not meant to breadwinners... men are strong, women weak...etc
This may seem to give women the advantage, but it actually does the opposite... the very same patriarchal attitudes and values are what make it harder for women to pursue a career in a high paying field, climb the corporate ladder, land that promotion at work, get elected to public office, and harder for them to climb ranks in the military
And no, it was just a bad analogy... America is still a patriarchy, whether or not women in American have more rights and freedoms than women in a country like Afghanistan is beside the point lol
Trashboat;7089947 said:
I suppose in that sense we are living in a patriarchal society.
Problem is, most feminists seem to only look at it from the perspective of it being detrimental to women.
While that may be true in some regards, in other areas women actually get several benefits and protections under this patriarchal society.
That's the main point I was arguing.
Basically, that feminists don't want true equality....they want it both ways.
They want to highlight all of the obstacles of living in a patriarchal society without acknowledging the benefits they get from living in that same society.
My apologies @desertrain10 .....looks like you were right all along.
I was wrong.
We are living in a patriarchal society after all.
I finally see the error of my ways.
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Down South Slangin
New member
And the word of the day is...
"Feminism"
You mfs done used that word so much in here got damn
"Feminism"
You mfs done used that word so much in here got damn
Feminism is geared towards white women.
For a WOC (woman of color) to benefit the use of "feminism", she first must deny her ethnicity to ensure her voice to be heard in a "feminist" debate. Because race and "feminism" are seen as mutually exclusive, where women of color experience sexism and racism isnt seen as an experience all women can relate to in their lives.
Im not a feminist, I am a womanist.
For a WOC (woman of color) to benefit the use of "feminism", she first must deny her ethnicity to ensure her voice to be heard in a "feminist" debate. Because race and "feminism" are seen as mutually exclusive, where women of color experience sexism and racism isnt seen as an experience all women can relate to in their lives.
Im not a feminist, I am a womanist.
deadeye;7090406 said:Trashboat;7089947 said:
I suppose in that sense we are living in a patriarchal society.
Problem is, most feminists seem to only look at it from the perspective of it being detrimental to women.
While that may be true in some regards, in other areas women actually get several benefits and protections under this patriarchal society.
That's the main point I was arguing.
Basically, that feminists don't want true equality....they want it both ways.
They want to highlight all of the obstacles of living in a patriarchal society without acknowledging the benefits they get from living in that same society.
My apologies @desertrain10 .....looks like you were right all along.
I was wrong.
We are living in a patriarchal society after all.
I finally see the error of my ways.
It would be harder to sell the idea of female oppression if they discussed things that currently benefit them
Trashboat;7092830 said:deadeye;7090406 said:Trashboat;7089947 said:
I suppose in that sense we are living in a patriarchal society.
Problem is, most feminists seem to only look at it from the perspective of it being detrimental to women.
While that may be true in some regards, in other areas women actually get several benefits and protections under this patriarchal society.
That's the main point I was arguing.
Basically, that feminists don't want true equality....they want it both ways.
They want to highlight all of the obstacles of living in a patriarchal society without acknowledging the benefits they get from living in that same society.
My apologies @desertrain10 .....looks like you were right all along.
I was wrong.
We are living in a patriarchal society after all.
I finally see the error of my ways.
It would be harder to sell the idea of female oppression if they discussed things that currently benefit them
Exactly.
That's why I can't any of that rhetoric seriously.
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desertrain10
New member
deadeye;7090406 said:Trashboat;7089947 said:
I suppose in that sense we are living in a patriarchal society.
Problem is, most feminists seem to only look at it from the perspective of it being detrimental to women.
While that may be true in some regards, in other areas women actually get several benefits and protections under this patriarchal society.
That's the main point I was arguing.
Basically, that feminists don't want true equality....they want it both ways.
They want to highlight all of the obstacles of living in a patriarchal society without acknowledging the benefits they get from living in that same society.
My apologies @desertrain10 .....looks like you were right all along.
I was wrong.
We are living in a patriarchal society after all.
I finally see the error of my ways.
lol...didn't need you to tell me i'm right, but i'll take it
anyways...
feminist are not a monolith... for instance, sure i don't share the same views as a white feminist and vice verse
with that said, I have no problem with criticizing other feminists or admitting to my own hypocrisy when fit
what you refer to as "benefits" or in other words "female privilege" is referred to as benevolent sexism in most feminist circles
the reason why i and others don't necessarily consider these "benefits" such as systems like chivalry and the policies of institutions like the family court system what often seem advantageous to women at first glance to be very beneficial or a privilege, is because when examined more closely they are born of the lower expectations that are placed upon females from birth... they also reinforce sexist institutions that keep both women and men from true equality, and help to grant men status and power in both the public and private spheres, while simultaneously limiting the power of women to the much smaller domestic sphere...so these "benefits" have little to no value
not to mention female "privileges" are generally given to women by men and can be revoked at any time... and often is, if the woman is not “lady” enough to “deserve” it, or if the woman is BLACK. for example, women are protected from sexually hostile men...unless they don’t “act like a lady” , are "hoes", strippers, etc
the lack of enthusiasm by men, in general to have a piece of that “female privilege” that women supposedly have seems to also support the idea that in most realms these “privileges” have little perceived value or are non existent
i understand black males can't be blamed for the sexism in society since they didn't create it...however when blk men such as yourself continue to downplay sexism it does nothing to strengthen the race and actually hurts future generations who will be raised by blk women
desertrain10;7094802 said:deadeye;7090406 said:Trashboat;7089947 said:
I suppose in that sense we are living in a patriarchal society.
Problem is, most feminists seem to only look at it from the perspective of it being detrimental to women.
While that may be true in some regards, in other areas women actually get several benefits and protections under this patriarchal society.
That's the main point I was arguing.
Basically, that feminists don't want true equality....they want it both ways.
They want to highlight all of the obstacles of living in a patriarchal society without acknowledging the benefits they get from living in that same society.
My apologies @desertrain10 .....looks like you were right all along.
I was wrong.
We are living in a patriarchal society after all.
I finally see the error of my ways.
lol...didn't need you to tell me i'm right, but i'll take it
anyways...
feminist are not a monolith... for instance, sure i don't share the same views as a white feminist and vice verse
with that said, I have no problem with criticizing other feminists or admitting to my own hypocrisy when fit
what you refer to as "benefits" or in other words "female privilege" is referred to as benevolent sexism in most feminist circles
So, feminists have actually created terms to classify people who don't fully agree with their ideology?
Benevolent Sexism?
Based on the definition of benevolent, you seem to be implying that feminists have a problem with laws designed to help them overcome the detriments of living in a patriarchal society.
Seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" mentality.
Are there any feminists who are aware of how this train of thought affects how they're perceived by the general public?
desertrain10
New member
deadeye;7095172 said:desertrain10;7094802 said:deadeye;7090406 said:Trashboat;7089947 said:
I suppose in that sense we are living in a patriarchal society.
Problem is, most feminists seem to only look at it from the perspective of it being detrimental to women.
While that may be true in some regards, in other areas women actually get several benefits and protections under this patriarchal society.
That's the main point I was arguing.
Basically, that feminists don't want true equality....they want it both ways.
They want to highlight all of the obstacles of living in a patriarchal society without acknowledging the benefits they get from living in that same society.
My apologies @desertrain10 .....looks like you were right all along.
I was wrong.
We are living in a patriarchal society after all.
I finally see the error of my ways.
lol...didn't need you to tell me i'm right, but i'll take it
anyways...
feminist are not a monolith... for instance, sure i don't share the same views as a white feminist and vice verse
with that said, I have no problem with criticizing other feminists or admitting to my own hypocrisy when fit
what you refer to as "benefits" or in other words "female privilege" is referred to as benevolent sexism in most feminist circles
So, feminists have actually created terms to classify people who don't fully agree with their ideology?
Benevolent Sexism?
Based on the definition of benevolent, you seem to be implying that feminists have a problem with laws designed to help them overcome the detriments of living in a patriarchal society.
Seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" mentality.
Are there any feminists who are aware of how this train of thought affects how they're perceived by the general public?
benevolent sexism a term that was coined in 1996 by psychologist peter glick is a set of interrelated attitudes toward women that are sexist in terms of viewing women stereotypically and in restricted roles but that are subjectively positive in feeling tone (for the perceiver) and also tend to elicit behaviors typically categorized as prosocial (e.g., helping) or intimacy- seeking (e.g., self-disclosure).
so yes while benevolent sexism may seem to be a positive valuation of women, it actually serves to perpetuate damaging stereotypes... its underpinnings lie in traditional stereotyping and masculine dominance (the man as the provider and woman as his dependent) and its consequences are often damaging
so i ask why would any person feminist or otherwise who truly wanted gender equality endorse benevolent sexist beliefs when they reinforce sexist institutions that keep both women and men from true equality? wouldn't that be hypocritical?
and why would any objective person especially a man have a problem with a woman who doesn't go around expecting to be treated differently all because she is a woman?
besides you can't legislate sexism/patriarchal attitudes away, same as with racism ...its more than obvious considering it's 2014 yet high paying jobs are still male dominated, such as professional and managerial positions, while women as a whole continue to work in lower paying occupations than men do....not to mention a record number of american women are living in poverty
and no a feminist supporting cs and alimony laws, is not a case study in hypocrisy ... these laws are not inherently sexist and the enforcement of these laws have historically favored the party who earn less, the logic being that the greater of two incomes should be preserved and that custody would disrupt that ( big up to kfed and halle berry's first baby daddy)... it just more times than not women tend to make less or are homemakers which is really what people should take issue with
same as with domestic violence laws and how they are enforced...you may not want to believe it but men and women are equally likely to be arrested in such incidents. u.s. department of justice fact sheethttp://www.nij.gov/publications/dv-dual-arrest-222679/ch1/Pages/findings.aspx
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