The Pope admits that sometimes he loses faith.....is this common among Christians or others?

[kingblaze84]

For those who don't know, Mother Theresa, maybe the most famous female "Catholic" of all time, was so disheartened by the lack of action from Jesus that she stopped praying and possibly died an agnostic or atheist. She told her friends prayer was a waste of time and lost faith in Jesus' ability for action before her death. The details are still surprising to me, just read this article a short time ago
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/letters-reveal-mother-teresas-secret/

August 23, 2007

In life, Mother Teresa was an icon — for believers — of God's work on Earth. Her ministry to the poor of Calcutta was a world-renowned symbol of religious compassion. She was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

But now, it has emerged that Mother Teresa was so doubtful of her own faith that she feared being a hypocrite, reports CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips.

In a new book that compiles letters she wrote to friends, superiors and confessors, her doubts are obvious.

Shortly after beginning work in Calcutta's slums, the spirit left Mother Teresa.

"Where is my faith?" she wrote. "Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness... If there be God — please forgive me."

Eight years later, she was still looking to reclaim her lost faith.

"Such deep longing for God… Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal," she said.

"What do I labor for?" she asked in one letter. "If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true."

According to her letters, Mother Teresa died with her doubts. She had even stopped praying, she once said.



--Truly amazing. Mother Theresa admitted to feelings of disgust and feeling no love for Jesus near her death. I can imagine what Pope Francis has written in his private letters somewhere, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pope is a private atheist or agnostic at this point. He sounds a lot like Mother Theresa these days LOL

 

[zzombie]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

I can understand Peter doubting, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. But since Jesus supposedly died and rose from the dead, his disciples should have laid the foundation for Jesus being the "savior". But the foundations the disciples laid out aren't even good enough for the Pope himself! He doubts the foundations of his own faith "often" and doesn't really seem prideful and arrogant.

He actually seems like a mostly humble person, so his faith faltering so publicly is a little shocking to many people worldwide. Peter probably had doubts in his last days too to be fair, but in the year 2017, I would think the foundations of Christianity are pretty concrete. Yet Pope Francis isn't concrete in his own beliefs LOL, WOW. Very interesting.

Unless you know the pope you really cannot say that he isn't prideful also those sins i mentioned are not the only ones that can create doubt ANY SIN CAN CREATE IT. Doubt is experienced by everyone, the apostles are role models their behavior is closer to how Christ acted AND peter was called the rock, if the rock of the church experienced doubt all of us can.

Christians today are susceptible to all the to all the sins the apostles were susceptible to because we are still human and humans have weaknesses. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BIBLE SO THE POPE HAVING DOUBTS is not shocking to anyone who studies it.

 

[zzombie]

The thing about faith in god is that it's not supposed to only rest on feelings because feelings will change back and forth. To me faith has always been a combination of hope,feelings and determination SOMETIMES you will have all 3 sometimes you will only have one.

Worse case scenario you will lose all 3 but even then they often come back.

 

[zzombie]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

The doubt is God telling you something !

The Pope KNOWS people are waking up! we are in the age of aquarius

before was the age of pisces represented by a fish in christianity

people are leaving christianity and the Pope knows this , its all an act! just like a good salesman does,say things that you can relate to ,thats all

if Jesus was really coming back it would be the other way around;people who did not believe would start to believe

wake up! why would the fuckin Pope have doubts ? why would jesus let his biggest representor on earth have doubts ? smh

people are waking up about everything ,bad food,corrupt governments ,not just religion...

one question for all the believers: what if it was all a plan from the devil ? dont you ever think about that ? isnt it possible ? giving us an imposter to worship ? its impossible ? I actually think it would be the perfect plan to deceive God's children,make them believe in a subtle way that we are not God's children and that Jesus is his ONLY son ,do all the fucked up shit you want but if you ACKNOWLEDGE that Jesus is God then you are saved lol sounds pretty evil to me

Word, why would Jesus allow his biggest representative on Earth, the POPE HIMSELF, to have doubts?? LOL If Jesus can't even help the Pope himself remove his own doubts at the age of 80 something, then something is terribly wrong.

Supposedly, Mother Theresa was a huge doubter of her own religion too, and she even wrote a letter to her friends saying she might be an atheist lol smh. If these icons of Christianity doubt their own religion, then I don't even know what to say.

The pope is allowed to have doubts because the pope is human and therefore imperfect HAVE you ever stopped to think that perhaps you have a wrong idea of what god promised to do??? or that you don't know how the rules work

 

[whatevathehell]

the honesty he showing with this, esp in his position, is astounding. I cant imagine trying to live life by a certain creed and doubting that shit...thats like doubting your existence. glad my parents aint force religion on me when I was younger.

 

[Ether44mag]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

The doubt is God telling you something !

The Pope KNOWS people are waking up! we are in the age of aquarius

before was the age of pisces represented by a fish in christianity

people are leaving christianity and the Pope knows this , its all an act! just like a good salesman does,say things that you can relate to ,thats all

if Jesus was really coming back it would be the other way around;people who did not believe would start to believe

wake up! why would the fuckin Pope have doubts ? why would jesus let his biggest representor on earth have doubts ? smh

people are waking up about everything ,bad food,corrupt governments ,not just religion...

That is not necessarily true everyone experiences doubt differently and people are not leaving Christianity in any serious numbers get your facts correct worldwide Christianity is actually growing........... i've been through this same debate many many times already and it's become tiresome. WHEN PEOPLE really begin to leave the religion in serious world-wide percentages it will be one of the signs that the return of Jesus is near A great falling away of faith is part of prophecy as it is now Christianity is actually growing in parts of the world.

Is the pope acting??? i don't believe he is because every christian i know goes through feelings of doubt at some time in their life. IF people understood the religion they would know that their is nothing shocking about a pope or any christian having a bout of doubt for whatever reason

if we are speaking in logical terms, what would seem to be the "moment of clarity" ?:

1. Believing in the story of a human being born out of a virgin ,that is said to be God's only son,who got killed on a cross and asked God "why have you forsaken me" ? when in actuality he was supposed to know that was God's plan all along; be killed so he can resurect and wash away our sins ...

or

2.having doubts about this whole story

and again I must remind you all that : believing in Jesus is not ACTUALLY believing in jesus...believing in jesus is having faith in the people who wrote the story...you guys are vouching for ;Matthew ,Peter ,John etc...jesus did not write a single word in the bible....

lolll I'm so happy I woke up lol I'll say it AGAIN!

when you believe the story of Jesus you are actually vouching for the people who WROTE THE STORY !!! why dont ya'll pray to the disciples instead ? you guys are basing your whole faith on THEIR WORDS ,THEIR VERSION,THEIR FACTS!! lol

who cosigned their story ? how do we know they are not liars ? we cant even totally trust our presidents but yet those guys wrote a book and you believe every word lol

my friend you are throwing in your own thinking into the statement..... did the pope say that he's having doubts about the whole faith??? No. which is why i said everyone experiences doubt differently you don't know the nuances behind how individuals are feeling about their faith at any particular time.

You didn't wake up to anything you simply decided to follow your own reasoning devoid of understanding which is fine if that's your choice but to me you are asleep not awake at all. I read your posts about religion and most of them are based on your own assumptions and not what is actually written in scripture. WHY WOULD we PRAY TO THE DISCIPLES WHEN THEY TOLD US NOT TO??? lol every time you say things like that you enforce the fact that you know very little.

RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH so yes Christians have faith in the gospel and through that faith individuals believe spiritual connections are created with god as the holy spirit indwells in them we are taught the truth from the lie because of the guidance of the holy spirit.

People that are in sects are not allowed to use their brain to think ,so yeah ,I use my own thinking and logic and if shit dont add up I dont follow it ! God gave me a brain to use it, not to follow and automatically believe what someone tells me.

Religion is based on faith but yet you guys act like your shit is facts when you confront people...

And yes I woke up ! not being Awake is believing what people tell you without proof and taking it as LAW without thinking logically.Believing in God is faith ,believing in jesus is being a sheep because you should be able to prove the jesus story but none of yall can.

nobody can PROVE God exists ,you have to feel it inside of you .believing in Jesus is something exterior,something of the world because we talkin about a human being who walked the earth here but people confuse the two (God and Jesus) and act as if believing in Jesus should be about faith too ,its nonsense! jesus supposedly walked the earth and did miracles ,that shit should be PROVEN!

If I tell you some guy from my city was better than michael jordan, I have to prove it ! if I convince you without any proof, you are a sheep,if you go and argue with people and tell them a dude was better than Jordan because I told you so ,you are not far from crazy my friend...

and reading passages of the bible to prove jesus is real is exactly the same thing as you giving my phone number to people who dont believe the story of the guy in my city who was better than Jordan lol thats were the lie comes from!!!

 

[zzombie]

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

 

[Ether44mag]

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

Stop saying that I dont understand when you are the one not understanding something! where you are now, I was there already ! I grew up a christian but I always had doubts but still believed because I was conditionned to since birth but then I WOKE UP to the lie ,you just continue to believe it its not like you UNDERSTAND something that we dont because then you would UNDERSTAND the trickery

ultimate truth has no holes ,its either you know the truth or you dont ! I dont know the truth but I can see a lie ,you claim to know the truth but your truth has holes in it ,how do you cosign a truth that has a bunch of holes in it ?

one question ,just ONE a fuckin simple one what was his date of birth ?

thats the first hole ,it starts at his birth ,shit already got holes hahaha

when a story starts ,the beginning is the most important part

only a lie about the PAST can have question marks about the beginning

you know how children's stories start ? " ONCE UPON A TIME"

you know how a Biography starts ? with the exact date of birth

are you still there ? ok ...

we dont know his date of birth but yet his year of birth separates ancien history and modern history key word here *separates;division

what does that tell you ? i'm trying to wake you up but maybe you wont even register what i'm trying to say and i'm at baby steps level here ,gerber food ... you need to understand the negative effect of the lie to understand why it makes sense that its a lie and the first question to ask is : what could be the cons of believing and praying to a false God ?

now from that question look again at the jesus story and how it unfolds

@zzombie

 

[kingblaze84]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

I can understand Peter doubting, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. But since Jesus supposedly died and rose from the dead, his disciples should have laid the foundation for Jesus being the "savior". But the foundations the disciples laid out aren't even good enough for the Pope himself! He doubts the foundations of his own faith "often" and doesn't really seem prideful and arrogant.

He actually seems like a mostly humble person, so his faith faltering so publicly is a little shocking to many people worldwide. Peter probably had doubts in his last days too to be fair, but in the year 2017, I would think the foundations of Christianity are pretty concrete. Yet Pope Francis isn't concrete in his own beliefs LOL, WOW. Very interesting.

Unless you know the pope you really cannot say that he isn't prideful also those sins i mentioned are not the only ones that can create doubt ANY SIN CAN CREATE IT. Doubt is experienced by everyone, the apostles are role models their behavior is closer to how Christ acted AND peter was called the rock, if the rock of the church experienced doubt all of us can.

Christians today are susceptible to all the to all the sins the apostles were susceptible to because we are still human and humans have weaknesses. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BIBLE SO THE POPE HAVING DOUBTS is not shocking to anyone who studies it.

LOL come on man, Peter and others have laid a 2,000 year foundation for Jesus being the "savior", so the leader of about 500 million Catholics worldwide saying PUBLICLY he OFTEN has doubts is a little strange. I understand if he said SOMETIMES he has doubts, but he has been saying lately it is often. That's stunning, Peter had his doubts for understandable reasons because as I said, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. Him having doubts would be more easily understood. Jesus could not defend himself while the messiah was supposed to conquer his enemies.

I also understand Christians or anyone who believes in a god can have doubts, but even you gotta be surprised at how publicly the Pope is going on about this. He is the leader of a church, so him doubting his own faith is pretty hilarious to me, but more surprising then anything else. Can you at least admit his faith does not sound secure?

 

[kingblaze84]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

The doubt is God telling you something !

The Pope KNOWS people are waking up! we are in the age of aquarius

before was the age of pisces represented by a fish in christianity

people are leaving christianity and the Pope knows this , its all an act! just like a good salesman does,say things that you can relate to ,thats all

if Jesus was really coming back it would be the other way around;people who did not believe would start to believe

wake up! why would the fuckin Pope have doubts ? why would jesus let his biggest representor on earth have doubts ? smh

people are waking up about everything ,bad food,corrupt governments ,not just religion...

one question for all the believers: what if it was all a plan from the devil ? dont you ever think about that ? isnt it possible ? giving us an imposter to worship ? its impossible ? I actually think it would be the perfect plan to deceive God's children,make them believe in a subtle way that we are not God's children and that Jesus is his ONLY son ,do all the fucked up shit you want but if you ACKNOWLEDGE that Jesus is God then you are saved lol sounds pretty evil to me

Word, why would Jesus allow his biggest representative on Earth, the POPE HIMSELF, to have doubts?? LOL If Jesus can't even help the Pope himself remove his own doubts at the age of 80 something, then something is terribly wrong.

Supposedly, Mother Theresa was a huge doubter of her own religion too, and she even wrote a letter to her friends saying she might be an atheist lol smh. If these icons of Christianity doubt their own religion, then I don't even know what to say.

The pope is allowed to have doubts because the pope is human and therefore imperfect HAVE you ever stopped to think that perhaps you have a wrong idea of what god promised to do??? or that you don't know how the rules work

Please understand this is the POPE we are talking about. The fucking POPE! Do you understand what this means? The fabric of Christianity, starting at its own leadership, is starting to show some signs of internal doubt. Europeans have mostly turned away from Christianity and the Middle East definitely has. Yes Christianity is growing in some places but the LEADER of a church saying he often does not believe in what his own religion is saying is nothing less then amazing.

Of course people are allowed to change their mind but the Pope is 80 something years old, he is not confident in his faith anymore. This is pretty surprising to many people, my brother is a Christian and even he is surprised by this. My brother doesn't think Jesus is ever coming back, so maybe he's not a real Christian, not sure.

 

[zzombie]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

I can understand Peter doubting, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. But since Jesus supposedly died and rose from the dead, his disciples should have laid the foundation for Jesus being the "savior". But the foundations the disciples laid out aren't even good enough for the Pope himself! He doubts the foundations of his own faith "often" and doesn't really seem prideful and arrogant.

He actually seems like a mostly humble person, so his faith faltering so publicly is a little shocking to many people worldwide. Peter probably had doubts in his last days too to be fair, but in the year 2017, I would think the foundations of Christianity are pretty concrete. Yet Pope Francis isn't concrete in his own beliefs LOL, WOW. Very interesting.

Unless you know the pope you really cannot say that he isn't prideful also those sins i mentioned are not the only ones that can create doubt ANY SIN CAN CREATE IT. Doubt is experienced by everyone, the apostles are role models their behavior is closer to how Christ acted AND peter was called the rock, if the rock of the church experienced doubt all of us can.

Christians today are susceptible to all the to all the sins the apostles were susceptible to because we are still human and humans have weaknesses. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BIBLE SO THE POPE HAVING DOUBTS is not shocking to anyone who studies it.

LOL come on man, Peter and others have laid a 2,000 year foundation for Jesus being the "savior", so the leader of about 500 million Catholics worldwide saying PUBLICLY he OFTEN has doubts is a little strange. I understand if he said SOMETIMES he has doubts, but he has been saying lately it is often. That's stunning, Peter had his doubts for understandable reasons because as I said, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. Him having doubts would be more easily understood. Jesus could not defend himself while the messiah was supposed to conquer his enemies.

I also understand Christians or anyone who believes in a god can have doubts, but even you gotta be surprised at how publicly the Pope is going on about this. He is the leader of a church, so him doubting his own faith is pretty hilarious to me, but more surprising then anything else. Can you at least admit his faith does not sound secure?

I UNDERSTAND IT'S STRANGE TO YOU..... IT'S JUST NOT STRANGE OR STUNNING TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE RELIGION. peter's doubts are even less understandable becuase he would have been witness to the things jesus did the pope did not witness anything Christ himself did so his doubt make more sense AND JESUS DID NOT JUST SAY HE WAS THE JEWISH MESSIAH HE CLAIMED THAT THROUGH HIM THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD EVENTUALLY BE SAVED.

Basically Christ taught that the jews of his time did not have a proper understanding of those prophecies...... No i cannot admit that his faith isn't secure because i don't know the man and the only thing even remotely shocking about his statement how public he was with it.

 

[kingblaze84]

the honesty he showing with this, esp in his position, is astounding. I cant imagine trying to live life by a certain creed and doubting that shit...thats like doubting your existence. glad my parents aint force religion on me when I was younger.

Yes brotha, his honesty on this subject is truly amazing. I do appreciate the Pope's honesty in this, but I also could not live my life on a doctrine that I often don't even believe is true. Yet the Pope says he chooses to still believe yet also doubts that belief many times as well. The Pope ain't sure what to think anymore and in some ways that's kind of sad.

I wish my mom didn't force Catholic school on me when I was younger but to her credit her main motive was me getting a good education. At least that's what she says. She's far from religious though and my dad has been atheist as far as I've known him.

 

[zzombie]

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

Stop saying that I dont understand when you are the one not understanding something! where you are now, I was there already ! I grew up a christian but I always had doubts but still believed because I was conditionned to since birth but then I WOKE UP to the lie ,you just continue to believe it its not like you UNDERSTAND something that we dont because then you would UNDERSTAND the trickery

ultimate truth has no holes ,its either you know the truth or you dont ! I dont know the truth but I can see a lie ,you claim to know the truth but your truth has holes in it ,how do you cosign a truth that has a bunch of holes in it ?

one question ,just ONE a fuckin simple one what was his date of birth ?

thats the first hole ,it starts at his birth ,shit already got holes hahaha

when a story starts ,the beginning is the most important part

only a lie about the PAST can have question marks about the beginning

you know how children's stories start ? " ONCE UPON A TIME"

you know how a Biography starts ? with the exact date of birth

are you still there ? ok ...

we dont know his date of birth but yet his year of birth separates ancien history and modern history key word here *separates;division

what does that tell you ? i'm trying to wake you up but maybe you wont even register what i'm trying to say and i'm at baby steps level here ,gerber food ... you need to understand the negative effect of the lie to understand why it makes sense that its a lie and the first question to ask is : what could be the cons of believing and praying to a false God ?

now from that question look again at the jesus story and how it unfolds

@zzombie

That's your life and the way you see things if you feel you were conditioned then that's your issue not mine so don't try and label me or anyone else as asleep just because we have had a different experience.

YES I UNDERSTAND THINGS YOU DON'T BECAUSE I HAVE STUDIED THE THEOLOGY and religion MORE IN DEPTH THAN YOU HAVE and i know this to be so because some of the questions you have asked in the past have been very simple to answer or irrelevant spiritually and theologically and if you had studied the scriptures and the theology behind it you wouldn't have asked such elementary or irrelevant questions. THE truth of my GOD HAS NO HOLES IN IT........ YOU SEE HOLES BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT. DO you pick up a math book and look for answers to English questions??? NO. But for some reason you pick up the bible and expect it to contain information that is useless to it's purpose.

 

[kingblaze84]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

I can understand Peter doubting, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. But since Jesus supposedly died and rose from the dead, his disciples should have laid the foundation for Jesus being the "savior". But the foundations the disciples laid out aren't even good enough for the Pope himself! He doubts the foundations of his own faith "often" and doesn't really seem prideful and arrogant.

He actually seems like a mostly humble person, so his faith faltering so publicly is a little shocking to many people worldwide. Peter probably had doubts in his last days too to be fair, but in the year 2017, I would think the foundations of Christianity are pretty concrete. Yet Pope Francis isn't concrete in his own beliefs LOL, WOW. Very interesting.

Unless you know the pope you really cannot say that he isn't prideful also those sins i mentioned are not the only ones that can create doubt ANY SIN CAN CREATE IT. Doubt is experienced by everyone, the apostles are role models their behavior is closer to how Christ acted AND peter was called the rock, if the rock of the church experienced doubt all of us can.

Christians today are susceptible to all the to all the sins the apostles were susceptible to because we are still human and humans have weaknesses. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BIBLE SO THE POPE HAVING DOUBTS is not shocking to anyone who studies it.

LOL come on man, Peter and others have laid a 2,000 year foundation for Jesus being the "savior", so the leader of about 500 million Catholics worldwide saying PUBLICLY he OFTEN has doubts is a little strange. I understand if he said SOMETIMES he has doubts, but he has been saying lately it is often. That's stunning, Peter had his doubts for understandable reasons because as I said, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. Him having doubts would be more easily understood. Jesus could not defend himself while the messiah was supposed to conquer his enemies.

I also understand Christians or anyone who believes in a god can have doubts, but even you gotta be surprised at how publicly the Pope is going on about this. He is the leader of a church, so him doubting his own faith is pretty hilarious to me, but more surprising then anything else. Can you at least admit his faith does not sound secure?

I UNDERSTAND IT'S STRANGE TO YOU..... IT'S JUST NOT STRANGE OR STUNNING TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE RELIGION. peter's doubts are even less understandable becuase he would have been witness to the things jesus did the pope did not witness anything Christ himself did so his doubt make more sense AND JESUS DID NOT JUST SAY HE WAS THE JEWISH MESSIAH HE CLAIMED THAT THROUGH HIM THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD EVENTUALLY BE SAVED.

Basically Christ taught that the jews of his time did not have a proper understanding of those prophecies...... No i cannot admit that his faith isn't secure because i don't know the man and the only thing even remotely shocking about his statement how public he was with it.

Peter having doubts himself says a lot about Christianity but anyway,the Pope is a LEADER of a church with artifacts going back hundreds or thousands of years possibly, with hundreds of books on the "divinity" of Jesus, yet he STILL DOUBTS OFTEN that his religion is even real. At the age of 80 something, being PUBLIC with such doubts is nothing less then stunning. Peter doubted yes but he still believed and wrote books on his belief. The Pope I would assume would read these books and regain his faith again, but no, he OFTEN doubts what he believes lol, I mean, come on.

By the way, I did not say Jesus said he was the Jewish messiah but Jesus claimed to be a Jew, right? He said he would fulfill the PROPHECIES of his time, which in his talk was the prophecies of Judaism. Peter obviously would have been aware of these prophecies, so YES he would have GREAT reason to doubt Jesus was a real messiah. The Pope as a leader should not have these loud and public doubts. Imagine Michael Jordan telling his team in the NBA Finals, "I doubt we're going to win tonight". A leader is supposed to show confidence, not doubt and worse, admitting he often doubts his own beliefs. It's ridiculous.

 

[zzombie]

doubt is extremely common and takes different forms but for most people it's temporary even peter doubted

That's what I always found a little strange about Christianity, people are supposed to believe, but for many, there is no compelling reason to believe. And I think the Pope at times himself feels there is nothing to back up his faith. Obviously he's still a Christian but it's a little funny that even the Pope says he himself doesn't really believe at times. I didn't know doubt among Christians was EXTREMELY common, interesting.

I guess many Christians are getting impatient waiting for Jesus' return......

If the people in the Bible doubted and had crisis of faith what makes you think that people today won't. The people in the Bible are like role models so if they messed up, don't you think we would too.

Most Christians who are pre-occupied with the end times or in the return of Jesus are missing the point.

With the foundation Jesus laid out for his followers, I would have thought that the POPE of all people would not have these kinds of doubts. To be a Pope, I would think that person has years and years of study and dedication to the Bible to believe 100% that his faith is real. Instead, he revealed he still has doubts up until this day.

Pope Francis seems to yearn for his god to be more active, you think he's looking at Jesus the wrong way? Should Christians not expect their god to be active?

The pope is not more faithful than peter and even peter doubted that's in the bible itself.... so you really should not think that the pope in 2017 is more faithful than peter.

peter walked with Jesus and was still weak so this pope is no better. God is active but god being active the way we wish him to is just an example of man's pride and arrogance.... which are sins i expect all men even the pope to suffer from to some degree which could be why his faith faltered in the first place.

I can understand Peter doubting, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. But since Jesus supposedly died and rose from the dead, his disciples should have laid the foundation for Jesus being the "savior". But the foundations the disciples laid out aren't even good enough for the Pope himself! He doubts the foundations of his own faith "often" and doesn't really seem prideful and arrogant.

He actually seems like a mostly humble person, so his faith faltering so publicly is a little shocking to many people worldwide. Peter probably had doubts in his last days too to be fair, but in the year 2017, I would think the foundations of Christianity are pretty concrete. Yet Pope Francis isn't concrete in his own beliefs LOL, WOW. Very interesting.

Unless you know the pope you really cannot say that he isn't prideful also those sins i mentioned are not the only ones that can create doubt ANY SIN CAN CREATE IT. Doubt is experienced by everyone, the apostles are role models their behavior is closer to how Christ acted AND peter was called the rock, if the rock of the church experienced doubt all of us can.

Christians today are susceptible to all the to all the sins the apostles were susceptible to because we are still human and humans have weaknesses. ALL OF THIS IS IN THE BIBLE SO THE POPE HAVING DOUBTS is not shocking to anyone who studies it.

LOL come on man, Peter and others have laid a 2,000 year foundation for Jesus being the "savior", so the leader of about 500 million Catholics worldwide saying PUBLICLY he OFTEN has doubts is a little strange. I understand if he said SOMETIMES he has doubts, but he has been saying lately it is often. That's stunning, Peter had his doubts for understandable reasons because as I said, he knew what the prophecies were for the Jewish messiah. Him having doubts would be more easily understood. Jesus could not defend himself while the messiah was supposed to conquer his enemies.

I also understand Christians or anyone who believes in a god can have doubts, but even you gotta be surprised at how publicly the Pope is going on about this. He is the leader of a church, so him doubting his own faith is pretty hilarious to me, but more surprising then anything else. Can you at least admit his faith does not sound secure?

I UNDERSTAND IT'S STRANGE TO YOU..... IT'S JUST NOT STRANGE OR STUNNING TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE RELIGION. peter's doubts are even less understandable becuase he would have been witness to the things jesus did the pope did not witness anything Christ himself did so his doubt make more sense AND JESUS DID NOT JUST SAY HE WAS THE JEWISH MESSIAH HE CLAIMED THAT THROUGH HIM THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD EVENTUALLY BE SAVED.

Basically Christ taught that the jews of his time did not have a proper understanding of those prophecies...... No i cannot admit that his faith isn't secure because i don't know the man and the only thing even remotely shocking about his statement how public he was with it.

Peter having doubts himself says a lot about Christianity but anyway,the Pope is a LEADER of a church with artifacts going back hundreds or thousands of years possibly, with hundreds of books on the "divinity" of Jesus, yet he STILL DOUBTS OFTEN that his religion is even real. At the age of 80 something, being PUBLIC with such doubts is nothing less then stunning. Peter doubted yes but he still believed and wrote books on his belief. The Pope I would assume would read these books and regain his faith again, but no, he OFTEN doubts what he believes lol, I mean, come on.

By the way, I did not say Jesus said he was the Jewish messiah but Jesus claimed to be a Jew, right? He said he would fulfill the PROPHECIES of his time, which in his talk was the prophecies of Judaism. Peter obviously would have been aware of these prophecies, so YES he would have GREAT reason to doubt Jesus was a real messiah. The Pope as a leader should not have these loud and public doubts. Imagine Michael Jordan ever telling his team in the NBA Finals, "I doubt we're going to win tonight". A leader is supposed to show confidence, not doubt and worse, admitting he often doubts his own beliefs. It's ridiculous.

The pope being the leader of the oldest church does not really matter like i already told you he is still human and has all the weaknesses peter had. if the pope does not match your idea of leadership then that's fine but that's on you and is your limited perspective to millions of Catholics devout and casual he's still their leader even after showing weakness.

According to Christ the people of his time did not understand the prophecies of Judaism AND PETER BEING a follower of Christ would have rejected the normal understanding of the prophecies in favor of jesus. Peter did not have doubt that Christ was the messiah he doubted what that actually was going to mean spiritually and he doubted the power of Jesus but he did not doubt Christ was the messiah

 

[Ether44mag]

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

Stop saying that I dont understand when you are the one not understanding something! where you are now, I was there already ! I grew up a christian but I always had doubts but still believed because I was conditionned to since birth but then I WOKE UP to the lie ,you just continue to believe it its not like you UNDERSTAND something that we dont because then you would UNDERSTAND the trickery

ultimate truth has no holes ,its either you know the truth or you dont ! I dont know the truth but I can see a lie ,you claim to know the truth but your truth has holes in it ,how do you cosign a truth that has a bunch of holes in it ?

one question ,just ONE a fuckin simple one what was his date of birth ?

thats the first hole ,it starts at his birth ,shit already got holes hahaha

when a story starts ,the beginning is the most important part

only a lie about the PAST can have question marks about the beginning

you know how children's stories start ? " ONCE UPON A TIME"

you know how a Biography starts ? with the exact date of birth

are you still there ? ok ...

we dont know his date of birth but yet his year of birth separates ancien history and modern history key word here *separates;division

what does that tell you ? i'm trying to wake you up but maybe you wont even register what i'm trying to say and i'm at baby steps level here ,gerber food ... you need to understand the negative effect of the lie to understand why it makes sense that its a lie and the first question to ask is : what could be the cons of believing and praying to a false God ?

now from that question look again at the jesus story and how it unfolds

@zzombie

That's your life and the way you see things if you feel you were conditioned then that's your issue not mine so don't try and label me or anyone else as asleep just because we have had a different experience.

YES I UNDERSTAND THINGS YOU DON'T BECAUSE I HAVE STUDIED THE THEOLOGY and religion MORE IN DEPTH THAN YOU HAVE and i know this to be so because some of the questions you have asked in the past have been very simple to answer or irrelevant spiritually and theologically and if you had studied the scriptures and the theology behind it you wouldn't have asked such elementary or irrelevant questions. THE truth of my GOD HAS NO HOLES IN IT........ YOU SEE HOLES BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT. DO you pick up a math book and look for answers to English questions??? NO. But for some reason you pick up the bible and expect it to contain information that is useless to it's purpose.

SMH...see you never caught that my simple questions are simple question that christians cant seem to answer ,thats why I ask em . I start withe the basic ones ,from then if the person answers inteligently like you did I ask other questions and when I start seeing the holes coming up I make you try to see them for yourself ! I dont claim to know the bible by heart or anything but I been reading it in parts for the last 20 years... @zzombie

 

[zzombie]

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

@Ether44mag

believe what you want but don't accuse other people of not thinking or using their brain all you do is stereotype religious people i have studied my religion and others VERY DEEPLY I HAVE NOT COME TO THE CONCLUSIONS I HAVE WITHOUT SERIOUS CONTEMPLATION..... and the trash you posted in your last post is only more proof that you don't understand the concepts behind the religion you are bad talking nothing but misconceptions and mischaracterizations.

Stop saying that I dont understand when you are the one not understanding something! where you are now, I was there already ! I grew up a christian but I always had doubts but still believed because I was conditionned to since birth but then I WOKE UP to the lie ,you just continue to believe it its not like you UNDERSTAND something that we dont because then you would UNDERSTAND the trickery

ultimate truth has no holes ,its either you know the truth or you dont ! I dont know the truth but I can see a lie ,you claim to know the truth but your truth has holes in it ,how do you cosign a truth that has a bunch of holes in it ?

one question ,just ONE a fuckin simple one what was his date of birth ?

thats the first hole ,it starts at his birth ,shit already got holes hahaha

when a story starts ,the beginning is the most important part

only a lie about the PAST can have question marks about the beginning

you know how children's stories start ? " ONCE UPON A TIME"

you know how a Biography starts ? with the exact date of birth

are you still there ? ok ...

we dont know his date of birth but yet his year of birth separates ancien history and modern history key word here *separates;division

what does that tell you ? i'm trying to wake you up but maybe you wont even register what i'm trying to say and i'm at baby steps level here ,gerber food ... you need to understand the negative effect of the lie to understand why it makes sense that its a lie and the first question to ask is : what could be the cons of believing and praying to a false God ?

now from that question look again at the jesus story and how it unfolds

@zzombie

That's your life and the way you see things if you feel you were conditioned then that's your issue not mine so don't try and label me or anyone else as asleep just because we have had a different experience.

YES I UNDERSTAND THINGS YOU DON'T BECAUSE I HAVE STUDIED THE THEOLOGY and religion MORE IN DEPTH THAN YOU HAVE and i know this to be so because some of the questions you have asked in the past have been very simple to answer or irrelevant spiritually and theologically and if you had studied the scriptures and the theology behind it you wouldn't have asked such elementary or irrelevant questions. THE truth of my GOD HAS NO HOLES IN IT........ YOU SEE HOLES BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT. DO you pick up a math book and look for answers to English questions??? NO. But for some reason you pick up the bible and expect it to contain information that is useless to it's purpose.

SMH...see you never caught that my simple questions are simple question that christians cant seem to answer ,thats why I ask em . I start withe the basic ones ,from then if the person answers inteligently like you did I ask other questions and when I start seeing the holes coming up I make you try to see them for yourself ! I dont claim to know the bible by heart or anything but I been reading it in parts for the last 20 years...

You read but do you understand what you read??? do you simply take things on face value?? do you know how to put things in theological context?? in scriptural and cultural context???

these are some of the questions you have to reckon with before you even come to answer about anything in scripture

 

[Ether44mag]

[quote="z

[/quote]

The pope being the leader of the oldest church does not really matter like i already told you he is still human and has all the weaknesses peter had. if the pope does not match your idea of leadership then that's fine but that's on you and is your limited perspective to millions of Catholics devout and casual he's still their leader even after showing weakness.

According to Christ the people of his time did not understand the prophecies of Judaism AND PETER BEING a follower of Christ would have rejected the normal understanding of the prophecies in favor of jesus. Peter did not have doubt that Christ was the messiah he doubted what that actually was going to mean spiritually and he doubted the power of Jesus but he did not doubt Christ was the messiah [/quote]



slowly read what you wrote bro...lol you dont get it do you ? what Kingblaze is saying is simple

and the only thing we can basically agree on is that EVERYBODY is doubting this shit hahahah aint nobody safe haha that shit screams "BULLSHIT ALERT" but yet the whole basis of the religion is to have faith in it cause without that its useless ,you go to hell lol

I personally think its the other way around, you go to hell if you believe that crazy confusing full of holes blood drinking ,praying to statues of your leader dying on a cross and eating his "flesh of my flesh" in the ceremonies of a sacrificed human who claimed he was GOD ? AND that legacy is infested with PEDOPHILIA ,shit is all up in them churches ...smh

Nah bro ,I'll pass hahaha I'll pray to The Most High instead ,fuck a middle man, I rather build with the source ! @zzombie

 

[zzombie]

@Ether44mag

To YOU it is bullshit... to me the fact that anyone and everyone experiences doubt only reinforces the religion because the bible teaches that all people can go astray.... The pope is actually proving scripture correct and by the way when you talk about my religion in such a disrespect manner you also reinforce what the scripture teaches about people like you

 

[Ether44mag]

@Ether44mag

To YOU it is bullshit... to me the fact that anyone and everyone experiences doubt only reinforces the religion because the bible teaches that all people can go astray.... The pope is actually proving scripture correct and by the way when you talk about my religion in such a disrespect manner you also reinforce what the scripture teaches about people like you

lol thats the easiest way to trick someone ,tell em bullshit and say that people who will come and try to wake them up are EVIL lol scare tactics once again

here is an easy exemple ,if you are a evil manipulative cheater, what are you going to say to your girlfriend ?? " don't listen to those bitches they are jealous of us and wanna break us up" ... I'm an ex pimp bro, I knew how to kill obstacles in my hoes's mind WAY before those obstacles came...when the obstacles did come , I already installed the defense mechanism in their heads ,its basic manipulation...