So who made the deal with the Devil?

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since God is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.

And if God is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/rape and murder are according to his plan.

This means that God is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask God first before he can do these things, that obviously means that God is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".

Everything you stated is based on faulty assumptions my friend. Your again trying to place the blame on God for the actions of sinful creatures. God is not responsible for the actions His creatures commit. God gave all of His creative intelligences free will. In doing so, God has allowed His creatures to make their own decisions. But with every choice one makes, there are repercussions that follow (either good or bad).

You also have to understand that there is a great drama that is taking place, in which there are 2 opposite forces at work. God in His sovereign will has allowed evil to come into His created universe, because of the free will He gave His creatures, in order that He will FOREVER demonstrate to all of His creation the consequences that naturally come from evil and rebellion. This brief period of time will stand as a ETERNAL witness that there is no good that comes from disobedience, rebellion, and sin. Thus, God is letting this drama unfold so that at the end He will show to every being He ever created that LOVE always wins and that He is the one who was right all along. Hallelujah!

So you can either be enveloped by His everlasting love by accepting His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ or you can continue to reject His love, by denying the Lord Jesus Christ. In your free will you alone will bear the repercussions for whatever path you decide to take. God has set before you life and death, He pleads with you to choose life today. Will you come to Him today?

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Isn't Jesus the "king of kings" or, as DoYou puts it, the "king/ruler of the universe"?

If any of that were true, he'd be the true ruler of all kingdoms.. making him the culprit.

u trying to say Jesus bowed down to Satan? Never saw that nowhere in scripture

He is saying if Man or Satan are the rulers or kings of the planet earth than he is not the complete ruler of the universe. Basically.

but that cant be considering that script about Jesus being given all authority in heaven and on earth...i can't post it right now maybe DoU can quote it

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18

 

[Rock_Well]

If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since God is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.

And if God is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/rape and murder are according to his plan.

This means that God is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask God first before he can do these things, that obviously means that God is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".

I see what u mean, but nah I think the point is that Satan has limits imposed on him by God. God allowed him to take dominion over this world but uses what Satan does to accomplish God will. I dont think that mean God is a micro manager, He doesnt step in every little time we get out of line, but He does when He choose to. Thus Jesus still rules...from heaven

 

[Ajackson17]

Isn't Jesus the "king of kings" or, as DoYou puts it, the "king/ruler of the universe"?

If any of that were true, he'd be the true ruler of all kingdoms.. making him the culprit.

u trying to say Jesus bowed down to Satan? Never saw that nowhere in scripture

He is saying if Man or Satan are the rulers or kings of the planet earth than he is not the complete ruler of the universe. Basically.

Do you even understand what you're saying?

So being Satan is the current ruler of Earth, Jesus can't rule the universe? Did he not prove His power over Satan by overcoming him when He came to Earth?

Have you ever heard of delegation of authority? It's how America is run.

I just clarified his post nothing more, nothing less.

 

[alissowack]

If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since God is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.

And if God is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/rape and murder are according to his plan.

This means that God is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask God first before he can do these things, that obviously means that God is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".

From what I understand...a deal is usually something in which two parties come to some agreement about something knowing in advance the terms associated with it. The "talking snake" episode was not one where Adam or Eve knew exactly what was at stake nor was Satan clear about what he wanted. In the desert episode, Satan made clear what he wanted from Jesus in exchange for what he had to offer.

I don't know if you have ever experienced this but...have you ever done a good deed that...somewhere down the road...produced a bad result? You go help somebody who is in need or something, but in turn it does something that brings more harm than expected. I say this to say...you will never know what the actions of man are truly meant for even through it may be good to do. But, God supposedly knows.

 

[Bodhi]

If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since God is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.

And if God is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/rape and murder are according to his plan.

This means that God is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask God first before he can do these things, that obviously means that God is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".

The Most High is holy and just. With you being a Daoist, I think you should be able to understand that in our carnal world, there has to be a balance of both precieved "good" and "bad". Now, the "bad" that is in the world is due to the original sins committed by Adam and Eve. Every human has to "Suffer" (which i'm sure you are familiar with) because we are the descendants of them. The curses place on man due to sin are genrerational as well due to the original instructions of the Most High. So every human is not "suffering" due to what they individually have done, but also what those who have come before them have.

The Most High allows things to happen to people based on reaped consequences. Any bad that befalls a human is the consequence of him judging actions performed by the individual themself or the foreparents. When he allows satan or demons to negativley impact anyones life, he is not the author of that evil.

There is a difference between the Tao and the Christian God. The Tao is not an omnibenevolent deity. The problem of evil is not applicable to Taoism in the way that it is to Christianity, due to the fact that Christianity supports belief in the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent creator. This creates a lot of difficulties in explaining and understanding how the world works the way it does.

While I understand cause and effect, collectivizing people is not just in the sense of moral law.

If God is the creator of everything, he is the author of evil. Also, being that he is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, anything evil that happens not only doesn't make sense but is part of his doing, theoretically. For instance, if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??

 

[Bodhi]

God allowed him to take dominion over this world but uses what Satan does to accomplish God will.

Why? Why would he have to do that? Why allow evil to accomplish good when you can just directly accomplish good? If you're omnipotent, there is no need for means to an end.

I dont think that mean God is a micro manager, He doesnt step in every little time we get out of line, but He does when He choose to.

Imagine a parent saying, I only step in to protect my child from danger when I feel like it.

 

[Bodhi]

Everything you stated is based on faulty assumptions my friend. Your again trying to place the blame on God for the actions of sinful creatures. God is not responsible for the actions His creatures commit. God gave all of His creative intelligences free will. In doing so, God has allowed His creatures to make their own decisions. But with every choice one makes, there are repercussions that follow (either good or bad).

According to you, we don't have free will. Remember? You said everything that happens is God's will.

You also have to understand that there is a great drama that is taking place, in which there are 2 opposite forces at work. God in His sovereign will has allowed evil to come into His created universe, because of the free will He gave His creatures, in order that He will FOREVER demonstrate to all of His creation the consequences that naturally come from evil and rebellion. This brief period of time will stand as a ETERNAL witness that there is no good that comes from disobedience, rebellion, and sin. Thus, God is letting this drama unfold so that at the end He will show to every being He ever created that LOVE always wins and that He is the one who was right all along. Hallelujah!

Why? If he's all powerful, he could have shown us this without throwing billions of us in hell to suffer eternal torment just to prove a point.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Everything you stated is based on faulty assumptions my friend. Your again trying to place the blame on God for the actions of sinful creatures. God is not responsible for the actions His creatures commit. God gave all of His creative intelligences free will. In doing so, God has allowed His creatures to make their own decisions. But with every choice one makes, there are repercussions that follow (either good or bad).

According to you, we don't have free will. Remember? You said everything that happens is God's will.

You also have to understand that there is a great drama that is taking place, in which there are 2 opposite forces at work. God in His sovereign will has allowed evil to come into His created universe, because of the free will He gave His creatures, in order that He will FOREVER demonstrate to all of His creation the consequences that naturally come from evil and rebellion. This brief period of time will stand as a ETERNAL witness that there is no good that comes from disobedience, rebellion, and sin. Thus, God is letting this drama unfold so that at the end He will show to every being He ever created that LOVE always wins and that He is the one who was right all along. Hallelujah!

Why? If he's all powerful, he could have shown us this without throwing billions of us in hell to suffer eternal torment just to prove a point.

1. I never said that humans didn't have free will. Stop putting words in my mouth.

2. The omniscience of God doesn't intrude on the choices humans make.

3. God demonstrated His great love toward us by sending His Son, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. If you reject the blood of God, how can there be any forgiveness for you?

4. Thus when mankind willingly rejects the blood of Jesus, they have chosen to pay their own sin debt in the eternal fire. God only follows through with the decision they made by executing the punishment that they have chosen.

5. Will you change your eternal destiny today by accepting the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD and SAVIOR?

 

[Arya Tsaddiq]

If thats the case, Adam never REALLY ruled the earth and he never REALLY handed it over to Satan. Their "rule" doesnt really mean anything since God is supposedly the supreme ruler. If everything goes according to his will, their say so or input is really insignificant; actually, they have none at all.

And if God is the supreme ruler and in complete control and he is working things directly down to the minute detail, EVERYTHING that happens including molestation/rape and murder are according to his plan.

This means that God is not omnibenevolent. If Satan does evil things and he has to ask God first before he can do these things, that obviously means that God is allowing him to do evil when he has the option to just say "no, you can't do that. This is my kingdom; my universe.. and I rule here".

The Most High is holy and just. With you being a Daoist, I think you should be able to understand that in our carnal world, there has to be a balance of both precieved "good" and "bad". Now, the "bad" that is in the world is due to the original sins committed by Adam and Eve. Every human has to "Suffer" (which i'm sure you are familiar with) because we are the descendants of them. The curses place on man due to sin are genrerational as well due to the original instructions of the Most High. So every human is not "suffering" due to what they individually have done, but also what those who have come before them have.

The Most High allows things to happen to people based on reaped consequences. Any bad that befalls a human is the consequence of him judging actions performed by the individual themself or the foreparents. When he allows satan or demons to negativley impact anyones life, he is not the author of that evil.

There is a difference between the Tao and the Christian God. The Tao is not an omnibenevolent deity. The problem of evil is not applicable to Taoism in the way that it is to Christianity, due to the fact that Christianity supports belief in the existence of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent creator. This creates a lot of difficulties in explaining and understanding how the world works the way it does.

While I understand cause and effect, collectivizing people is not just in the sense of moral law.

If God is the creator of everything, he is the author of evil. Also, being that he is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, anything evil that happens not only doesn't make sense but is part of his doing, theoretically. For instance, if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??

I get what you are saying now. Because The Most High is the creator of all living creatures with the power to manipulate things at his will, because he chose not to rid the worl of things that we percieve as "evil" he is also reponisble for the bad in the world? If that's what you are saying that is flawed because of the simplicity of the thought process...

The Most High is the "Abba" or orginal Father of man. Just because he created the world that we live in and man himself, you are saying he is responisble for the actions of a free willed creature. This is the equivalent of placing the father of a muderer in jail because his parenting failed to keep the child from growing into a murderer. The Most High operates based on the pricipals of karma per say as i mentioned in a previous post, not based on what should be. The "perfect" world was ruined when satan used his influence to introduce sin into the world and corrupt the Most Highs Creation. The problem for humans is to overcome the sinful nature portrayed by the First Man and woman which was passed down to us. It is unfair for the Most High to be blamed for the actions of the free willed when direct instruction was disobeyed in the "perfect" garden of Eden....

 

[Bodhi]

1. I never said that humans didn't have free will. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You did and I'm not.

2. The omniscience of God doesn't intrude on the choices humans make.

Actually, it does. I'm tired of demonstrating this to you and your friends so I'll just leave it at that.

3. God demonstrated His great love toward us by sending His Son, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. If you reject the blood of God, how can there be any forgiveness for you?

I don't have to be forgiven because I don't believe in sin.

4. Thus when mankind willingly rejects the blood of Jesus, they have chosen to pay their own sin debt in the eternal fire. God only follows through with the decision they made by executing the punishment that they have chosen.

If everything that happens is according to God's will, why does he feel the need to punish me when I'm just going along with what he planned for me??

5. Will you change your eternal destiny today by accepting the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD and SAVIOR?

 

[Bodhi]

I get what you are saying now. Because The Most High is the creator of all living creatures with the power to manipulate things at his will, because he chose not to rid the worl[d] of things that we percieve as "evil" he is also reponisble for the bad in the world?

Yes. If he is omnipotent, he has the power to create any world imaginable. If he is omniscient, he can view the outcome of what he creates even down to every single thought of each individual in that world before he even creates it. God is also supposedly omnibenevolent which would mean he would choose to create a world with the least amount of evil since it goes against his nature to create something evil or something that would bring about evil results. Being that he is omnipotent, he has the power, no doubt, to create a world with 0 percentage of evil.

If you disagree with this ^^^... you're going to have to abandon one of those attributes classically attributed to God. Which one will it be?

1. Omnipotence

2. Omniscience

3. Omnibenevolence

If that's what you are saying that is flawed because of the simplicity of the thought process...

How so? Actually I think it works because it is so simple.

The Most High is the "Abba" or orginal Father of man. Just because he created the world that we live in and man himself, you are saying he is responisble for the actions of a free willed creature.

Yes.. BECAUSE he is omniscient. Meaning, he knew the lives we would live before we lived them and willed that life into existence instead of a different one distinguishable by any small detail. That means the life I live right now is exactly how he wanted it to be. If he is indeed the creator, he is very much responsible for what he created.

This is the equivalent of placing the father of a muderer in jail because his parenting failed to keep the child from growing into a murderer.

Not really because the father is not omniscient. He didn't see the life of his child before the child was conceived. If humans were able to see our childrens' lives before we chose to create our children, we would be responsible for anything that happened that we were previously able to see and keep from happening. That's the difference.

The Most High operates based on the pricipals of karma per say as i mentioned in a previous post, not based on what should be.

"should be" meaning what he wants things to be? If that's the case, the law of karma is above God's will.

The "perfect" world was ruined when satan used his influence to introduce sin into the world and corrupt the Most Highs Creation. The problem for humans is to overcome the sinful nature portrayed by the First Man and woman which was passed down to us. It is unfair for the Most High to be blamed for the actions of the free willed when direct instruction was disobeyed in the "perfect" garden of Eden....

You haven't answered my question:

if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

1. I never said that humans didn't have free will. Stop putting words in my mouth.

You did and I'm not.

2. The omniscience of God doesn't intrude on the choices humans make.

Actually, it does. I'm tired of demonstrating this to you and your friends so I'll just leave it at that.

3. God demonstrated His great love toward us by sending His Son, the LORD JESUS CHRIST, to pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. If you reject the blood of God, how can there be any forgiveness for you?

I don't have to be forgiven because I don't believe in sin.

4. Thus when mankind willingly rejects the blood of Jesus, they have chosen to pay their own sin debt in the eternal fire. God only follows through with the decision they made by executing the punishment that they have chosen.

If everything that happens is according to God's will, why does he feel the need to punish me when I'm just going along with what he planned for me??

5. Will you change your eternal destiny today by accepting the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD and SAVIOR?

Why are you so angry with God my friend? What happened in your past that has gotten you to this point, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Oh and to answer your question, sin must be punished. Thus, if you die in your sins than you alone must bear the punishment for sin, which is eternal death.

But you don't have to go out like that my friend. Jesus Christ came to rescue us from the penalty of sin, by dying in our place. He has provided a way for our sins to be forgiven and His righteousness to be credited to our account. All He asks of us is to believe in Him and in what He did for us. He wants to give you life my friend. He doesn't want to harm you. He loves you my brother. Amen.

 

[Bodhi]

I'm not angry with god. It's difficult to be angry with something you don't believe in. I'm only speaking hypothetically for a argument's sake.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

I'm not angry with god. It's difficult to be angry with something you don't believe in. I'm only speaking hypothetically for a argument's sake.

Deep down you know that God exists my brother, every one does. That is why your "hypothetically" speaking about Him. Amen.

 

[zombie]

god created the world but he is not creating our lives meaning that he is aware of every possible future but he is not directly creating all of them and that is why we are accountable for our own wrongs.

the future does not exist as something that is set in stone that is why when we pray we can change our direction in life. Hezekiah was given an extra 15 years of life if his future was set in stone he would have died.

 

[zombie]

BEING omniscient means you have all knowledge if you apply that power to the future with the understanding that the future is not a singular thing and that it refers to all possible possiblities then you cannot blame god for the future that you actualize.

God is also all good so he does not want to stop you from actualizing the future that you want nor is he going to condem you just because he has the knowledge of which future you might chose. it's only after you choose your future will you be punished.

 

[Arya Tsaddiq]

@Oceanic

I get where you are coming from. But the whole concept of free will is that humans have the choice to make good/bad decisions. The Most High just will manipulate things based on the decisions men make to fall in line with his plan. So, the lives of men are effected directly by the choices that we make, but based upon scripture and the overall objective of the Most High, things work according to his will. So in a sense, he works almost like the men in that Movie "The Adjusters". But people so in fact make their own decisions. He only attempts to influence people down the correct path. If they choose not to obey, that's their perogative.

Oceanic wrote: »

if I know of a man that is working on a bomb for destructive and mallicious reasons and I have the power to stop him but I just walk around, let him do it and he eventually does do it, I'm part of the problem. Am I not??

No...

It seems to me you are comparing apples to oranges. Most events are interconnected and the things should be observed from a macro view. The recourse of certain decisions can be good or bad. The bad brings suffering and the good is the result of righteous living according to scripture. In the case of the bomb, if it explodes and kills people, those murders are on that maker of the bomb who had the free will to do so. The people killed in the bomb were in the vicinity for a reason. But those people were not murdered because of the Most High's unwillingness to intervene. And who is to say certain people who may frequent the area where the bomb exploded were not prevented from being there because of "events" that occured that prevented them?

The consequences of sin ultimately brings death. As the JUDGE of the actions of free willed beings, in this case, the Most High is not liable for the man's actions, but he will manipulate certain events to fulfill his WILL. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Rock_Well]

God allowed him to take dominion over this world but uses what Satan does to accomplish God will.

1. Why? Why would he have to do that? Why allow evil to accomplish good when you can just directly accomplish good? If you're omnipotent, there is no need for means to an end.

I dont think that mean God is a micro manager, He doesnt step in every little time we get out of line, but He does when He choose to.

2. Imagine a parent saying, I only step in to protect my child from danger when I feel like it.

1. Its a few reasons why he allows evil. I can't get too deep in the game with all the reason but if u really think about it, doesn't it make for a better example of how powerful a being is when its one that allow us freedom to make our own choices but still able to get their way in the end?

2. I mean, directly step in. Hr doesn't have to DIRECTLY step in all thr time...He's already watching over us now, you still alive and well aren't you? But I know its the simple things like that we tend to take for granted. Thank God for all the bad things that HAVEN'T happened, like not having an accident while driving and having food on the table... Dont just be thankful for the things he directly stepped in the picture to effect.