Rapper Ranking Project: Rapper #3 - Tupac

[leftcoastkev]

PAC story telling is on a level to where it doesn't even come off as story on first listen. I call that great story telling.

lol What? I'm not sure how not being able to tell that a story is a story is a sign of good storytelling. It seems more like a sign of a weak narrative that can be mistaken for not being a narrative or a listener that isn't savvy enough to pick up on a narrative when he or she hears it.

Nah I get what he saying.

Pac can have a 3 verse song and tell a different story per verse. Case in point, 'I ain't mad at cha'.....It don't even seem like he's story telling at times but he is.

Also I can't think of any other rap where the whole click tell parts of the same story like 'Teardrops and Closed Caskets".


Sometimes he vacillated between storytelling and free styling within the same verse. He starts out telling his own story then changes it up to tell you how he feel about the story (e.g. HellRazor). Then goes back and between the 2.....painting pictures with the stories. Same with Against All Odds starting with the 2nd verse.

 

[StreetRap]

Beta text sorry for your lost when people die. Don't mind that dude.

What?

Ole I feel sorry for u mudda azz nucca .... lol

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Ok man clearly you don't understand what judge jury and executor means.... If the rating decides on what YOU choose to change then YOU are the dictator I can't change the rating if I don't agree with it nobody can but you smh... The NFL commissioner just gave Zeke a 6 game suspension that he and the NFLPA will appeal yes others will make the case to get it reduced but it's 100% up to HIM if he wants to.... Yes others can make a case but it's 100% up to YOU if it gets changed you are the dictator of the ratings so it's never gonna be a totally objective rating which is the problem with this series but you don't seem to understand that so do you bruh ima let you cook smh

I understand what judge, jury, and executioner means. I don't think you understand how board, councils, and other groups do panel discussions and decisions. It is NEVER the case that everyone in a group has the power to change decisions. There is almost always a moderator who is in charge of making the official changes based on what the group comes up with. That's all I'm doing here, or rather all I'm supposed to be doing. Look at the rules that none of you are following. I said that I would just provide the baseline scores. If someone disagreed with a score, they could post an argument, others in the topic could use the reactions to state whether they agreed or disagreed or post counter arguments. And all I would do is look at the group consensus and adjust the scores based on what everyone agreed. That's how the topic is supposed to work. But nobody is doing that. Everyone is coming in here and either making blatantly biased statements, posting their own scores, or making comments that don't really apply to the scoring. Some come in and make arguments for score changes, and no one addresses those arguments or uses the reactions or does anything to push the discussion. So what else am I to do, but make the decision? Even then, in many of the cases, my role has been clerical. Again, with the Jay-Z Delivery change. I didn't make a decision there. I wasn't Judge, Jury, or Executioner. People weighed in and the group consensus was that the score needed to be changed, so I changed it. That's basically what you're saying you want, but you're not acknowledging that its happening.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

PAC story telling is on a level to where it doesn't even come off as story on first listen. I call that great story telling.

lol What? I'm not sure how not being able to tell that a story is a story is a sign of good storytelling. It seems more like a sign of a weak narrative that can be mistaken for not being a narrative or a listener that isn't savvy enough to pick up on a narrative when he or she hears it.

Nah I get what he saying.

Pac can have a 3 verse song and tell a different story per verse. Case in point, 'I ain't mad at cha'.....It don't even seem like he's story telling at times but he is.

Also I can't think of any other rap where the whole click tell parts of the same story like 'Teardrops and Closed Caskets".


Sometimes he vacillated between storytelling and free styling within the same verse. He starts out telling his own story then changes it up to tell you how he feel about the story (e.g. HellRazor). Then goes back and between the 2.....painting pictures with the stories. Same with Against All Odds starting with the 2nd verse.

Aight, I'll go back and listen to the songs you're suggesting and push the score up .5 if need be. The only problem I have with what you're suggesting is that bouncing around in that way is sometimes a cover for not being able to maintain a strong narrative. Stories have beginnings, middles, and ends. Sometimes we see rappers give snippets of stories and then move on. That's not really good storytelling. That's what I think a lot of Pacs stories boil down to, but let me check the songs you're suggesting to verify. Others can weigh in though. If most of you think I need to make a change I'll do it.

 

[Olorun22]

Lyrics-5

Delivery-5

Language-5

Storytelling-5

Catalog-5

Subject matter-5

Creativity-5

Collabo's-5

Impact-5

SMMFH @ niggas giving Pac a 3 for storytelling as if Against All Odds, All Eyez On Me, Hail Mary, Holla At Me, Teardrops & Closed Caskets, Who Do You Believe In, Hellrazor, Troublesome 96, arent amazing songs with full blown stories behind em. Most werent even fiction those were actually what he was goin thru.

Co fuckin sign...how the fuck is Pac a 3 in storytelling... mind boggling

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Ok, so here is Troublesome 96.


It was named as an example of his Storytelling. It's a great song, but it's not a good story track. There is a somewhat loose narrative in it, but it's not a clear story. Here are the lyrics.

Compare this song to Somebody's Got to Die. That's a story about revenge just as this seems to be. Biggie walked you through a clear narrative from the beginning (him being informed that a friend was killed) through the middle (him making preparations to get revenge) to the end (him finding and killing the person that committed the offense). It was told masterfully and everything was covered.

Now look at this "story." Whats the beginning, middle, and end? Do all the thoughts and elements of the story flow together clearly. Hell just look at the beginning. In the second stanza, he starts it off with "So revenge, I swore..." Revenge for what? Nothing in the first verse implies that anything in particular happened to him that needed avenging. Read the rest of the stanza. He just said he swore revenge, but the rest of the stanza has nothing to do with that. It's just him puffing himself up as a boss. Look at the fourth stanza. He talks about being shot and the enemy being terrified. So for the first time, he identfies the target, but the rest of that stanza is padding. It doesn't advance a narrative at all. You could probably tell this story in 8 lines because it's that simple. This doesn't even compare to most great stories in rap.

Troublesome,

Nineteen muthaf***in' 96'

West side, let it be known, n****

Boss of all bosses, Makaveli

Menacin' methods label me a lethal weapon

Making n****s die, witnessin' breathless imperfections

Can you picture my specific plan to be the man in this wicked land

Under handed hits are planned, scams are plotted over grams of rock

Undercover agents die by the random shots, we all die in the end

So revenge, I swore, I was all about my ends, f*** friends and foes

Me, a born leader, never leave the block without my, my heata

Got me a dog, named him Mobb B**** N**** Eata

What could they do to me that little brat? S*** them, n****s

That shot me and still terrified I'll get their a**, how can I show you

How I feel inside? We outlawz motherf***as, can't kill my pride

N****s, talk a lot of s*** but that's after I'm gone 'cause they fear me

In physical form, let it be known, I'm troublesome

All ya n****s die, put it down to the fullest

Spittin' rhymes and bullets, troublesome, I know what time it is

Call the punk police please, they can't stop us n****s run the streets

Troublesome, gutter ways my mentality is ghetto

We're guerrillas in this criminal war, we all rebels

Death before dishonor bet on bomb on them first n****s

We came for murder, pullin' up in a hearse

Westside was the war cry bustin' all freely screaming f***

All y'all n****s in Swahili, pistol packin' fresh out of jail

I ain't goin' back, release me to care of my heartless strap

Say my name three times like candy man, bet I roll on your a**

Like an avalanche, a soul survivor, learned to get high

And pull drive bys, murder my foes, can't control my nine

Hearin' thoughts of my enemies pleadin' please

Busta a** motherf***as tried to flee, picture me lettin'

This chump survive, redin' up on his a** when I'm doped

He die, 'cause I'm troublesome

All ya n****s, die young, strapped and I don't give a f***

I'm hopeless, I live a thug life loosin' my focus, baby

I'm troublesome, bad boy killa, there is no one realla

What you saw was the rough, rugged and raw, outlaw

Murder, murder my mind states s*** ain't change

Since my last rhyme, the crime rate ain't decline

N****s bustin' shots like they lost their mind

Like twenty-five to life never crossed their mind

Tell me young n**** never learned a thang

Dead at thirteen 'cause he yearned to bang

Sent a lot of flowers but how can I cry

Tried to warn the little n****, either stop or die

Mercy is for the weak when I speak, I scream

Afraid to sleep I'm havin' crazy dreams

Vivid pictures of my enemies and family times

God to forgive me 'cause it's wrong but I plan to die

You can take me to heaven and understand I was a G

Did the best I could, raised in insanity or send me to hell

'Cause I ain't beggin' for my life, ain't nothing worse

Than this cursed a** hopeless life, I'm troublesome

All ya n****s die in your wildest dreams

You couldn't picture a n**** like me, I'm troublesome

 

[Shizlansky]

BIG wish he had the talent Pac had

 

[KamPushMe]

BIG wish he had the talent Pac had

???? Shut up nigga

 

[Lefty_]

BIG wish he had the talent Pac had

Sacrilege. Both transcendent talents, but in different attributes. Big can't convey Pacs emotion and penchant for distilling real world issues, and PAC couldn't match bigs lyrical wizardry and wittiness.

Both equally talented on two different ends of the spectrum. Saying one is that far departed from the other is Stan shit.

 

[AZTG]

Great thread series, terrible execution. It really should be take everyones score and average it out. Minus the all 5 crowd and shit.

 

[5 Grand]

BIG wish he had the talent Pac had

Other way around.

Big could rap circles around Pac while eating potato chips and drinking a soda.

 

[genocidecutter]

This is the reasons man crush

 

[mosincredible]

Ok, so here is Troublesome 96.


It was named as an example of his Storytelling. It's a great song, but it's not a good story track. There is a somewhat loose narrative in it, but it's not a clear story. Here are the lyrics.

Compare this song to Somebody's Got to Die. That's a story about revenge just as this seems to be. Biggie walked you through a clear narrative from the beginning (him being informed that a friend was killed) through the middle (him making preparations to get revenge) to the end (him finding and killing the person that committed the offense). It was told masterfully and everything was covered.

Now look at this "story." Whats the beginning, middle, and end? Do all the thoughts and elements of the story flow together clearly. Hell just look at the beginning. In the second stanza, he starts it off with "So revenge, I swore..." Revenge for what? Nothing in the first verse implies that anything in particular happened to him that needed avenging. Read the rest of the stanza. He just said he swore revenge, but the rest of the stanza has nothing to do with that. It's just him puffing himself up as a boss. Look at the fourth stanza. He talks about being shot and the enemy being terrified. So for the first time, he identfies the target, but the rest of that stanza is padding. It doesn't advance a narrative at all. You could probably tell this story in 8 lines because it's that simple. This doesn't even compare to most great stories in rap.

Troublesome,

Nineteen muthaf***in' 96'

West side, let it be known, n****

Boss of all bosses, Makaveli

Menacin' methods label me a lethal weapon

Making n****s die, witnessin' breathless imperfections

Can you picture my specific plan to be the man in this wicked land

Under handed hits are planned, scams are plotted over grams of rock

Undercover agents die by the random shots, we all die in the end

So revenge, I swore, I was all about my ends, f*** friends and foes

Me, a born leader, never leave the block without my, my heata

Got me a dog, named him Mobb B**** N**** Eata

What could they do to me that little brat? S*** them, n****s

That shot me and still terrified I'll get their a**, how can I show you

How I feel inside? We outlawz motherf***as, can't kill my pride

N****s, talk a lot of s*** but that's after I'm gone 'cause they fear me

In physical form, let it be known, I'm troublesome

All ya n****s die, put it down to the fullest

Spittin' rhymes and bullets, troublesome, I know what time it is

Call the punk police please, they can't stop us n****s run the streets

Troublesome, gutter ways my mentality is ghetto

We're guerrillas in this criminal war, we all rebels

Death before dishonor bet on bomb on them first n****s

We came for murder, pullin' up in a hearse

Westside was the war cry bustin' all freely screaming f***

All y'all n****s in Swahili, pistol packin' fresh out of jail

I ain't goin' back, release me to care of my heartless strap

Say my name three times like candy man, bet I roll on your a**

Like an avalanche, a soul survivor, learned to get high

And pull drive bys, murder my foes, can't control my nine

Hearin' thoughts of my enemies pleadin' please

Busta a** motherf***as tried to flee, picture me lettin'

This chump survive, redin' up on his a** when I'm doped

He die, 'cause I'm troublesome

All ya n****s, die young, strapped and I don't give a f***

I'm hopeless, I live a thug life loosin' my focus, baby

I'm troublesome, bad boy killa, there is no one realla

What you saw was the rough, rugged and raw, outlaw

Murder, murder my mind states s*** ain't change

Since my last rhyme, the crime rate ain't decline

N****s bustin' shots like they lost their mind

Like twenty-five to life never crossed their mind

Tell me young n**** never learned a thang

Dead at thirteen 'cause he yearned to bang

Sent a lot of flowers but how can I cry

Tried to warn the little n****, either stop or die

Mercy is for the weak when I speak, I scream

Afraid to sleep I'm havin' crazy dreams

Vivid pictures of my enemies and family times

God to forgive me 'cause it's wrong but I plan to die

You can take me to heaven and understand I was a G

Did the best I could, raised in insanity or send me to hell

'Cause I ain't beggin' for my life, ain't nothing worse

Than this cursed a** hopeless life, I'm troublesome

All ya n****s die in your wildest dreams

You couldn't picture a n**** like me, I'm troublesome

I agree with your story telling rating. Big, Nas, Raekwon, Ghostface and even Eminem have all done a much better job at telling detailed stories.

 

[Shizlansky]

BIG wish he had the talent Pac had

Other way around.

Big could rap circles around Pac while eating potato chips and drinking a soda.

Rap is so much more than witty lyrics.

Pac had everything when it comes to rap

 

[yung$]

Lyrics should be 4 and story telling 5 or at least 4.5

 

[mosincredible]

@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.

 

[CeLLaR-DooR]

Lyrics-3

Delivery-3

Language-3

Storytelling-3

Catalog-3.5

Subject matter-5

Creativity-4

Collabo's-3

Impact-5

 

[mosincredible]

@Sion Got an issue with objectivity. If Pac is not the best at storytelling, he can not be 5. That's what this series is about. He has no stories as detailed or clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power in his whole catalog. That's an automatic no 5. You can find other rappers who tell more detailed stories than Pac that aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power, so they would fall in the 4.0-4.5 range. 3.5 isn't an outlandish score by any means.

Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.

And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.

Shit like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone fucks dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the bullshit out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. Negro Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.

Scarface's stories aren't as clever as Rewind or I Gave You Power. They're just very good. I wouldn't give him the 5 either. If you start handing out 5s with "his own capacity" attached to it, you could start making arguments for a lot of 5s.

And you talking about the wrong one when you mentioning objectivity because I actually agree with a lot of your rant paragraph. The IC act like because Drake had someone write some of his worst music that he never was a good writer at all. All of his best verses are his "[*] o'clock in [location]" series and those are definitely all penned by him. I agree J Cole isn't great, FHD was his best album but still not as good as any of Kendrick's. And the south doesn't get enough credit.

You can make a legitimate argument for Pac to be a 4 or a 4.5 storyteller but not a 5 because the cleverness of a story counts. I understand there's a lot of posters in the Reason that denounce cleverness or witty bars saying it doesn't matter. If your story is concise, detailed and clever all at once, you are the better storyteller. Subject matter of what you're actually saying is a different category.

 

[IceBergTaylor]

One time I seen niggas in The Reason say Lupe Fiasco was better than Pac SMMFH. Like WTF SMMFH.

No you didnt.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Him receiving a 5 doesn't make him the best it just means he's exhibited an excellent rating from his own capacity. By your logic, Scarface is the greatest storyteller period over NaS, Big Boi and a dozen others and therefore no one can be a 5 if they're not better than Scarface even if they are. Nor can they match him.

And yes Pac does have stories as deep you can't be this foolish - Against All Odds is based on actual events that's so deep it's intertwined forever with "who killed 2Pac" theories and more. That song helped carry an entire theory that Pac would rise from the dead to get revenge on his enemies. As did Hail Mary and countless others. Pac's songs were connected. 3.5 is outlandish AF imo because it's undermining the impact those songs had on real life circumstances and the legend of Tupac.

Shit like this is why I hate the Reason sometimes. On the IC though shall not go against the "Nation of NaSlam", Lupe Fiasco is second the greatest rapper of all time, we cannot say Drake has ANY hit songs, everyone fucks dimes and lives in Trump tower with an orange juice maker ice cooler installed on the TV, J.Cole has 8 classics and southern Hip-hop is to be denounced SMMFH. FOH fam, let's keep it honest and keep the bullshit out.... You can give Pac lower ratings in other places but storytelling isn't one of them. Being objective, how he can be a 4 lyrically but a 3 for storytelling is mad disrespeckful SMMFH. Brenda's Got A Baby almost got black listed from radio, Baby Don't Cry, Keep Ya Head Up, Troublesome 96, Teardrops and Closed Caskets, Shorty Wanna Be A Thug, My Block, Mama's Just A Little Girl, All Eyez On Me, Letter To My Unborn Child, Better Dayz, Life Goes On. Negro Tupac was writing stories about him still living having us thinking he was still alive for 7 straight years SMMFH.

Maybe this is the first you've seen, but I've already explained what the scores me. A 5 means that Pac would be among the very best storytellers ever. He isn't. And your comments show you don't even understand the categories. I already explained this. The Lyrics category is about rapper's ability to develop a message or idea or speak on a concept through his or her raps and convey it clearly. The Storytelling category is about a rappers ability to create a coherent narrative and deliver it through rap. It also takes into account the rapper's body of work for stories, the creativity of the stories, the range of subject matter addressed in the stories, and other things. You can be a strong lyricist but not tell a lot of stories or not cover many areas with your stories or not be creative with your stories. That's how you get a 5 in Lyrics but a 3 in Storytelling.

The key with the Storytelling category is the narrative though. Half the songs you name have little to no narrative in them. Let's look at another one of your examples: Keep Ya Head Up

[Verse 1]

Some say the blacker the berry, the sweeter the juice

I say the darker the flesh, then the deeper the roots

I give a holla to my sisters on welfare

2Pac cares if don't nobody else care

And I know they like to beat you down a lot

When you come around the block, brothers clown a lot

But please don't cry, dry your eyes, never let up

Forgive, but don't forget, girl, keep ya head up

And when he tells you you ain't nothin', don't believe him

And if he can't learn to love you, you should leave him

‘Cause, sister, you don't need him

And I ain't tryin' to gas you up, I just call 'em how I see 'em

You know what makes me unhappy?

When brothers make babies

And leave a young mother to be a pappy

And since we all came from a woman

Got our name from a woman and our game from a woman

I wonder why we take from our women

Why we rape our women — do we hate our women?

I think it's time to kill for our women

Time to heal our women, be real to our women

And if we don't we'll have a race of babies

That will hate the ladies that make the babies

And since a man can't make one

He has no right to tell a woman when and where to create one

So will the real men get up?

I know you're fed up, ladies, but keep ya head up

[Verse 2]

Ayo, I remember Marvin Gaye used to sing to me

He had me feelin' like black was the thing to be

And suddenly the ghetto didn't seem so tough

And though we had it rough, we always had enough

I huffed and puffed about my curfew and broke the rules

Ran with a local crew and had a smoke or two

And I realize Mama really paid the price

She nearly gave her life to raise me right

And all I had to give her was my pipe dream

Of how I'd rock the mic and make it to the bright screen

I'm tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents

It's hard to be legit and still pay the rent

And in the end it seems I'm headin' for the pen

I try to find my friends, but they're blowin' in the wind

Last night my buddy lost his whole family

It's gonna take the man in me to conquer this insanity

It seems the rain'll never let up

I try to keep my head up and still keep from gettin' wet up

You know, it's funny, when it rains it pours

They got money for wars but can't feed the poor

Say there ain't no hope for the youth

And the truth is it ain't no hope for the future

And then they wonder why we crazy

I blame my mother for turnin' my brother into a crack baby

We ain't meant to survive, ‘cause it's a set-up

And even though you're fed up, huh, you got to keep ya head up

[Verse 3]

And uh, to all the ladies havin' babies on they own

I know it's kinda rough and you're feelin' all alone

Daddy's long gone and he left you by your lonesome

Thank the Lord for my kids even if nobody else want 'em

‘Cause I think we can make it; in fact, I'm sure

And if you fall, stand tall and come back for more

‘Cause ain't nothin' worse than when your son

Wants to know why his daddy don't love him no mo'

You can't complain you was dealt this

Hell of a hand without a man, feelin' helpless

Because there's too many things for you to deal with

Dyin' inside, but outside you're lookin' fearless

While tears is rollin' down your cheeks

You steady hopin' things don't fall down this week

‘Cause if it did, you couldn't take it

And don't blame me — I was given this world, I didn't make it

And now my son's gettin' older and older

And colder from havin' the world on his shoulders

While the rich kids is drivin' Benz

I'm still tryin' to hold on to survivin' friends

And it's crazy, it seems it'll never let up

But please, you got to keep ya head up

What's the story? Summarize the narrative for us since you think this is a great story. You're going to have a hard time doing that because this isn't a story. It's more like an inspirational speech delivered through lyrics and it's superb. That's why I gave him a 5 in lyrics. But there is three verses here and not even one of these verses is dedicated to delivering a clear narrative. The closest he comes is when he tells about his early life and his mother's struggles, but again, the purpose of that is not to deliver a story, it's to inspire people not to give up. You seem to be mixing up telling a story with lacing a message with storytelling elements to better deliver a point.

I'm not against giving him a higher score, but your reasoning seems extremely biased and you are really stretching things in order for him to be pushed. I'd ask you what you think was a fair score for him, but you gave him a 5 in everything, so clearly you're not being objective.