Questions and Statements about God...

[Hyde Parke]

Ok one more time ... different angle.

If I hold the following thoughts in my head what do you call them?

God exist. (Belief)

I am Napoleon. (Delusion but still a belief)

I bought a Double Gulp. (XXXXXX?)

It can not be a fact because facts exist outside my head.

i wouldnt call them any more than thoughts, as long as they are in your head.

Also, by your above logic, it seems you are proving that there is no difference in beliefs, as i stated earlier. And if you think a fact cannot exist inside of your head, you are really proving there is no difference in beliefs.
So what makes the person who believes in God any less delusional than the person who believes he bought a Double Gulp? Explain he difference. Because, now it looks like you have been debating with the threadstarter
about something other than the disbelief in God.

**my apologies in advance, if i totally misunderstood you*** I your reply read it several times to b sure, b4 i commented.

 

[whar67]

It would also be a memory.

Memory and Experience .. wonderful

Experience - direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge b : the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation

Direct observation though is not something in my head. And we are back to that pesky knowledge thing.

Memory - This is better - the power or process of reproducing or recalling what has been learned and retained especially through associative mechanisms

Unfortuantely my memory is not 'I bought a Double Gulp' instead it is a whole lot more detailed than that.

Lets try the transition from a belief to a 'experience'/'memory'

Say a theist is sitting in his room think 'God exists'

At that moment God walks into the room and say 'Howdy' then walks out.

What happens to our theist's thought 'God exists'

Does it turn into an 'experience' ... did it somehow become 'memory'?

Do you belief the theist no longer believes 'God exists'?

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Memory and Experience .. wonderful

Experience - direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge b : the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation

Direct observation though is not something in my head. And we are back to that pesky knowledge thing.

Memory - This is better - the power or process of reproducing or recalling what has been learned and retained especially through associative mechanisms

Unfortuantely my memory is not 'I bought a Double Gulp' instead it is a whole lot more detailed than that.

Lets try the transition from a belief to a 'experience'/'memory'

Say a theist is sitting in his room think 'God exists'

At that moment God walks into the room and say 'Howdy' then walks out.

What happens to our theist's thought 'God exists'

Does it turn into an 'experience' ... did it somehow become 'memory'?

Do you belief the theist no longer believes 'God exists'?

Experience ALSO means, "4 : something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through", Use the right CONTEXT. The direct experience with god would turn a belief into a experience, the person would no longer have to believe god exists(proposition/premise), because it actually happened(fact/reality). Just like the slurpie.

I am dumb founded I am having this debate with you, especially after reading your last post and seeing the grammer errors, which leaves me inclined to think english is not your first language.

 

[whar67]

Experience ALSO means, "4 : something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through", Use the right CONTEXT. The direct experience with god would turn a belief into a experience, the person would no longer have to believe god exists(proposition/premise), because it actually happened(fact/reality). Just like the slurpie.

I am dumb founded I am having this debate with you, especially after reading your last post and seeing the grammer errors, which leaves me inclined to think english is not your first language.

I am equally dumb-founded as the use of belief and knowledge is inline with my arguements and has been that way for centuries of philosophy.

The part you seem hung up on is a belief must contain some element of uncertainty. This is patently false.

There is a field of philosophical study called Epistemology. It deals with the definition of Knowledge. The reason I keep coming back to this is the belief 'God exists' once justified by God walking into the room the belief becomes knowledge.

In the previous example the theist starts by saying 'God exists'. Then meets God. Now he has knowledge of God existences. He still belioeves God exists but now it is knowledge.

Lets examine a conversation this theist has with his friend if your definition and logical model were true.

Theist : Hey, I met God yesterday!

Friend : You're crazy!

Theist : No really he walked into my apartment and said 'Howdy'

Friend : So I guess you believe in God then?

Theist : No

While you do not seem to want to discuss it but you need to come to grips with what knowledge is. In this case the theist knows God exists. The difference is knowledge are beliefs that are 'true'. (The definition of that is a whole other philosophical debate.)

Finally even using your #4 defintion an experience is a past event which does not exist in the mind like a belief. You have memories of your experiences. From these memories and experiences you can learn. Learning is the gaining of knowledge. Knowledge is a belief that is true.

 

[blue falcon]

1. I would imagine Hitler thought he was right. You make an odd transition fom thought he was right to was right. You eliminate the thought but I do not see the difference. Even if God thinks what Hitler did was wrong it is still a thought. Right and wrong are judgements we make about events and such. These judgements do not have substance and only exist as thought. You claim to know the truth of God's desires regarding right and wrong yet I really only have your word and my judgement to guide me to an answer. It is trivial to find alternate criteria of right and wrong within the various christian denominations. How can their be an absolute right or wrong when there is absolutely no agreement on it?

1.a 2+2=4 2+2=10 ... There exists a long proof that 1+1 =2 or 2+2=4 this does move it into an objective realm. Also both statements are true though given the correct circumstances. 2+2=4 for all statements using base 5 or higher, 2+2=10 for base 4 notation. Neither statement is true in binary or trinary notation.

2. The 9/11 hijackers were driven by their belief their acts were holy as misguided as that was. This morning when I woke up I brushed my teeth. I did not do this because I am atheist I did it because I wanted to clean my teeth. Stalin did not kill people due to an absense of belief in God. He did so due to percieved political gain.

3. Special pleading as I use is to state I deserve special privledge or status just for be me. I can not make this claim as I am a person like billions of others with similars wants and desires. Since I can not logically create an arguement where I deserve special status to use an arguement where it is only true if I claim a special status fails.

3.a Uniformity in nature. Gravity and Light were the two items mentioned. Einstein and Newton have shown this. I will not poorly regurgitate their works here however their uniformity has been confirmed. Other confirmed uniformity are sub atomic particles, that is the particles that make up our world are the same as those making up a world on the other side of the universe. You may reearch the Standard Model for this piece. If you chose not to educate yourself on these issues that is your choice but do not seem surprised when people realize your words and ideas do not intersect with reality.

4. There is no objective standard. Why is your interpretation the 'truth' and others 'false'.

5. Back to objective moral weakness. Doesn't this mean if God shared with you that you were required to fight and kill in his name you would be morally bound do so? If he asked you to kill your own children?

1. But according to your logic even if there was a consensus on absolute truth it would only still be a thought. However for something to be absolute it must exist outside of peoples thoughts. Back to the holocaust the german government and people thought it was ok to kill and persecute jews. Did it automatically become right since it was agreed that it was or has it and was it wrong because it intrinsically WAS wrong. And you are simply proving my point that atheist cannot believe in right and wrong because any judgment thereof would simply be an subjective opinion with no real basis. A vein deception.

2. That maybe true if that is what we were talking about but I think you understand the question at hand.

3. Regardless of the motives that drove Stalin he still was an atheist and still killed millions of people. Simply because the 9/11 hijackers were religious zealots you cannot paint all religious people or even all religious ideologies with the same broad brush. Would a white girl who got raped by black guys be justified in hating all blacks because of what happened to her? NO.

4. No, in your world view you are just another animal. So what makes you as a human any better than say a baboon. Why would u more willingly eat the flesh of a cow than says a human. And according to whos logic? Yours well thats all fine and dandy but what exactly makes your logic better than the billions of others on the earth?

5. Again is this something that was worked out on paper or something that has been actually observed. Newton nor Einstien could have ever witnessed every time light moved in the past, present or future.

6. Because I have the proper precondition which is God. And atleast there is one consistent atheist on here.

7. If God did yes but the question is would he and the answer is no.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

I am equally dumb-founded as the use of belief and knowledge is inline with my arguements and has been that way for centuries of philosophy.

The part you seem hung up on is a belief must contain some element of uncertainty. This is patently false.

There is a field of philosophical study called Epistemology. It deals with the definition of Knowledge. The reason I keep coming back to this is the belief 'God exists' once justified by God walking into the room the belief becomes knowledge.

In the previous example the theist starts by saying 'God exists'. Then meets God. Now he has knowledge of God existences. He still belioeves God exists but now it is knowledge.

Lets examine a conversation this theist has with his friend if your definition and logical model were true.

Theist : Hey, I met God yesterday!
Friend : You're crazy!
Theist : No really he walked into my apartment and said 'Howdy'
Friend : So I guess you believe in God then?
Theist : No

While you do not seem to want to discuss it but you need to come to grips with what knowledge is. In this case the theist knows God exists. The difference is knowledge are beliefs that are 'true'. (The definition of that is a whole other philosophical debate.)

Finally even using your #4 defintion an experience is a past event which does not exist in the mind like a belief. You have memories of your experiences. From these memories and experiences you can learn. Learning is the gaining of knowledge. Knowledge is a belief that is true.

It does include some element of uncertainty or it wouldn't be a belief. You appear to be hung up on that that is patently false.

1. Mental acceptance of a claim as truth.
2. (countable) Something believed.

The ancient people have a belief in many deities.

3. (uncountable) The quality or state of believing.

My belief that it will rain tomorrow is strong.

4. (uncountable) Religious faith.

She often said it was her belief that carried her through the hard times.

5. (in plural) One's religious or moral convictions.

I can't do that. It's against my beliefs.

In every definition I look at, nowhere does it say that belief has a definition of definity. That defeats the entire purpose of 'belief' in the first place. That is the whole concept of belief. People can believe in their beliefs with certaintly in the sense they do not doubt what they believe. But that does not mean that which they believe to be true is definitively true.

And the theist, if he were intelligent enough, would have replied, "I always believed in god and believed god existed, now I know god does.". The reason the friend would ask, "So I guess now you believe in god then?" is because the friend is on the otherside of not even having a belief in god. If the friend asked, "So I guess now you know god exists?" would imply the friend also had a pre-existing belief in god.

Some of the best philosophers are still debating what constitutes 'knowledge'. So for you to tell me I have not come to grips with what knowledge is preposterous. Unless you are trying to tell me you have out thought the best?

A theist does not KNOW god exists, they believe god exists.

If knowledge is a belief that is true, then it is no longer a belief, but knowledge(whatever knowledge may be). A belief is only a belief when its truth or falsity cannot be proven, but is accepted as true.

 

[whar67]

In any definition from a dictionary or philosophy can you include one that states uncertainy as a component of belief.

Merriam Webster Belief

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Free Online Dictionaty

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.

2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.

3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

Collins English

1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc., accepted as true

2. opinion; conviction

 

[whar67]

Also please post any published philosopher that removes 'belief' from what makes up knowledge. They argued you must go further than 'justified true beliefs' but I am unaware of any that argue someone believing it is not a piece of what makes up knowledge.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

In any definition from a dictionary or philosophy can you include one that states uncertainy as a component of belief.

Merriam Webster Belief

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Free Online Dictionaty

1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.

2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.

3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

Collins English

1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc., accepted as true

2. opinion; conviction

 

[whar67]

If you can't see for yourself within those definitions that no element of certainty is given, that is your lack of understanding.

I never said any philospher removes belief from knowledge, I said they don't even agree what constitutes 'knowledge'.

Carry on with your belief about belief that you believe is true.

You are argueing that uncertainty is a requirement of belief. Nothing in the wiki pages posted or dictionary defintion remotely supports your position.

 

[VIBE]

http://www.albertmohler.com/2010/01/14/does-god-hate-haiti/

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

You are argueing that uncertainty is a requirement of belief. Nothing in the wiki pages posted or dictionary defintion remotely supports your position.

Beliefs are things believed that are unproven true. That is what the dicitonaries say. And yes, I infer from that, that beliefs inherently have elements of uncertainty, in the sense it could be true, or it could not. It is uncertain if the belief is true or it is not, but it is believed to be true. People may be have total conviction that the belief is true, but the belief itself, it unproven to be true.

 

[alissowack]

God hates sin. Believers are as much subjected to the tragedies of the world as well as a non-believer. Though I don't know for sure, I like to believe that even believers died there in Haiti as well. We all are at His Mercy regardless.

 

[blue falcon]

Does God hate Haiti? In the sense that Haiti is actively engaged in abominable witchcraft yes. God does hate that kind of wickedness and has destroyed many civilizations for it.

 

[Swiffness!]

All blacks of African descent carry the Curse of Ham. Their ignorance, laziness, rape urges, and evil pitch black skin are all plagues that stem from this curse. Whites do the Lord's work when they enslave them and drive them back in to their jungle lair.

 

[blue falcon]

All blacks of African descent carry the Curse of Ham. Their ignorance, laziness, rape urges, and evil pitch black skin are all plagues that stem from this curse. Whites do the Lord's work when they enslave them and drive them back in to their jungle lair.

Ham was not cursed Canan was.

 

[Hyde Parke]

Whar, where were you educated?

 

[whar67]

Whar, where were you educated?

Fresno State .. if you are looking for my college.

 

[Hyde Parke]

Does God hate Haiti? In the sense that Haiti is actively engaged in abominable witchcraft yes. God does hate that kind of wickedness and has destroyed many civilizations for it.

not every person in Haiti participates in withcraft or wickedness. Not even a large number.

 

[blue falcon]

not every person in Haiti participates in withcraft or wickedness. Not even a large number.

Its enough for God to continually plauge their land.