Questions and Statements about God...

[whar67]

1. I would imagine Hitler thought he was right. You make an odd transition fom thought he was right to was right. You eliminate the thought but I do not see the difference. Even if God thinks what Hitler did was wrong it is still a thought. Right and wrong are judgements we make about events and such. These judgements do not have substance and only exist as thought. You claim to know the truth of God's desires regarding right and wrong yet I really only have your word and my judgement to guide me to an answer. It is trivial to find alternate criteria of right and wrong within the various christian denominations. How can their be an absolute right or wrong when there is absolutely no agreement on it?

1.a 2+2=4 2+2=10 ... There exists a long proof that 1+1 =2 or 2+2=4 this does move it into an objective realm. Also both statements are true though given the correct circumstances. 2+2=4 for all statements using base 5 or higher, 2+2=10 for base 4 notation. Neither statement is true in binary or trinary notation.

2. The 9/11 hijackers were driven by their belief their acts were holy as misguided as that was. This morning when I woke up I brushed my teeth. I did not do this because I am atheist I did it because I wanted to clean my teeth. Stalin did not kill people due to an absense of belief in God. He did so due to percieved political gain.

3. Special pleading as I use is to state I deserve special privledge or status just for be me. I can not make this claim as I am a person like billions of others with similars wants and desires. Since I can not logically create an arguement where I deserve special status to use an arguement where it is only true if I claim a special status fails.

3.a Uniformity in nature. Gravity and Light were the two items mentioned. Einstein and Newton have shown this. I will not poorly regurgitate their works here however their uniformity has been confirmed. Other confirmed uniformity are sub atomic particles, that is the particles that make up our world are the same as those making up a world on the other side of the universe. You may reearch the Standard Model for this piece. If you chose not to educate yourself on these issues that is your choice but do not seem surprised when people realize your words and ideas do not intersect with reality.

4. There is no objective standard. Why is your interpretation the 'truth' and others 'false'.

5. Back to objective moral weakness. Doesn't this mean if God shared with you that you were required to fight and kill in his name you would be morally bound do so? If he asked you to kill your own children?

 

[cwill 420]

It doesn't say God was with two angels. Where are you getting this from?.

[Gen. 19]...

 

[blue falcon]

[Gen. 19]...

but again this assumes that the two with God are angels and then even if it were two angels with God this assumes that these are the same two angels that were with God. Neither argument is supportable from scripture.

 

[cwill 420]

but again this assumes that the two with God are angels and then even if it were two angels with God this assumes that these are the same two angels that were with God. Neither argument is supportable from scripture.

Ugh, [Gen 18:22] says two out of the three men went to Sodom. [Gen 19:1] says two 'angels' came to Sodom that evening.
So there are two men and two 'angels' that went to Sodom. Putting two and two together, it's not hard to guess that these two men and 'angels' are one in the same.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

A belief is state of mind that you hold a proposition to be true. God loves me and I bought a Double Gulp this morning are both beliefs ... well actually only for someone who holds both to be true. A belief does not require a chance for falsity.

A belief that is in fact true is called knowledge. Philsophers would call it a justified true belief.

In a certain context. Which you are using incorrectly.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/

The dictionary is your friend.

 

[Hyde Parke]

It would seem we are using different definitions of belief. A belief is a state of mind that one holds a proposition to be true. Beliefs can be about big things or little thing, fantastic things or mundane. For example, I purchase a Double Gulp from 7-11 this morning. This is a belief I hold. It is a past event that has happen but it does not changethe fact it is also a proposition that I hold to be true. I enjoyed my steak last night is also a belief I hold.

Given the breadth of the definition I am using not all beliefs hinder growth or are dangerous. In fact, without belief people would be unable to function since they would hold nothing as true. However I would agree that a subset of belief if held to too rigidly or dogmatically can behave as you state. They would divide and stunt development of those that hold them. As to why people would allow that I could only guess. I imagine it is due to people defining themselves by what they belief, altering the belief then becomes altering the person. It is much hard to alter ones self-image than a belief.

i think if you purchased a Double Gulp from 7-11 this morning, that would be a fact. Not belief. If you told me you had a Double Gulp from 7-11 this morning, If I were not there to witness it myself, it would then be up to me to "believe" you. I dont think
facts need support to hold them as truths. Truth just is. a fact and a belief are not the same. a belief, as you stated, is something you hold to be truth. Truth, you do not hold. A fact does not need any beliefs to support it, however, a belief would need facts to support it.

you second paragraph is quite interesting, only problem is, there is no proverbial mark in the sand, to define when one has crossed the line where belief is concerned.

 

[blue falcon]

Ugh, [Gen 18:22] says two out of the three men went to Sodom. [Gen 19:1] says two 'angels' came to Sodom that evening.

So there are two men and two 'angels' that went to Sodom. Putting two and two together, it's not hard to guess that these two men and 'angels' are one in the same.

While this wouldn't be a completely illogical inferrance HOWEVER this doesn't say that the two men were angels nor that the two angels that went to Sodom were the same two men that were with God.

 

[cwill 420]

While this wouldn't be a completely illogical inferrance HOWEVER this doesn't say that the two men were angels nor that the two angels that went to Sodom were the same two men that were with God.

Why not?
[Gen 18:22] says that the two ‘men’ went toward Sodom. The following chapter [Gen. 19:1], In continuation says that the two “angels” (they were also called ‘men’ in the same chapter) made it to Sodom in the evening. Why would these be different 'men'?

 

[whar67]

In a certain context. Which you are using incorrectly.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/

The dictionary is your friend.

"a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing"

Ok now that the dictionary agree with me too what are your other objections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

 

[whar67]

i think if you purchased a Double Gulp from 7-11 this morning, that would be a fact. Not belief. If you told me you had a Double Gulp from 7-11 this morning, If I were not there to witness it myself, it would then be up to me to "believe" you. I dont think

facts need support to hold them as truths. Truth just is. a fact and a belief are not the same. a belief, as you stated, is something you hold to be truth. Truth, you do not hold. A fact does not need any beliefs to support it, however, a belief would need facts to support it.

you second paragraph is quite interesting, only problem is, there is no proverbial mark in the sand, to define when one has crossed the line where belief is concerned.

Fact exist independently of those that believe in them. The fact I bought a Double Gulp this morning exist whether I do or not. If I get hit by a car I would have still purchase the soda. My knowledge of buying the soda however would have died with me. Knowledge is the intersection of all things that are true and all things that all believed.

Perhaps our problem is mostly semantics. If you exclude knowledge, beliefs that are true, and delusions, beliefs that are false, I would agree most of what you have stated. I would still maintain there are methods to evaluate beliefs but any such method would result in a fuzzy line between strong/weak or good/bad beliefs. There would be no definite line in the sand that would mark a clear border.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

"a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing"

Ok now that the dictionary agree with me too what are your other objections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

"Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

Ie. that god exists(person or being) Ie. that you won't get robbed when you go out.(thing).

Those are propositions or premises. The fact that you went out an got a slurpie at 7-11 is not a premise or proposition, its a fact, a reality. The dictionary does not agree with you, you agree with yourself about what you think the dictionary says.

 

[whar67]

"Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

Ie. that god exists(person or being) Ie. that you won't get robbed when you go out.(thing).

Those are propositions or premises. The fact that you went out an got a slurpie at 7-11 is not a premise or proposition, its a fact, a reality. The dictionary does not agree with you, you agree with yourself about what you think the dictionary says.

Proposition - something offered for consideration or acceptance

Premise - a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference

Belief - a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

The fact I got a Double Gulp is a fact. When I state to you that I bought a Double Gulp I am stating a proposition.

While you posted the first line of the Wiki what do you make of this one.

"The relationship between belief and knowledge is that a belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true."

Do you accept that knowledge is something you believe to be true and is actually true?

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Proposition - something offered for consideration or acceptance

Premise - a proposition antecedently supposed or proved as a basis of argument or inference

Belief - a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

The fact I got a Double Gulp is a fact. When I state to you that I bought a Double Gulp I am stating a proposition.

If you said you believed you went out to get a slurpie but wasn't sure, that is a proposition. Telling me you for sure went and got one and this you know for sure, that is not a proposition. Then it is up to me to have the BELIEF(trust or confidence in some person) that you actually went. You don't have to believe you went to the store, because you actually did!

I don't care about knowledge spew bit there, we were discussing how literally going to 7-11 wasn't a belief but a fact.

 

[whar67]

If you said you believed you went out to get a slurpie but wasn't sure, that is a proposition. Telling me you for sure went and got one and this you know for sure, that is not a proposition. Then it is up to me to have the BELIEF(trust or confidence in some person) that you actually went. You don't have to believe you went to the store, because you actually did!

I don't care about knowledge spew bit there, we were discussing how literally going to 7-11 wasn't a belief but a fact.

Proposition - something offered for consideration or acceptance

That is from the dictionary you told me to use.

How does "I bought a double gulp this morning" not meet that definition?

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Proposition - something offered for consideration or acceptance

That is from the dictionary you told me to use.

How does "I bought a double gulp this morning" not meet that definition?

Because it's not something you believed to have happened. It is something that did happen. If you don't get it yet, you may never.

 

[Hyde Parke]

If you said you believed you went out to get a slurpie but wasn't sure, that is a proposition. Telling me you for sure went and got one and this you know for sure, that is not a proposition. Then it is up to me to have the BELIEF(trust or confidence in some person) that you actually went. You don't have to believe you went to the store, because you actually did!
.

Yes, precisely. Eureka!

 

[Hyde Parke]

Fact exist independently of those that believe in them. The fact I bought a Double Gulp this morning exist whether I do or not. If I get hit by a car I would have still purchase the soda. My knowledge of buying the soda however would have died with me. Knowledge is the intersection of all things that are true and all things that all believed.

Perhaps our problem is mostly semantics. If you exclude knowledge, beliefs that are true, and delusions, beliefs that are false, I would agree most of what you have stated. I would still maintain there are methods to evaluate beliefs but any such method would result in a fuzzy line between strong/weak or good/bad beliefs. There would be no definite line in the sand that would mark a clear border.

Understood. I suppose this the one of the main problems that we are all faced with. Understanding is that median where we can all find common ground, even if we don't wholeheartedly agree with one another.

 

[whar67]

Because it's not something you believed to have happened. It is something that did happen. If you don't get it yet, you may never.

Ok one more time ... different angle.

If I hold the following thoughts in my head what do you call them?

God exist. (Belief)

I am Napoleon. (Delusion but still a belief)

I bought a Double Gulp. (XXXXXX?)

It can not be a fact because facts exist outside my head.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Ok one more time ... different angle.

If I hold the following thoughts in my head what do you call them?

God exist. (Belief)

I am Napoleon. (Delusion but still a belief)

I bought a Double Gulp. (XXXXXX?)

It can not be a fact because facts exist outside my head.

It would be an experience.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Ok one more time ... different angle.

If I hold the following thoughts in my head what do you call them?

God exist. (Belief)

I am Napoleon. (Delusion but still a belief)

I bought a Double Gulp. (XXXXXX?)

It can not be a fact because facts exist outside my head.

It would be an experience.

It would also be a memory.