Mr. Smith and Mr. Anderson explain Why We Are (Matrix)

[phanatron]

So why are Christians still waging war if its not condoned? In a time when Jesus was fresh in everyones story why were the Knights Templar formed they were specifically put together to capture solomons temple back why would he they not just leave it be. And please show me the verses where all that is frowned upon in the bible id love to see them, I have read the bible time and time again and have been to church 3-4 times a week until I was about 16 so please let me see these verses saying these things are wrong cause I dont recall studying or reading about them.

Well, I don't want to speak too much for DoUwanna, but I do think he would probably start out by rejecting the Knights Templar and then quote quote something from the Bible..maybe 'Blessed are the peacemakers' or more likely some verse that isn't likely to satisfy your question.

My point in all of this is that we can always come up with some answer, and if you want to believe, you will come up with some answer. When talking with most Christians, you aren't disagreeing with them, you are disagreeing with God. Or at least that's how they frame the response. They'll quote some Bible verse or use some biblical language and if you call bullshit, then you aren't calling bullshit on them, you are calling it on God.

The belief, the willingness to believe is a powerful thing. It changes the whole world around them. It gives them confidence and certainty. There is a certain amount of joy and peacefulness because they genuinely believe that God is on their side (or that they are on God's side).

The real question is what happens when someone knows that the belief system is empty and just a man made construct? DoUwant2go2Heaven almost seems to agree with Mr. Smith? If you don't believe, how are you any better than an animal? Why would anyone try to make the world a better place knowing that it is an empty shell game. Who would commit time and energy fighting for 'justice' when there is never any ultimate justice? As Mr. Smith asked, Why Mr. Anderson do you keep fighting (trying)?

The answer is that we can choose to make our lives better. We can choose to make a better society. We can choose to live in peace. Not for some future reward, but the benefit it brings right now. We can cultivate peace and love in our own hearts; not because God commands it, but because peace and love are their own reward. It isn't about fear or coercion, it's about understanding who we are as individuals and being ok with it.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Well, I don't want to speak too much for DoUwanna, but I do think he would probably start out by rejecting the Knights Templar and then quote quote something from the Bible..maybe 'Blessed are the peacemakers' or more likely some verse that isn't likely to satisfy your question.

My point in all of this is that we can always come up with some answer, and if you want to believe, you will come up with some answer. When talking with most Christians, you aren't disagreeing with them, you are disagreeing with God. Or at least that's how they frame the response. They'll quote some Bible verse or use some biblical language and if you call bullshit, then you aren't calling bullshit on them, you are calling it on God.

The belief, the willingness to believe is a powerful thing. It changes the whole world around them. It gives them confidence and certainty. There is a certain amount of joy and peacefulness because they genuinely believe that God is on their side (or that they are on God's side).

The real question is what happens when someone knows that the belief system is empty and just a man made construct? DoUwant2go2Heaven almost seems to agree with Mr. Smith? If you don't believe, how are you any better than an animal? Why would anyone try to make the world a better place knowing that it is an empty shell game. Who would commit time and energy fighting for 'justice' when there is never any ultimate justice? As Mr. Smith asked, Why Mr. Anderson do you keep fighting (trying)?

The answer is that we can choose to make our lives better. We can choose to make a better society. We can choose to live in peace. Not for some future reward, but the benefit it brings right now. We can cultivate peace and love in our own hearts; not because God commands it, but because peace and love are their own reward. It isn't about fear or coercion, it's about understanding who we are as individuals and being ok with it.

I can respect what your saying but at the same time, I became an athiest because I see athiest doing more to help civilization then religion has, christians and other religions alike automatically assume that your possesed or evil when we are often times helping people out more by action than they do by preaching from a book. If they are religious great its good to stand for something but at the same time It annoys me how they discredit things that are real, its proven fact the Teplars existed they will argue that, the earths age, gospels being written by followers not disciples themselves, Jesus being a buddhist his teen years, These things are factual proof yet the blantenly turn the other cheek and dismiss them as fraudulant when they are not. The reason I stopped believing and attending church is because I looked at things from the both sides and realized that so much is proven wrong through science and through archeology its hard to believe the bible.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

I think he is saying God in our mind is what's important. If we believe in a God, we are more than animals.

Oh yeah you're right, I miss read what he said. But what I said still fits, our mind, not god in our mind is what makes us "more" than animals.

 

[phanatron]

I can respect what your saying but at the same time, I became an athiest because I see athiest doing more to help civilization then religion has, christians and other religions alike automatically assume that your possesed or evil when we are often times helping people out more by action than they do by preaching from a book. If they are religious great its good to stand for something but at the same time It annoys me how they discredit things that are real, its proven fact the Teplars existed they will argue that, the earths age, gospels being written by followers not disciples themselves, Jesus being a buddhist his teen years, These things are factual proof yet the blantenly turn the other cheek and dismiss them as fraudulant when they are not. The reason I stopped believing and attending church is because I looked at things from the both sides and realized that so much is proven wrong through science and through archeology its hard to believe the bible.

There isn't much here that I disagree with. I too went to church frequently and was taught to treat other religions skeptically. Once I conducted the same analysis on Christianity as I did on other religions, the flaws were obvious.

It is conceivable that Christianity is true, but it is also conceivable that all other major religions are true. If we accept that most all religions exclude the possibility of other religions being equally true, we can say that all religions are likely equally false. For me, I found that Buddhism contained the lease assumptions and wasn't centered around a non-provable metaphysical hypothesis. It just so happens that almost all Buddhist are also athiest.

 

[phanatron]

Oh yeah you're right, I miss read what he said. But what I said still fits, our mind, not god in our mind is what makes us "more" than animals.

I would agree with what you said. I think we underestimate the power of our minds. Let's take 3 'god' centered religions. Christianity, Hinduism, and Islam. All three conflict with each other. All three call for different ways to act. All three cannot be right. Yet, regardless of whether they are right or not, people act as if they are. Generation after generation, the belief in these religions have shaped the world that we live in. Even a non-believer can see how powerful the belief is. This is a tribute to the power of the mind itself. It also shows that God need not exist at all for millions, if not billions, of people to shape their lives in such a manner that conforms to the mere belief in God.

 

[Chike]

You've reduced yourself to living like an animal. This is what happens when people deny God. They lose their sense of self, purpose, and meaning. They thus become blind to truth and open to every lie and scheme conceivable. You've lowered yourself to living like a pig. All of mankind has done this. When man lives like a pig, he acts like a pig, walks like a pig, thinks like a pig, and talks like a pig. You have come accustomed to living in pig slop Mr. Phanatron. That's why Jesus said no one can enter into the kingdom unless he is born-again. When your born once, you die twice. When your born twice, you die once. You have forgotten who your maker is Mr. Phanatron and the evidence is in the pudding. Jesus said, by their fruit ye shall know them. Your fruit is clearly evident and quite frankly it's sad. It's sad to see a man reduce himself to a pig like state. No meaning, no purpose, no function, no desire, no thought. It's truly sad.

I would ask you how you can believe the world isn't in any particular condition, but it's pointless because you are lost. You have no clue at all. Your stuck in a stupor because of your lost condition. You are the epitome of what it means to be lost. God have mercy on you.

For once, I can actually make some sense out of one of your posts. Everyone has a nature, to find that nature of self, is to "find god", to find truth, to find true love. If you are raised like a "pig" you will behave like one. It's the same concept of taking a tiger out of the jungle and raising it domestically... and then put it back into the jungle, it wont survive because it doesn't know how to be a tiger anymore. Same shit is happening to the human race. We don't know how to be natural anymore, so now we kill ourselves by eating nasty junk that's processed in a plant and made up of un-0natural ingredients, as well as killing eachother over something as illusive as an ego and currency because we think these are the things that we are made of, which we are not. Right now, the majority of humanity are walking down an un-natural path... or what some would call an un-"godly" path.... call it what you will but it is what it is... Alot of people are waking up and the higher ups realize this, that's why they are kicking shit into over drive but it's too late for them. Their reign of terror is over and it's only a matter of short time before shit pops off and the world enters into a new era... prophicised by many ancient cultures like the Mayans as well as even in the bible... It's time humanity found it's nature once again so we can live in harmony with eachother and our world.

 

[phanatron]

For once, I can actually make some sense out of one of your posts. Everyone has a nature, to find that nature of self, is to "find god", to find truth, to find true love. If you are raised like a "pig" you will behave like one. It's the same concept of taking a tiger out of the jungle and raising it domestically... and then put it back into the jungle, it wont survive because it doesn't know how to be a tiger anymore. Same shit is happening to the human race. We don't know how to be natural anymore, so now we kill ourselves by eating nasty junk that's processed in a plant and made up of un-0natural ingredients, as well as killing eachother over something as illusive as an ego and currency because we think these are the things that we are made of, which we are not. Right now, the majority of humanity are walking down an un-natural path... or what some would call an un-"godly" path.... call it what you will but it is what it is... Alot of people are waking up and the higher ups realize this, that's why they are kicking shit into over drive but it's too late for them. Their reign of terror is over and it's only a matter of short time before shit pops off and the world enters into a new era... prophicised by many ancient cultures like the Mayans as well as even in the bible... It's time humanity found it's nature once again so we can live in harmony with eachother and our world.

While I'll agree that humans have a 'nature', I disagree with what you say our nature is. A person's nature is what they are inclined to do without influence. By nature, we are curious and we seek to discover the world around us and make sense of it. It is from this that the invention of god comes. As a primary function, god is generally the answer to mysteries that humans cannot explain. In all societies, great and small, isolated or intergrated, we find some form of god. God has been used to explain the tides, whether the sun would rise, whether it would rain, etc. In many societies, there were specific gods that directly controlled these actions and many others.

Our nature is not one that 'knows' god, our nature is to invent god(s). As David Hume once said, the more ignorant the populous, the greater the god.

 

[alissowack]

I like the keymaker. He was made to do what he was made to do and was true to the end.

 

[CapitalB]

Oh yeah you're right, I miss read what he said. But what I said still fits, our mind, not god in our mind is what makes us "more" than animals.

so animals dont think?? is that what ur insinuating?? so they jus run around on autopilot?? lmfao yeh.. okay

 

[ThaChozenWun]

so animals dont think?? is that what ur insinuating?? so they jus run around on autopilot?? lmfao yeh.. okay

I think he means that we have the ability to use reason and logic, at least non religious people do. Animals on the other hand are primarily instinctive and really do nothing other than Eat, sleep, and fuck. Animals have "laser beam" intelligence, in which a specific solution is used to solve a specific problem. But these solutions cannot be applied to new situations or to solve different kinds of problem. In contrast, humans have "floodlight" cognition, allowing us to use thought processes in new ways and to apply the solution of one problem to another situation. While animals can transfer across systems, this is only done in a limited way. Another small but important comparison would be tools. Chimpanzees use tools just as humans do however, We use tools and create them with the purpose of doing multiple things or we can figure out other uses. In Chimpanzees they are taught to use a tool one way and are not capable of thinking of extra uses for said object.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

so animals dont think?? is that what ur insinuating?? so they jus run around on autopilot?? lmfao yeh.. okay

The kind of mind that allows humans to reflect on themselves. The kind of mind that allows us to ponder our existence. Or the kind of mind that allows us to stare at ourselves in a mirror for 20 minutes thinking how gorgeous or ugly we are. No I don't think animals have that kind of mind. I do think animals can think, I do not think they run around on 'autopilot'.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

The kind of mind that allows humans to reflect on themselves. The kind of mind that allows us to ponder our existence. Or the kind of mind that allows us to stare at ourselves in a mirror for 20 minutes thinking how gorgeous or ugly we are. No I don't think animals have that kind of mind. I do think animals can think, I do not think they run around on 'autopilot'.

Apes and Chimpanzees do worry about their appearence according to studies but the rest is right.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Apes and Chimpanzees do worry about their appearence according to studies but the rest is right.

Oh for sure, I was watching some documentary on apes who stared at themselves in mirrors, they did recognize that the thing in the mirror was them. Which is pretty amazing. Up until a certain age humans don't even realize the thing in the mirror is them.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Oh for sure, I was watching some documentary on apes who stared at themselves in mirrors, they did recognize that the thing in the mirror was them. Which is pretty amazing. Up until a certain age humans don't even realize the thing in the mirror is them.

Yea I watched something on Nat Geo not too long ago where they set up to tables with one having male type object (tools, swimsuit magazines, and footballs) Then set up a female based table with Jewelry, Perfume, and Make up and all the male apes chose the male table while all but 1 female ape chose the female table which shocked the hell out of me that they would pretty much think like the typical male/female human.

 

[krymson kurensi]

Agent Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?

10 characters

 

[CapitalB]

I think he means that we have the ability to use reason and logic, at least non religious people do. Animals on the other hand are primarily instinctive and really do nothing other than Eat, sleep, and fuck. Animals have "laser beam" intelligence, in which a specific solution is used to solve a specific problem. But these solutions cannot be applied to new situations or to solve different kinds of problem. In contrast, humans have "floodlight" cognition, allowing us to use thought processes in new ways and to apply the solution of one problem to another situation. While animals can transfer across systems, this is only done in a limited way. Another small but important comparison would be tools. Chimpanzees use tools just as humans do however, We use tools and create them with the purpose of doing multiple things or we can figure out other uses. In Chimpanzees they are taught to use a tool one way and are not capable of thinking of extra uses for said object.

im not gonna even bother derailing this thread to tell u how wrong u are..
i was jus compelled to to reply to inform u know that u really dont know what ur talking about..

and also that ur read was quite amusing cause u put alot of thought into it.. but do carry on...

 

[CapitalB]

The kind of mind that allows humans to reflect on themselves. The kind of mind that allows us to ponder our existence. Or the kind of mind that allows us to stare at ourselves in a mirror for 20 minutes thinking how gorgeous or ugly we are. No I don't think animals have that kind of mind. I do think animals can think, I do not think they run around on 'autopilot'.

well im glad to know u acknowledge that animals do think and are not on "auto pilot"
but how do u know what an animal is pondering?? jus curious?? and put a mirror in front of an animal and see their amusement..

 

[ThaChozenWun]

im not gonna even bother derailing this thread to tell u how wrong u are..

i was jus compelled to to reply to inform u know that u really dont know what ur talking about..

and also that ur read was quite amusing cause u put alot of thought into it.. but do carry on...

Is it my post makes no sense and is wrong or could it be you just dont understand what youre reading considering i straight jacked most of it off arpas.org which is a research center for animals. I find it hard to believe something voted on and written by scientist specializing in a certain field are wrong.

 

[CapitalB]

Is it my post makes no sense and is wrong or could it be you just dont understand what youre reading considering i straight jacked most of it off arpas.org which is a research center for animals. I find it hard to believe something voted on and written by scientist specializing in a certain field are wrong.

1. its common knowledge that ull have one study sayin one thing and have another study saying the completely opposite and both will be by "specialist"
2. even more hilarity.. ur a google genius.. how bout u come with ur own cohesive thoughts??

i was with u on the anti religion threads uv been making over the last few days.. but now i dont know what to make of u.. ur no better then Heaven dude.. all he does is copy and paste and present it as fact... i said i didnt wanna derail the thread talking about animals.. but nothing uv said made since.. and if ur site actually said "laser beam intelligence" and u took that as credible.. kill urself..

 

[ThaChozenWun]

1. its common knowledge that ull have one study sayin one thing and have another study saying the completely opposite and both will be by "specialist"

2. even more hilarity.. ur a google genius.. how bout u come with ur own cohesive thoughts??

i was with u on the anti religion threads uv been making over the last few days.. but now i dont know what to make of u.. ur no better then Heaven dude.. all he does is copy and paste and present it as fact... i said i didnt wanna derail the thread talking about animals.. but nothing uv said made since.. and if ur site actually said "laser beam intelligence" and u took that as credible.. kill urself..

Well Im not an animal specialist and never studied them so I searched that site my wife studies animals for her career and she said that site respectable, I dont know nothing about animals so instead of making something in my own words I pasted what the article said so I didnt leave anything out or state something false. Ive seen stuff on national geographic and discovery channel about the subject but again Ive never studied it so I went to a credable source to get my information.

As far as laserbeam intelligence they are referancing how an animals mind focuses solely on one thing and focuses on that object or task until it is complete or understood where as humans have a "floodlight" where we see more of the surroundings as well as what we are focused on, we are able to multi-task where as most animals cannot. But like you said this thread isnt about animals so Ill stop there just figured id explain why I pasted it instead of writing something myself out of ignorance.