Man, the pastor at our church really dropped the ball today.

[GaryArnold]

I have found this to be common practice among many pastors. Your pastor goes to another church and gives a sermon on tithing, and another pastor comes to your church and gives a sermon on tithing. This is a part of their strategy - let you hear what they have been pounding into you by someone else. That is supposed to valid their own tithing message. AND, at the same time, not only does each pastor get his regular salary, but now will receive a check from the church they just gave the sermon to. Another way for them to get MORE MONEY. It's all about M-O-N-E-Y.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

meanwhile, almost 2 days ago, and 3 pages back:

although this is obvious enough, to whereas it need no solidifying post...

still, the most unfortunate part about this, is that your words to the member I quoted you (here) responding to...

does indeed serve as a potential sign of how you might just be programmed to view me as wrong, compelled to argue against whatever I post, subconsciously-sworn into helping evolve the peculiarly (-) energy I keep dealing with here. real talk, my friend, so don't respond just----------------REFLECT:

No need to fight me, pal, I am your brother!

*sigh* What you didn't get then and still don't seem to get is that I was never arguing against giving tithes and offering. You were trying fight me over that. I never at any point said anything was wrong with that. Why is this so hard for you to understand? From the start, you've been trying to convince me that tithes were right and that giving an offering in addition to tithint is ok too. I have never once said you were wrong about that. I have never once argued about that. I don't have a problem with you really, but I do think you need to learn to read and understand the points of others more clearly. You often seem to go off on rants that have nothing to do with the argument that others make, and then once you go down that path you refuse to come off of it.

When I visit a church (I no longer belong to any church and visit only once in a while), I give what God has put in my heart to give. That might be as little as $1.

The tithe in the Old Testament was NEVER used to finance a church, or to spread the gospel, or for missionary work, etc. The Levitical Tithe, aka The Lord's Tithe, was given to the Levites to keep up The Temple where the Spirit of God lived. The Festival Tithe was a feast where the people consumed the tithe. The Third Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe was for the poor. NO TITHE was used for any church finances or for spreading God's Word.

In Matthew 25:42-45 Jesus tells us that when you give to the needy/poor, you are giving to Him. Jesus NEVER said that when you give to the church you are giving to Him. Actually, when you give to the church, you are giving to man - a building to worship in, air conditioning to keep cool or heat to stay warm, seating, P.A. system to hear the Word better, salaries for pastor, secretary, etc. That benefits YOU. Now, MAYBE a small part actually goes to help the poor, but that would be a very small percentage.

The Bible does teach that we should give where there is a need. IF your church NEEDS more funds, then you should contribute to help fill that need.

We are to be good stewards of 100% of what God gives to us. That means you should know what your church is doing with the funds you give. IF the church leaders are not good stewards of the money collected (and I have NEVER found any church leaders who are good stewards), then you shouldn't give more than a small amount. Pastors will tell you to give and don't worry what they do with the money. That, my friend, goes AGAINST Biblical teaching.

Most of what I give goes directly to families in need. I am, therefore, giving to God by helping others. When I attend church, I give to PAY my fair share. It is really a payment for services received. Paul even said the teacher deserves to be paid even though Paul said he would rather die than sell the gospel.

YOU have a choice - you can be a generous giver, or you can keep the money for yourself. YOUR PASTOR has a choice - he can give his services without pay or he can ask to be paid for his services. Notice how pastors have a double standard - they want to be paid but want you to give. They claim to have given their whole life to The Lord, and then SELL GOD'S WORD! Now tell me, is that GIVING themselves to The Lord, or is it SELLING themselves to The Lord?

I don't have much to say in disagreement with your points here. I think your reasoning is valid. The only thing I'll say is that you're not acknowledging that good churches do charity work. The money that you give in tithes and offering are not just for the running of the church. They also fund the missionary and charity work of the church.

The one thing I do disagree with is what you're saying in the last paragraph. You're making it seem like it's wrong to get paid to be a pastor. If your career in life is being a pastor, then you should get paid. It's not about selling the word. People aren't paying you for your preaching. People are paying you for the time you invest in being their spiritual advisor and counselor. If a person dedicates most of their time to that calling, they don't have much time left to earn money for themsleves so they have to be paid by those they serve. There is nothing wrong with that. I do think there is a problem when so called evangelists ask for money or charge people to give sermons. That's directly against the Bible. Jesus told his disciples to never accept money or gifts when traveling and spreading he word. Now getting rich off of being pastor, that's something different. There does seem to be something very wrong about that.

 

[GaryArnold]

I agree, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for services rendered. But I believe pastors should also have a regular job to earn their living.

Roger Williams founded the Baptist Church in the USA in the 1600s. He was asked about tithing. He said there would NEVER be tithing in the Baptist Church BECAUSE IT WOULD LEAD TO CAREER PASTORS with wrong motives in their sermons. About 250 years later, Baptist Church leaders decided they wanted to bring in more money and then decided to start teaching tithing. I guess Roger Williams was correct. NOW we have career pastors many of whom preach with the wrong motives.

Of course some churches do good charity work, but most do not. Giving the hungry a meal at Thanksgiving or Christmas is not doing much at all. Helping the poor should be a continuous happening.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

I agree, there is nothing wrong with getting paid for services rendered. But I believe pastors should also have a regular job to earn their living.

Roger Williams founded the Baptist Church in the USA in the 1600s. He was asked about tithing. He said there would NEVER be tithing in the Baptist Church BECAUSE IT WOULD LEAD TO CAREER PASTORS with wrong motives in their sermons. About 250 years later, Baptist Church leaders decided they wanted to bring in more money and then decided to start teaching tithing. I guess Roger Williams was correct. NOW we have career pastors many of whom preach with the wrong motives.

Of course some churches do good charity work, but most do not. Giving the hungry a meal at Thanksgiving or Christmas is not doing much at all. Helping the poor should be a continuous happening.

I don't see anything wrong with career pastors. My wife's grandmother is such a pastor, she literally puts 60+ hours into the church and helping the people of her congregation. Those people depend on her, so I would say she earns whatever money they give her. Pastors put on many hats. They are preachers, counselors, confidantes, social workers, etc... Good ones basically play the role of community leader and that goes beyond just being a spiritual guide. I do agree that a lot of them abuse this system, but a lot of people are corrupt in general. No matter what system you have, there are going to be people who abuse it.

I can only speak for the churches of which I've been a part. All of them have had ministries and groups that helped with the poor and less fortunate year round. Like I've said before, the argument isn't as much about whether or not you should pay as much as it is what church you're going to. If you're going to a church that is going to misuse the money you give, then you probably shouldn't be at that church to begin with.

 

[GaryArnold]

Many will disagree with my comments below.

Christians should depend on God, NOT their pastor. That's one of the problems I have with career pastors. They think they are qualified to give all kinds of advice.

IF you truly have The Spirit within, one needs to pray and seek the Spirit for guidance, NOT go running to a pastor who in many cases (NOT all cases), doesn't know much more than the layman. In too many cases it's the blind leading the blind.

BEFORE Calvary, people didn't have the Spirit. They had to go to the priests. NOW, God has given us The Spirit to guide us. We don't need to go running to a pastor every time we have a problem.

By a pastor always being available to help people with their problems, many come to depend on their pastor INSTEAD of depending on God. Instead of advising, pastors should be encouraging their members to pray and seek the Spirit.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Many will disagree with my comments below.

Christians should depend on God, NOT their pastor. That's one of the problems I have with career pastors. They think they are qualified to give all kinds of advice.

IF you truly have The Spirit within, one needs to pray and seek the Spirit for guidance, NOT go running to a pastor who in many cases (NOT all cases), doesn't know much more than the layman. In too many cases it's the blind leading the blind.

BEFORE Calvary, people didn't have the Spirit. They had to go to the priests. NOW, God has given us The Spirit to guide us. We don't need to go running to a pastor every time we have a problem.

By a pastor always being available to help people with their problems, many come to depend on their pastor INSTEAD of depending on God. Instead of advising, pastors should be encouraging their members to pray and seek the Spirit.

I don't see why anyone would disagree with you here, especially if they are a Protestant. We all have our own personal connection with God. I think pastors serve a role. They are there to guide people who are lost and help them find the path. The more mature your relationship is with God, the less dependant you should be on your pastor. Every once in a while you might have crisis of faith which your pastor can help with, but in reality, you should be able to deal with any problem you have by going to God first.

I love the Gospel of Matthew. It's like Proverbs in that it has something that addresses just about everything. I think these verses support your point pretty well:

Matthew 23: 8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

I think these verses make two important points. For one, Jesus is instructing the people not to elevate any man, pastor or otherwise, spiritually. We are all brothers in the Lord, so while you may have to defer from time to time to someone who is more knowledgable, you really shouldn't look at anyone as being higher in the spirit than yourself. The second point I think it's making is towards religious leaders. It's basically letting them know that even though they might have a position of authority in the faith, they should be humble with it. They shouldn't raise themselves above the people. They should act as servants to the peopl. This is very different than what you see in churches nowadays. Nowadays, preachers are like local celebrities.

Also, how could the Catholics have missed this. They read the same Bible we do, so how could everyone of that faith have missed the part where it specifically tells them not to do what they do constantly as a tenet of their faith. I mean granted some things are open for interpretation as we'e seen in this very thread. However, there is no room for interpretation. Jesus clearly said not to call anyone "Father" as far as spiritual matters go, yet that is exactly what they do.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

please my friend, don't think that just because there is a band of members who despise me here...that it isn't obvious, how I said exactly what the guy says who you embrace and validate, where you argued me down and trivialized my words which you compliment in another poster.

That's a fact here, I just showed you too...exactly where I said the same thing pages ago, yet you still come here posting like I said something else. People can read, my friend.

Readers might choose to stay silent because the double-standard is exercised vs. me.....but they still can read. They still can see your peculiarity here.

And look, you even do the same thing again, below...haha...you know I'm actually starting to feel sorry for you all in that lil' crew who attack my words constantly or ask me not to join discussions so much, oh yes, now it's become quite clear to see the agenda toward everything I've been posting in this forum.

It's okay though, I will continue to pray for you all.

haha...but mines isn't valid? And I was first here to mention (an offering in your Pastor's church) which you now call valid/since you don't have much to say in disagreement with him------only with me, for saying the same thing...haha

I don't know how else to say it. I've said it a million times. I did not disagree with you when you said those things. That was not the bone of contention. I've spent this whole thread arguing with you over the fact that you and I were talking about different things. You were trying to prove to me that tithing and giving and offering were the right thing to do. Get this in your head. I never disagreed with that. Let me repeat I NEVER DISAGREED WITH THAT. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

You want to argue with me so bad that you keeping on beating a dead horse. I never once in this entire thread spoke against tithing or any other kind of offering. The point of this thread was to discuss how my pastor misrepresented a scripture to make his point and how you have to be vigilant when listening to the word because Pastors are human and make mistakes.

You are the one that kept on going on and on about tithing being important and about how it's good to give extra offering. Those are arguments you needed to be having with Gary and kids because they were the ones saying that you no longer need to pay tithes.

If you're going to be thickheaded just stop responding to my posts. I'm not going to tell you this again. If you want to keep arguing about something that was a non-issue to begin with, you are going to have to do that alone.

 

[elmasduro]

yo i read this thread and gary u bring up good points but i got a question i want to follow the word of god but all i want the truth and nuthin but the truth (i know the church is mad shady and i been questioning them and religion all my life cuz they have twisted the word of to they liking) so should i start with the KJV or the OT and what other books would ya recommend?

 

[GaryArnold]

elmasduro,

In my opinion, the KJV of the Bible is the most authoritative version and I use it when dealing with the law. I may at times also use other versions for clarity, but I am careful to make sure the other versions don't change the meaning of the KJV. I use, in conjunction with the KJV, Strongs concordance with Hebrew and Greek dictionaries, also recognized as an authority. I am very careful when using commentaries as you can find a commentary to support just about any interpretation you want.

When dealing with the topic of New Testament giving, it is my preference to use the NIV. The reason for this is that the New Testament teaches principles of giving, not laws. Therefore, it is not as important to have an exact translation, and the NIV is easier for me to teach from on giving.

Any time you go to books written by man, you are getting someone's interpretations. However, there are some good books on the topic of tithing that I can recommend. I have written a book on tithing and giving that I believe is one of the best available for someone who wants to learn a lot in a little amount of time. My book is titled TITHING TODAY. Probably the best authoritative book on the topic of tithing is SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING by Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D. It is the most detailed book on the topic I have studied from, but this book is very lengthy and really best for someone going for their Masters or Ph.D in theology. Both books are available as free downloads. Just do a google search if you are interested.

Having a strong background in accounting and taxes, I noticed problems with todays teaching of tithing that most other authors have missed. In my book, I first teach the difference between assets and income before I actually get to the topic of the tithe since without a knowledge of what constitutes assets as compared to income, you cannot possibly understand The Lord's Tithe. This problem is because pastors have added the accounting term income, or gross income, or net income to their teaching, which terms are NOT in the Bible.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

I'm just going to stick to feeling sorry, for you, and those who bring these antics at me of late. I'll just keep praying for you all, my friend, at some point Satan will lose his grip on you.

The fact that I mentioned "offerings" and how they validated your Pastor's sermon and I got argued down for it, as you turned and commended another member for mentioning 'offerings' almost two days later;

does more than enough to highlight your ill-will towards me and illuminate your 'peculiarly-institutionalized' approach to my contributions.

You know, I really question your reading comprehension. You mentioned offerings because you believed I was saying my pastor was preaching that we should give more than just tithes. Once again, that was never a point of contention. A) That's not what my pastor was preaching to begin with showing the fact that you either didn't read or understand the first post B) I never said anything was wrong with giving extra offerings so you saying that I argued you down over that is a flat out lie.

On top of that, you quoting Gary as if he's saying the same thing you were and your points aren't even close. Again, you were trying to make the argument that if a preacher tells you it's good to give an extra offering in addition to tithes that you should do it. Gary was explaining what his interepretation for the correct analog of tithes for those living under the New Covenant. You're so busy trying to throw a pity party for yourself because everyone is ganging up on you and accusing people of working for the devil that you don't even try to read and understand posts.

Like I said, if you're not going to read what I say and put an effort into comprehending it, don't bother responding. There is no point in trying to hold a debate with someone like you who is only capable of arguing against straw men.

 

[VIBE]

God gave His definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 to be crops and animals raised on the HOLY LAND. Nothing else qualified.

Next, God gave His tithing ordinances in Numbers 18 where He commanded the tithe be taken to the Levites. God NEVER gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe.

It is impossible to pay the Biblical tithe today. That's why the New Testament gives instructions as to how the Christian Church is to be financed - by generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart. NO MORE TITHING. PERIOD.

So, while that basket is being passed around, what is it? Is that tithing, or an offering? If I just give from the heart, if it's $1 or $20, that is my "generous, sacrificial giving" ?? If so, then that's cool.

 

[GaryArnold]

So, while that basket is being passed around, what is it? Is that tithing, or an offering? If I just give from the heart, if it's $1 or $20, that is my "generous, sacrificial giving" ?? If so, then that's cool.

It's an offering. NOT the Biblical tithe.

 

[elmasduro]

elmasduro,

In my opinion, the KJV of the Bible is the most authoritative version and I use it when dealing with the law. I may at times also use other versions for clarity, but I am careful to make sure the other versions don't change the meaning of the KJV. I use, in conjunction with the KJV, Strongs concordance with Hebrew and Greek dictionaries, also recognized as an authority. I am very careful when using commentaries as you can find a commentary to support just about any interpretation you want.

When dealing with the topic of New Testament giving, it is my preference to use the NIV. The reason for this is that the New Testament teaches principles of giving, not laws. Therefore, it is not as important to have an exact translation, and the NIV is easier for me to teach from on giving.

Any time you go to books written by man, you are getting someone's interpretations. However, there are some good books on the topic of tithing that I can recommend. I have written a book on tithing and giving that I believe is one of the best available for someone who wants to learn a lot in a little amount of time. My book is titled TITHING TODAY. Probably the best authoritative book on the topic of tithing is SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING by Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D. It is the most detailed book on the topic I have studied from, but this book is very lengthy and really best for someone going for their Masters or Ph.D in theology. Both books are available as free downloads. Just do a google search if you are interested.

Having a strong background in accounting and taxes, I noticed problems with todays teaching of tithing that most other authors have missed. In my book, I first teach the difference between assets and income before I actually get to the topic of the tithe since without a knowledge of what constitutes assets as compared to income, you cannot possibly understand The Lord's Tithe. This problem is because pastors have added the accounting term income, or gross income, or net income to their teaching, which terms are NOT in the Bible.

thanks man i appreciate it