Man, the pastor at our church really dropped the ball today.

[GaryArnold]

You are tampering with God's Word if you change His definition and ordinances. YOU are changing God's definition of His tithe from crops and animals (God's increase) to man's income. (Leviticus 27:30-33). You are tampering with God's ordinances when you change His command from taking the tithe to the Levites to taking the tithe to the Christian Church. The Levites were to keep up The Temple WHERE THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVED. Now the Spirit lives within our bodies. Now our bodies are the Temple.

God NEVER commanded the first of anything to be His tithe. It was the tenth, NOT the first.

Nehemiah 10:37-38 (KJV)

37And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

38And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

In Nehemiah 10:37 we learn that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests, and the tithes were taken to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities. Therefore, it has been established that firstfruits have nothing to do with the tithe.

In Nehemiah 10:38 we learn that the Levites would take a tithe of the tithe to the temple. It is this tithe, the tithe from the Levites, that went to the storehouse, not the tithe from the people. This is important to remember when we study Malachi 3:10.

Are you aware that the priests and Levites only worked at the Temple about two weeks per year, on a rotational basis? NOT FULL TIME. The priests and Levites were divided into 24 "courses". See First Chronicles 24 for the priests and chapters 25 and 26 for the Levites. Each course only ministered in the Temple one week out of twenty four (1 in 24), and, depending on how many families were in each course, each family only ministered in the Temple two or three days during its courses’ week of ministry. Bet your pastor has made you believe the Levites and priests worked full time at the Temple.

In 1 Timothy 5:8 we are told to first provide for our immediate family and our relatives before providing for others. In other words, we should provide for our needs, the needs of our immediate family, and the needs of relatives, before we give anything to the church. Read just about any well-known commentary on this verse.

In the Old Testament, firstfruits went to God by taking them to the priests. In the New Testament, the worker keeps the first part for himself. 2 Timothy 2:6 (NIV) - The hardworking farmer should be the first to receive a share of the crops.

The fact that you somehow think your church is following the law is really a joke. You change the definition and the rules, and you think you are following God's Word? God didn't say TAKE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES, OR WHOEVER YOU THINK YOU SHOULD TAKE IT TO. God didn't say to tithe on crops and animals, OR whatever you think you should tithe on. PURE MINIPULATION OF GOD'S WORD. ONLY IGNORANT OR DISHONEST PASTORS WOULD DO SUCH A THING!

You are NOT paying the Biblical tithe. First, the tithe HAD TO COME FROM THE HOLY LAND. Next, God limited His tithe to crops and animals. You might be fooling yourself, but you aren't fooling God.

If it makes you happy to tamper with God's Word, so be it. To say you tithe on your income and take it to the church is NOT following God's Word, it is changing it. Just use common sense here.

Numbers 18:27 (KJV) - And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.

To help you understand what this is say, I will now give you the same verse from TLB:

Numbers 18:27 (TLB) - The Lord will consider this as your first-of-the-harvest offering to him of grain and wine, as though it were from your own property.

In other words, this is treated AS THOUGH it actually came from a harvest, NOT from income. IF income could be tithed on, that verse would not be needed - it would be meaningless.

 

[kids in america_]

Wait a minute, maybe we have a difference in terminology. When I say Old Laws, all I'm talking about is the laws defined in the Old Testament and the scriptures that came before Jesus' life on earth. This includes the Mosaic Laws and other commandments associated with those laws, such as tithing. Those are the laws given by the prophets that are noted in the Jewish Scriptures and those are the laws to which Jesus was referring. As I've said before, in the verses after the one I posted from Matthew 5, he goes on to discuss the Mosaic Laws so it's pretty clear that's what he's talking about. You yourself have said that tithing was required as part of the Mosaic Laws, so there can't be any dispute that tithing is part of the law system that he was discussing.

You say I'm making assumptions about what Laws he's talking about, but it doesn't require any assumption on my part. Jesus was clearly talking about the laws that were in effect in Jewish community at the time, one of which was tithing. If he wasn't talking about those Laws, then what Laws was he talking about? If he wasn't talking about the Mosaic Laws then why did he basically go on to name those Laws exactly in the rest of that passage. No disrespect, but it seems to me that you're trying to pick and choose which laws he was talking about based on your own desires. You can't do that. Jesus confirmed that the Mosaic Laws/Old Laws/Laws in effect during his life would remain in effect til the end of the Earth. He gave no hint for anyone to believe that tithing wasn't one of those laws, and he confirmed in later verses that tithing was a commandment that should be kept. Those are things Jesus very clearly stated.

Are you telling me that all of the Mosaic laws are still in full force? Is that what you’re telling me?

Where is the clear statement that tithing no longer has to be done? You keep saying that its not necessary according to the New Testament, but where is that stated? What scripture confirms that tithing should no longer be done? What scripture cherry picks all the Laws that were kept after Jesus' death and discards the ones that weren't? I hear this type of thing a lot and I'm curious, so please post the scriptures that do this because its my understanding that no such scriptures exist. People seem just be speculating this and completely ignoring the fact that Jesus never claimed to be removing the need for laws such as tithing.

*in Obama's voice* [/B ]

Let me be clear! There are various forms of ‘tithing’ since ancient times. When I say ‘tithing’, I mean ‘tithing’ as ten percent of gross income. Meaning you have to give ten percent of your salary to “the church”. That form of ‘tithing’ is unbiblical.

 

[GaryArnold]

The Lonious Monk - Do YOU follow all the laws that were in effect during the time Jesus was on this earth? How about these:

Deuteronomy 14:22-27 – The Festival Tithe

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 – The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe

Leviticus 25:3-7 – The seven-year sabbath for the land

Do you stone to death those who work on the sabbath?

Do you follow all 613 laws that were in effect at that time?

Heck, you don't even follow the tithing commands! Do you tithe a tenth of crops and animals raised on the Holy Land? Do you take your tithe to the Levites?

Please tell me, just exactly which of the 613 laws do YOU follow?

There NEVER WAS a law to tithe on income. There NEVER WAS a law to take a tithe to the Christian Church. YOU, my friend, are following the teachings of ignorant pastors, NOT God's laws.

 

[kids in america_]

The Lonious Monk - Do YOU follow all the laws that were in effect during the time Jesus was on this earth? How about these:

Deuteronomy 14:22-27 – The Festival Tithe

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 – The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe

Leviticus 25:3-7 – The seven-year sabbath for the land

Do you stone to death those who work on the sabbath?

Do you follow all 613 laws that were in effect at that time?

Heck, you don't even follow the tithing commands! Do you tithe a tenth of crops and animals raised on the Holy Land? Do you take your tithe to the Levites?

Please tell me, just exactly which of the 613 laws do YOU follow?

There NEVER WAS a law to tithe on income. There NEVER WAS a law to take a tithe to the Christian Church. YOU, my friend, are following the teachings of ignorant pastors, NOT God's laws.

I agree Gary.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

We can agree to disagree. Jesus said we should tithe, so I'm going to tithe. You're trying to use a logical argument to find loopholes in the Bible that allows you not to tithe so that you don't have to tithe. Your money doesn't come to me so I don't care one way or the other. The one thing that I do agree with you about though is that I don't feel like the tithe necessarily has to go to the church. I think the tithe is meant for the building of God's kingdom, and that can be done outside of the church too.

 

[kids in america_]

We can agree to disagree. Jesus said we should tithe, so I'm going to tithe. You're trying to use a logical argument to find loopholes in the Bible that allows you not to tithe so that you don't have to tithe. Your money doesn't come to me so I don't care one way or the other. The one thing that I do agree with you about though is that I don't feel like the tithe necessarily has to go to the church. I think the tithe is meant for the building of God's kingdom, and that can be done outside of the church too.

Did Jesus say we should ‘tithe’ money?

 

[The Lonious Monk]

you know as I read Gary's posts, sir, I have to say I am reading something entirely different than you summarize here.

As a matter of fact, I think it's totally unfair to sum his stance up to, we can agree to disagree. When this is clearly about someone is right, while someone else is blatantly wrong and in order for mindset-modification...so in all due respect to you/and Spirit of your Pastor's sermon;

I feel it's irrationally-irresponsible to leave Gary's contributions, at agreeing, to disagree.

What do you want me to say? Someone probably is right and the other wrong, but we both have our own interpretations of things. He believes what he believes and I believe what I believe. Neither of our arguments are convincing the other, so we have to agree to disagree and let God sort it out when the time comes. I'm not going to condemn him for his beliefs because that's not my place, and at the end of the day even though I think he is wrong, I belief he is sincere is his convictions. That's a lot more than I can say about a lot of people out there nowadays.

Did Jesus say we should ‘tithe’ money?

Nope, in the very verse I put, Jesus noted that the Pharisees were tithing spices. We are supposed to 'tithe' on our earnings and production. If you're a farmer, I don't think it's wrong to give 10% of your crops to the hungry in the name of the Lord. That is a sacrifice and if you are doing it in the Lord's name, you are doing it to uplift his kingdom, so that should make it holy. Now, that's not Biblical. That's just my belief based on the spirit of what I've read. However, the simple answer to your questions is "No." That said, in today's world, most people earn money, so money is the easiest and most practical thing to tithe.

 

[GaryArnold]

You need to go back through the posts and see what I have written. If you have been reading what I say, you wouldn't say I am trying to find a loophole to get out of tithing.

Quote from earlier comment: "The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve than giving ten percent. "

For all but the poor, equal sacrifice is much harder to attain than giving ten percent. Being Spirit led, myself, I find myself giving FAR MORE than a mere ten percent of my income. In fact, FAR MORE than 20% of my income.

As far as the Israelite farmers not having money (or income), consider this:

The Bible shows they not only had money, but that money was used as a common way of doing business.

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

Here are just a few example from The Word to show they did, in fact, use money in Biblical times.

The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals (Deuteronomy 14:24-26).

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY ABRAHAM - Genesis 23:15-16

THE PURCHASE OF LAND BY JACOB - Genesis 33:19

JOSEPH WAS SOLD TO THE ISHMEELITES - Genesis 37:28

A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE - Exodus 30:14-16,

USING SHEKEL OF SILVER TO VALUE A RAM - Leviticus 5:15

THE FOLLOWING VERSES REFER TO WAGES: Genesis 29:15, Genesis 30:28, Genesis 31:7-8, Genesis 31:41, Exodus 2:9, Leviticus 19:13, Malachi 3:5, etc.

THEY HAD A MONEY STANDARD

There are several places in Scripture indicating that scales were used to weigh metals and other items. The Law of Moses, for example, commands Jews not to use dishonest standards, but instead, to use honest scales and honest weights. (See also Deut. 25:13-15; Job 6:2-3; 31:6; Psa. 62:9; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:10, 23; Isa. 40:12; 46:6; and Jer. 32:10).

Leviticus 19:35-36 – Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

In order for money to be an exchangeable equivalent for other commodities in today’s society, there must be a standard in place. Likewise, the Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. A reference to a pre-law standard is here in Genesis:23:16.

Merchants in biblical times traveled from place to place conducting business. According to the written law, the standard weight for metals was set according to the sanctuary shekel (See also Ex 30:13, 24; 38:24-26; Lev. 5:15; Num. 7:13-86; 18:16).

Leviticus 27:25 – Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, …

In addition, 2 Samuel 14:26 shows that the weight standard for the shekel was set by the royal standard. No matter which era in history is studied, there existed a standard for the weight of precious metals.

Money was also used throughout the law. For example, God’s people gave money to support the tabernacle (Ex. 30:14-16; 38:24-31). There are many other examples that illustrate money’s place within the written law and indicate that money was indeed a part of everyday life. Exodus 35 provides such an example.

Exodus 35:5, 21-22 – From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze;

And there are many more examples to show that money was used for everyday transactions well before the Levitical tithe.

I have PROVEN, by DEFINITION, not interpretation, that today no one is following God's commands to tithe.

Here's the real problem, my good friend. YOU are tithing BECAUSE you believe it is required per the words of Jesus, who was speaking of matters of the law. Tithing for that reason means you have put yourself under the law; thus, you have fallen from grace. Furthermore, the Word says those who put themselves under the law will be cursed by the law.

IF you prayed and followed the guidance of the Spirit, you MIGHT find that God wants you to give FAR MORE than a tenth of your income.

THIS IS VERY UNFORTUNATE, but I have found from my own experience that I can't trust anything said at the pulpit without verifying the accuracy myself. I no longer trust what a pastors says any more than I trust what a used-car salesman says. AND THAT IS VERY SAD INDEED. Nearly everyone trusts their pastor INSTEAD of trusting the Word of God by reading AND STUDYING the Word for themselves. Unless you do a more in-depth study on tithing, you will continue down the wrong path.

 

[jay83]

Actually tithing was food. It was never money.

Thats why it said "give first FRUITS".

You cant give your first fruits of a check or 20 dollar bill.

Heres where manipulation comes. You do not have to tithe. The church is (supposedly) a non-profit organization. Which means they accept donations.

Now, if you go to a church and you like whats going on there. Fine. Feel free to donate WHAT YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE donating. But when the preacher says you have to tithe 10% of your income or God will smite you, that is false.
But if i was a preacher i would probably lie as well, cause negroids are cheap.

But tithing is a misconception. Because there are like 300 laws that they had in the ot, (tattoos, sideburns, eating shrimp, etc.) but the only law the church talks about is tithing.

Galatians 3:10-12
"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

So basically if you decide to follow these OT laws, then you have to follow all of them perfectly or you will be cursed. lol

lol @ churches talking about tithing but then after church go run to the nearest artery clogging fried chicken place. Wasnt "keeping your body a temple" an old testament law.

So if you see your pastor eating shrimp or fried catfish, tell him God will smite him.

 

[GaryArnold]

Actually, Jay83, firstfruits had NOTHING to do with the tithe.

As I previously have shown, the firstfruits were taken to the Temple for the priests while the tithe was taken to the Levites to go into their cities.

Also, Leviticus 27:30-33 says a tenth of the increase of the seed (not the first tenth) and every tenth animal, not the first. Tithing was NEVER the first of anything.

 

[VIBE]

So amidst all this confusion of what and how, how exactly do you tithe? If it's not giving money to the Church, how do you go about it?

 

[GaryArnold]

So amidst all this confusion of what and how, how exactly do you tithe? If it's not giving money to the Church, how do you go about it?

God gave His definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 to be crops and animals raised on the HOLY LAND. Nothing else qualified.

Next, God gave His tithing ordinances in Numbers 18 where He commanded the tithe be taken to the Levites. God NEVER gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe.

It is impossible to pay the Biblical tithe today. That's why the New Testament gives instructions as to how the Christian Church is to be financed - by generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart. NO MORE TITHING. PERIOD.

 

[jay83]

God gave His definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 to be crops and animals raised on the HOLY LAND. Nothing else qualified.

Next, God gave His tithing ordinances in Numbers 18 where He commanded the tithe be taken to the Levites. God NEVER gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe.

It is impossible to pay the Biblical tithe today. That's why the New Testament gives instructions as to how the Christian Church is to be financed - by generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart. NO MORE TITHING. PERIOD.

I'll give you ten dollars if you say that in a local church meeting or service. lol

You'll get ran out of that building.

 

[GaryArnold]

I'll give you ten dollars if you say that in a local church meeting or service. lol

You'll get ran out of that building.

I guess I don't qualify for the ten dollars, but I have said it at a visitors meeting at one church, and I have said it in private meetings with several pastors. One pastor who I thought was the most honest man around first used Matthew 23:23 to show that tithing is valid now. When I said that is Old Testament NOT addressed to Christians, he finally admitted that tithing ended at the cross, BUT he said people just don't want to give so he HAS to teach tithing, robbing God, etc. or there wouldn't be enough money to keep the church doors open.

Two other pastors told me they thought I was wrong, but they would do their own research. Weeks later, BOTH pastors stopped teaching tithing.

Two other pastors just wouldn't even listen to me.

One pastor wanted me to come back to his church and join again. I told him I would come back and visit, but if I did and tithing was brought up at offering time, I would get up and walk out. I asked him if he still wanted me to come back and he didn't reply.

The Bible warns of false teachers. The Bible warns of partaking in false doctrine. I refuse to be a part of any local church that flat out lies to the congregation. Either lies, or the pastor is just plain ignorant. I don't want an ignorant pastor, nor do I want one who lies.

 

[shootemwon]

The only difference between a preacher and a con-artist is their social standing.

 

[GaryArnold]

Since it was close, how about sending me a tenth of the ten dollars?

By the way, in a room filled with visitors to that church, I also told the pastor, in front of everyone, that he was a false teacher, and that he was putting his congregation under the law. His reply: WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE, CAN'T WE?

 

[The Lonious Monk]

God gave His definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 to be crops and animals raised on the HOLY LAND. Nothing else qualified.

Next, God gave His tithing ordinances in Numbers 18 where He commanded the tithe be taken to the Levites. God NEVER gave the Christian Church permission to receive His tithe.

It is impossible to pay the Biblical tithe today. That's why the New Testament gives instructions as to how the Christian Church is to be financed - by generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart. NO MORE TITHING. PERIOD.

I think this is actually a good argument. Maybe it's what you've been saying all along and it just got lost in everything else. I can't say you're totally wrong. All I'll say is that if you are giving that 10% as well as other offerings to your church, and your church in turn uses that money to support the community and spread the Gospel as well as finance itself, then you are indeed following God's laws regardless of your interpretation of the Word.

Also, I still don't agree that all our duties and laws according to the Old Testament just disappeared when Jesus made his sacrifice. Yes, things changed, but it didn't just invalidate all the laws. Jesus said that himself. But I digress from that. I guess that's more of a bone of contention with Christianity as it's practiced now than with you personally.

 

[jay83]

[video=youtube;Wgm8VW-__ow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgm8VW-__ow[/video]

..................................

 

[GaryArnold]

All I'll say is that if you are giving that 10% as well as other offerings to your church, and your church in turn uses that money to support the community and spread the Gospel as well as finance itself, then you are indeed following God's laws regardless of your interpretation of the Word.

When I visit a church (I no longer belong to any church and visit only once in a while), I give what God has put in my heart to give. That might be as little as $1.

The tithe in the Old Testament was NEVER used to finance a church, or to spread the gospel, or for missionary work, etc. The Levitical Tithe, aka The Lord's Tithe, was given to the Levites to keep up The Temple where the Spirit of God lived. The Festival Tithe was a feast where the people consumed the tithe. The Third Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe was for the poor. NO TITHE was used for any church finances or for spreading God's Word.

In Matthew 25:42-45 Jesus tells us that when you give to the needy/poor, you are giving to Him. Jesus NEVER said that when you give to the church you are giving to Him. Actually, when you give to the church, you are giving to man - a building to worship in, air conditioning to keep cool or heat to stay warm, seating, P.A. system to hear the Word better, salaries for pastor, secretary, etc. That benefits YOU. Now, MAYBE a small part actually goes to help the poor, but that would be a very small percentage.

The Bible does teach that we should give where there is a need. IF your church NEEDS more funds, then you should contribute to help fill that need.

We are to be good stewards of 100% of what God gives to us. That means you should know what your church is doing with the funds you give. IF the church leaders are not good stewards of the money collected (and I have NEVER found any church leaders who are good stewards), then you shouldn't give more than a small amount. Pastors will tell you to give and don't worry what they do with the money. That, my friend, goes AGAINST Biblical teaching.

Most of what I give goes directly to families in need. I am, therefore, giving to God by helping others. When I attend church, I give to PAY my fair share. It is really a payment for services received. Paul even said the teacher deserves to be paid even though Paul said he would rather die than sell the gospel.

YOU have a choice - you can be a generous giver, or you can keep the money for yourself. YOUR PASTOR has a choice - he can give his services without pay or he can ask to be paid for his services. Notice how pastors have a double standard - they want to be paid but want you to give. They claim to have given their whole life to The Lord, and then SELL GOD'S WORD! Now tell me, is that GIVING themselves to The Lord, or is it SELLING themselves to The Lord?

 

[Coo Coo Cal's Beanie]

Months ago my pastor invited some nigga to preach. He preached on tithing too. I didnt have a problem with that. I had an issue with him completely twisting scripture to get people to pay money to the church (they're trying to build one). I walked out before he was done. First time i ever did that.