Lets talk about Isreal (Jewish posters please holla)

[MarcusGarvey]

The dickriding has to stop, the political discourse within Israel itself would make Americans uncomfortable. Newspapers like Haaretz have no problem criticizing Netanyahu or the PLO.

Maybe it's time to discuss a 1 state solution, one man/woman one vote.

 

[MarcusGarvey]

The Palestinians aren't innocent in this problem, they shoot themselves in the foot every chance they get, looking at you Hamas, if they had some better leaders maybe they'd have a state but that being said look the West Bank, they've been on their ps and qs and haven't gotten shit but settlements and walling off.

Maybe The West Bank needs to join a confederation with Jordan if Palestinians there want some sovereignty. /rant over

 

[janklow]

How's work?

here we go getting creepy again

Please....what America says and what it is doing are two different things. It says Palestinians deserve a state but allow Israel to build settlements and steal land from any future Palestinian state. It tells Israel to stop doing it but keeps giving Israel the money needed to keep stealing more land. America is one of the biggest hypocrites in the world today.

not really countering what i posted

 

[kingblaze84]

What some fail to realize is these Jews pay to get support. These lobby groups like AIPAC are paying politicians to influence domestic and foreign policy. These people know how to pool their money together and black people should learn that instead of doing all that complaining and begging...

True, Black people could learn a lot from AIPAC....money is respected more then begging and complaining by far lol. We've gotten far in many ways but remain stagnant cuz we're so used to getting success basically by complaining. Time for us to make our own moves.

 

[kingblaze84]

[/quote]Janklow----not really countering what i posted[/quote]

I get that but still, America needs to start backing up its words with actions....how about cutting off all aid to Israel until it learns to stop stealing water and land? And building illegal settlements?

 

[Plutarch]

Why is America so loyal to Israel? I've asked that question many times as well. My general conclusion is that America uses Israel as its one and only special ally and resource in the Middle East (for everything from oil to imperialism to anti-terrorism).

For this reason, America blindly favors Israel in everything she does even though the UN criticizes Israel and even though Israel commits atrocities just as Palestine does. So it's a "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" mentality.

For a long time, I always believed that Israel was an illegal state, but I've done my research and found out that Israel legally became a state and so rightfully desreves to exist as one. But since becoming a state, Israel has done a lot of shady things and need to be held accountable for those actions. And America, of all nations, needs to admit this much. Fortunately, not every American politician is blindly devoted to Israel:


Unfortunately, these politicians are shouted down by brainwashed ignoramuses. Propaganda ftw.

Israel treats Ethiopian/African refugees like shit.. fuck Israel..

goat sig

 

[janklow]

I get that but still, America needs to start backing up its words with actions....how about cutting off all aid to Israel until it learns to stop stealing water and land? And building illegal settlements?

you had an administration that took this position, and then everyone threw it out and put Clinton in there. what can i say

Why is America so loyal to Israel? I've asked that question many times as well.

think about how people lined up during the Cold War. and then that relationship lasts for decades, and here we are now

 

[Plutarch]

Why is America so loyal to Israel? I've asked that question many times as well.

think about how people lined up during the Cold War. and then that relationship lasts for decades, and here we are now

True. But it's much deeper than the influences of the Cold War imo. And btw, not every Cold War alliance has held up. U.S. and Iran were cool back then. Afghanistan is still a battleground between anti-Americanism and pro-Americanism. The Soviet Union even started out supporting Israel during te Cold War.

If America truly believed in freedom and human rights, it wouldn't be so loyal as to ignore Israel's border violations and oppression of her critics. The UN has rightfully criticized Israel. So has the EU, and the EU consists of many of the same Western powers who lined up with Israel during the Cold War. And Russia, an "enemy" of Israel by association, is not a EU member.

 

[janklow]

True. But it's much deeper than the influences of the Cold War imo. And btw, not every Cold War alliance has held up. U.S. and Iran were cool back then. Afghanistan is still a battleground between anti-Americanism and pro-Americanism. The Soviet Union even started out supporting Israel during the Cold War.

i think it's fair to say there was a distinct political change in Iran that caused this which stands out from the average nation in the conversation. Afghanistan being a battleground doesn't really seem to counter what i am saying either.

as for Russia, they were lining up with the Arab nations to vote against Resolution 194 back in 1948, and quickly moved into the role of supplying said nations to fight Israel again and again. this is why you see us wrangling Israel and the USSR wrangling those nations. yeah, they weren't ENEMIES with Israel, but that is what it is.

If America truly believed in freedom and human rights, it wouldn't be so loyal as to ignore Israel's border violations and oppression of her critics.

and thus we come to the debate between idealism and realism

 

[Plutarch]

True. But it's much deeper than the influences of the Cold War imo. And btw, not every Cold War alliance has held up. U.S. and Iran were cool back then. Afghanistan is still a battleground between anti-Americanism and pro-Americanism. The Soviet Union even started out supporting Israel during the Cold War.

i think it's fair to say there was a distinct political change in Iran that caused this which stands out from the average nation in the conversation. Afghanistan being a battleground doesn't really seem to counter what i am saying either.

I agree and disagree; however, the general point that I was making was that we have come a long way since the Cold War. It's possible that I misunderstood you, but imo you seemed to have said that the national alliances that existed during the Cold War have generally lasted to the present. Obviously, Iran is a counter-example. And I cited Afghanistan as well since the U.S., Pakistan, and the Afghans formed a loose alliance to fight off the Soviets back in the day. Today, however, many Afghans are less friendly towards the United States.

I think that it's the same or that it should have been the same with Israel as well. Remember, Israel blew up a U.S. military ship, killing Americans. And what did the U.S. do in response? They basically said, "Oh golly. Well, mistakes happen," and shrugged it off. Israel is also selling technology to China. U.S.'s response? "Could you please not do that, Israel? Pretty please with sugar on top?" And now Israel is violating borders sanctions that were partially influenced by yours truly, the U.S. And so the U.N. and the EU criticizes Israel, yet the U.S. acts sheepish? The shit doesn't make sense, not unless you add my idea that the U.S. uses Israel as its one and only special ally and resource in the Middle East. Israel doesnt need the U.S. anymore. It's the U.S. that apparently needs Israel.

as for Russia, they were lining up with the Arab nations to vote against Resolution 194 back in 1948, and quickly moved into the role of supplying said nations to fight Israel again and again. this is why you see us wrangling Israel and the USSR wrangling those nations. yeah, they weren't ENEMIES with Israel, but that is what it is.

True, but I'm pretty sure that I read that Stalin started out supporting the Zionists. I don't think that Russia has as much to do with why America and Israel are so buddy-buddy as much as, say, Iran has as much to do with why America and Israel are so buddy-buddy. I just brought up Russia because they seemed to have flip-flopped with their stance towards Israel, which is yet another Cold War alliance that changed. But I know. What you said is true. It was the commies vs the capitalists. And Israel wasn't commie, so they came to be on our side. My problem isn't so much why we're on the same side. My problem is why we're so loyal to each other, or rather why the U.S. is so unconditionally loyal to Israel. That weird-ass Bachmann lady called Israel our "biggest ally." Really? Israel is our biggest ally? Not Canada or Britain? But Israel? What has Israel really done for us lately?

If America truly believed in freedom and human rights, it wouldn't be so loyal as to ignore Israel's border violations and oppression of her critics.

and thus we come to the debate between idealism and realism

Ok? Yes, I know the difference, and I'm well-aware of the discrepancy. But a nation should practice what it preaches. America has not and does not practice what it preaches. And this is largely the reason why America is currently in so much trouble.

 

[janklow]

I agree and disagree; however, the general point that I was making was that we have come a long way since the Cold War. It's possible that I misunderstood you, but imo you seemed to have said that the national alliances that existed during the Cold War have generally lasted to the present.

what i am specifically talking about is Israel spending the Cold War being America's buddy and continuing on those lines while the nations around it went more pro-USSR and thus had this extra hurdle in their relationship. Iran is a separate point because it had a major change in government; see also Warsaw Pact nations that broke with THEIR old style of government and became friendly with the West.

I think that it's the same or that it should have been the same with Israel as well. Remember, Israel blew up a U.S. military ship, killing Americans.

remember, this is not an accurate representation of what happened: if nothing else, they did not blow up the ship. they did kill Americans, but then we get into the debate about what happened there, etc, etc.

Israel is also selling technology to China. U.S.'s response? "Could you please not do that, Israel? Pretty please with sugar on top?"

for the record, there's a reason why the US puts Israel up there with Russia and China as nations to watch for espionage and the like.

And now Israel is violating borders sanctions that were partially influenced by yours truly, the U.S. And so the U.N. and the EU criticizes Israel, yet the U.S. acts sheepish? The shit doesn't make sense-

you tend to act "sheepish" regarding your allies as a general rule. hell, North Korea needs China a lot more than China needs NK, but they STILL flout things China asks of them... and then China acts sheepish about it. it happens.

True, but I'm pretty sure that I read that Stalin started out supporting the Zionists.

he may have also been cool with pogroms in the USSR.

That weird-ass Bachmann lady called Israel our "biggest ally." Really? Israel is our biggest ally? Not Canada or Britain? But Israel? What has Israel really done for us lately?

Bachmann is also an idiot hammering this point for domestic political reasons.

Ok? Yes, I know the difference, and I'm well-aware of the discrepancy. But a nation should practice what it preaches.

okay, let's hear this list of nations that DO practice what they preach.

 

[Plutarch]

I agree and disagree; however, the general point that I was making was that we have come a long way since the Cold War. It's possible that I misunderstood you, but imo you seemed to have said that the national alliances that existed during the Cold War have generally lasted to the present.

what i am specifically talking about is Israel spending the Cold War being America's buddy and continuing on those lines while the nations around it went more pro-USSR and thus had this extra hurdle in their relationship. Iran is a separate point because it had a major change in government; see also Warsaw Pact nations that broke with THEIR old style of government and became friendly with the West.

Ok, understood.

I think that it's the same or that it should have been the same with Israel as well. Remember, Israel blew up a U.S. military ship, killing Americans.

remember, this is not an accurate representation of what happened: if nothing else, they did not blow up the ship. they did kill Americans, but then we get into the debate about what happened there, etc, etc.

Fair enough. That might turn this into an entirely different argument.

Israel is also selling technology to China. U.S.'s response? "Could you please not do that, Israel? Pretty please with sugar on top?"

for the record, there's a reason why the US puts Israel up there with Russia and China as nations to watch for espionage and the like.

Nice to have such a great ally. One that we can't even trust as much as we do our biggest rivals. Yet Israel is America's "great" ally?

And now Israel is violating borders sanctions that were partially influenced by yours truly, the U.S. And so the U.N. and the EU criticizes Israel, yet the U.S. acts sheepish? The shit doesn't make sense-

you tend to act "sheepish" regarding your allies as a general rule. hell, North Korea needs China a lot more than China needs NK, but they STILL flout things China asks of them... and then China acts sheepish about it. it happens.

Ok, but that sounds like one of my points that I made. You say that NK needs China a lot more than China needs NK, but why does the U.S. (possibly the greatest power in the world) need Israel more than Israel needs the U.S.?

True, but I'm pretty sure that I read that Stalin started out supporting the Zionists.

he may have also been cool with pogroms in the USSR.

Yeah, well, Stalin was Stalin. But the point I was trying to make about Stalin is irrelevant now.

That weird-ass Bachmann lady called Israel our "biggest ally." Really? Israel is our biggest ally? Not Canada or Britain? But Israel? What has Israel really done for us lately?

Bachmann is also an idiot hammering this point for domestic political reasons.

Bachmann and damn near every politician as well is hammering this point to the extent that Americans honestly believe that Israel is vital to sustain America. Again, why is America and Israel so buddy-buddy, especially when Israel can stand on its own two. America is like the parent who's always trying to hang out with his kid and his kid's friends. Shit is weird. America has no business meddling with Israel and the Middle East.

Ok? Yes, I know the difference, and I'm well-aware of the discrepancy. But a nation should practice what it preaches.

okay, let's hear this list of nations that DO practice what they preach.

I can say Switzerland this and Canada that to a good extent. And even Cuba. The particular case about the United States is that it's now not giving zero fucks about its Constitution or about democracy. And there's very little democracy in the Middle East, so the Middle East doesn't have to care too much about democracy. But that gives the United States the right to not care either?

Again, my main problem is not so much America's alliance with Israel as much as it is America's unconditional support for and "dependence" on Israel. Like I said, unlike America itself, American allies from the U.N. and EU have the balls to criticize Israel. Why not America?

 

[janklow]

Nice to have such a great ally. One that we can't even trust as much as we do our biggest rivals. Yet Israel is America's "great" ally?

whether or not Israel shows us enough respect/consideration is another matter. but then, i thought the question was more "why are they are close ally" as opposed to "what are some reasons they should not be considered such a great ally?"

Ok, but that sounds like one of my points that I made. You say that NK needs China a lot more than China needs NK, but why does the U.S. (possibly the greatest power in the world) need Israel more than Israel needs the U.S.?

i also say that NK needs China more than vice versa, but that doesn't change China's sheepish behavior. when did i argue that the US needs Israel more than the other way around.

Yeah, well, Stalin was Stalin. But the point I was trying to make about Stalin is irrelevant now.

i would think Israel would be one of those nations for whom historical events are never really irrelevant...

Bachmann and damn near every politician as well is hammering this point to the extent that Americans honestly believe that Israel is vital to sustain America.

hello "domestic political reasons"

Again, why is America and Israel so buddy-buddy, especially when Israel can stand on its own two.

wait, why do we state Israel CAN stand on its own two? i think that might actually be debatable.

America has no business meddling with Israel and the Middle East.

why would we say this? America clearly has business in the region, and it leads to what can be called meddling. this applies to a lot of other countries as well.

I can say Switzerland this and Canada that to a good extent. And even Cuba.

Switzerland might qualify on the grounds that they're presumably neutral before all, but i wonder if that's 100% true. i bet Canada doesn't because they help out with something here and there that'd you'd consider violating "what they preach." and Cuba? CUBA? get back to me when the nation isn't run by the Castro brothers.

The particular case about the United States is that it's now not giving zero fucks about its Constitution or about democracy. And there's very little democracy in the Middle East, so the Middle East doesn't have to care too much about democracy.

wait, this started NOW? huh.

Again, my main problem is not so much America's alliance with Israel as much as it is America's unconditional support for and "dependence" on Israel. Like I said, unlike America itself, American allies from the U.N. and EU have the balls to criticize Israel. Why not America?

the ultimate problem here is that you don't think that the US should support Israel to the extent it does. great. but this also means that if someone says "here's why we do," you're not going to agree. so really, you shouldn't ask why America supports Israel, but instead, just make your argument as to why they shouldn't.

 

[kingblaze84]

Zionism is a colonialist/racist/violent ideology and is supported by the United States because of Israel's geopolitical location and access to resources. The United States has a history of supporting oppressive regimes, as long as they can be allies to each other politically and economically.

Also, many Jews who live in Israel today aren't even direct descendants of the original Israelites. Thus, the real conversation is not about whose original "homeland" it is--the question is about power and the establishment of a racial hiearchy and genocide of people who don't fit with Zionist social order.

Bingo.....

 

[janklow]

Because America is 'run' by a large number of powerful rich Zionists.

okay, i was wondering how long it would take us to get to this point.

The United States has a history of supporting oppressive regimes, as long as they can be allies to each other politically and economically.

...just like every other world power of note? SO MUCH SURPRISE IS GOING ON HERE THAT I CAN BARELY STAND IT ALL

 

[janklow]

Your sarcasm doesn't change that fact.

no, but it makes me wonder why people spend so much time fussing about America doing it when it's a concept essentially everyone embraces.

 

[And Step]

Your sarcasm doesn't change that fact.

no, but it makes me wonder why people spend so much time fussing about America doing it when it's a concept essentially everyone embraces.

Is this opinion or fact? Last time I checked very few countries have the global presence or influence of America. Matter of fact, I would dare say there has never been a nation that has had that like America in the history of this world. They not only support it, they influence and put them in place.

 

[janklow]

Last time I checked very few countries have the global presence or influence of America.

America's actions may have a larger impact, but what countries don't support oppressive regimes for their own benefit?

They not only support it, they influence and put them in place.

what significant power hasn't?

 

[kingblaze84]

Your sarcasm doesn't change that fact.

no, but it makes me wonder why people spend so much time fussing about America doing it when it's a concept essentially everyone embraces.

I guess it comes down to the fact most of us here are Americans and expect more of our govt. WHY we expect more, good question, corruption is the American way at this point.

 

[janklow]

I guess it comes down to the fact most of us here are Americans and expect more of our govt.

that's a fair point. usually, however, it comes off not as disappointment, but straightforward opposition.