Lets talk about Isreal (Jewish posters please holla)

[Plutarch]

I guess it comes down to the fact most of us here are Americans and expect more of our govt.

that's a fair point. usually, however, it comes off not as disappointment, but straightforward opposition.

I understand, but why can't it be both or either (including just the latter)? That's something to be both disappointed in and opposed to imo.

 

[Plutarch]

I know it’s been a while but I’ve been meaning to respond so…

Nice to have such a great ally. One that we can't even trust as much as we do our biggest rivals. Yet Israel is America's "great" ally?

whether or not Israel shows us enough respect/consideration is another matter. but then, i thought the question was more "why are they are close ally" as opposed to "what are some reasons they should not be considered such a great ally?"

No, my point is that, at worst, they’re our foes, and at best, they’re very bad allies – so bad that they certainly shouldn’t be our close allies.

Ok, but that sounds like one of my points that I made. You say that NK needs China a lot more than China needs NK, but why does the U.S. (possibly the greatest power in the world) need Israel more than Israel needs the U.S.?

i also say that NK needs China more than vice versa, but that doesn't change China's sheepish behavior. when did i argue that the US needs Israel more than the other way around.

You didn’t make that argument, and it was never my intention to say or imply that you did. I asked the question to you in order to make a potential point to support my argument. My point was that since North Korea (the inferior power) needs China (the superior power), it makes sense for North Korea to latch on to China. However, since Israel (the inferior power) “needs” the United States (the superior power), it would make sense for Israel to latch on to the United States, but imho, I don’t even think Israel really wants or needs America as much as we think. In fact, the roles are reversed. America (the superior power) apparently desperately latches on to Israel (the inferior power). That essentially is odd and nonsensical if you disregard America’s pension for detrimental opportunism. Never mind the fact that Israel can stand on its own two and doesn’t need America. Like I said, America is a mom who is steady trying to hang out with her daughter and her daughter’s friends. And that is odd.

Yeah, well, Stalin was Stalin. But the point I was trying to make about Stalin is irrelevant now.

i would think Israel would be one of those nations for whom historical events are never really irrelevant...

C’mon. I really don’t want to go down this road because it doesn’t even truly address the main argument at hand imo. Let me just clarify. My original point was that Stalin and the Soviet Union initially supported Israel. I made that point to counter your point that America and Israel are allies because they were Cold War allies and that Cold War alliances were apparently so strong and stables that they lasted through the decades to our present times. The fact that the Soviet Union later reversed their support for Israel and the fact that many other alliances (some of which I cited) fell through, at the least, complicates your theory. But all of this is neither here nor there because I doubt that the Soviet Union, communism, and the like have an active role in the present and close alliance between America and Israel. And I doubt that other parts of history and other historical events do either. Israel is cool with Germany today. And Stalin was batshit crazy and didn’t make too much sense half the time, so we can’t just go and say that he was definitively against Israel while disregarding evidence to the contrary. Here’s an insightful article:http://www.marxist.com/israel-stalin-zionism150503.htm

Bachmann and damn near every politician as well is hammering this point to the extent that Americans honestly believe that Israel is vital to sustain America.

hello "domestic political reasons"

Hello false reality. That still doesn’t change the fact that most people (perhaps you as well) think that the close alliance between Israel and America is actually sensible.

 

[Plutarch]

Again, why is America and Israel so buddy-buddy, especially when Israel can stand on its own two.

wait, why do we state Israel CAN stand on its own two? i think that might actually be debatable.

Perhaps that is debatable, but I honestly don’t think so. Israel has received American training (the best) and support/supplies. Israel is nuclear capable. Israel has never lost a war and has destroyed many of its Arab neighbor-enemies (even Iran, the big talker, is scared) throughout several wars and conflicts. This adds up to plenty of experience. Israel has a powerful air force. And most of all, its military is self-sufficient and self-reliant. Shall I even mention the Mossad?

America has no business meddling with Israel and the Middle East.

why would we say this? America clearly has business in the region, and it leads to what can be called meddling. this applies to a lot of other countries as well.

Ok, I disagree. Ok, let me say this: America should have a “normal” and reasonable international relationship with the Middle East as far as standard trading and such go. But the point that you’re missing is that America is an imperialistic nation whose greed is so unbridled that we’re willing to kill innocent civilians and start unnecessary wars for self-benefit like no other nations are doing. Like I said, the U.N., the EU, and many European nations are not doing the same idiotic things that America is doing but are in fact condemning these things and are criticizing Israel. America is special case. You can’t say that other countries are doing the same because that’s not really true. And even if it was true, that doesn’t mean that it’s right (not saying that you’re saying this but you seem to be implying it). Why would it?

I can say Switzerland this and Canada that to a good extent. And even Cuba.

Switzerland might qualify on the grounds that they're presumably neutral before all, but i wonder if that's 100% true. i bet Canada doesn't because they help out with something here and there that'd you'd consider violating "what they preach." and Cuba? CUBA? get back to me when the nation isn't run by the Castro brothers.

I wouldn’t know about Canada, so school me. I’m sure it’s nowhere as bad as America though. I don’t see Canadian troops bombing Pakistan and flying drones around Iran. Ok, Cuba is a bad example. I guess I was just thinking about America’s petty and outdated beef with Cuba – a stupid beef that hurts both nations. When Cuba sends doctors to help you after 9/11, and you refuse them because of a 50 year old grudge, you look stupid and perhaps “un-American?” and Cuba, on the other hand, ends up looking “American” since America is all about being the Superman of the world’s unfortunate (i.e., the world’s unfortunate who reside only in particular areas in the Middle East where there’s oil, and so that excludes Sudan, Kosovo, etc.)

The particular case about the United States is that it's now not giving zero fucks about its Constitution or about democracy. And there's very little democracy in the Middle East, so the Middle East doesn't have to care too much about democracy.

wait, this started NOW? huh.

Let me correct/clarify myself. Not really starting now. Rather just getting worse. Bush was bad, but Obama is just piling on.

Again, my main problem is not so much America's alliance with Israel as much as it is America's unconditional support for and "dependence" on Israel. Like I said, unlike America itself, American allies from the U.N. and EU have the balls to criticize Israel. Why not America?

the ultimate problem here is that you don't think that the US should support Israel to the extent it does. great. but this also means that if someone says "here's why we do," you're not going to agree. so really, you shouldn't ask why America supports Israel, but instead, just make your argument as to why they shouldn't.

But wasn’t the original question about “why America supports Israel?” I have no problems changing the topic to “why America shouldn’t support Israel,” but I was just responding to the original topic.

And I’m willing to listen to any reasonable argument that opposes my stance. I’m a reasonable person, so I’m also willing to change my mind if such an oppositional argument proves to be valid. So I don’t know why you automatically assume that I’m “not going to agree.”

 

[janklow]

I understand, but why can't it be both or either (including just the latter)? That's something to be both disappointed in and opposed to imo.

there is a difference between being disappointed with what America does and having a problem with America, period.

 

[janklow]

No, my point is that, at worst, they’re our foes, and at best, they’re very bad allies – so bad that they certainly shouldn’t be our close allies.

...so again, my point is, i thought the question was, why ARE they our ally, not why are they bad allies.

My point was that since North Korea (the inferior power) needs China (the superior power), it makes sense for North Korea to latch on to China. However, since Israel (the inferior power) “needs” the United States (the superior power), it would make sense for Israel to latch on to the United States, but imho, I don’t even think Israel really wants or needs America as much as we think. In fact, the roles are reversed. America (the superior power) apparently desperately latches on to Israel (the inferior power). That essentially is odd and nonsensical-

again, i think the China/NK example stands. China gets continually embarrassed by NK and yet apparently desperately latches on to NK. that said, i am not sure that i would agree that a) either the US or China behaves DESPERATELY or b) that Israel "can stand on its own two and doesn’t need America."

C’mon. I really don’t want to go down this road because it doesn’t even truly address the main argument at hand imo. Let me just clarify. My original point was that Stalin and the Soviet Union initially supported Israel. I made that point to counter your point that America and Israel are allies because they were Cold War allies and that Cold War alliances were apparently so strong and stables that they lasted through the decades to our present times. The fact that the Soviet Union later reversed their support for Israel and the fact that many other alliances (some of which I cited) fell through, at the least, complicates your theory.

does this article not imply that Stalin's support of Israel was essentially a cynical ploy to gain advantages against Western nations? because if so, i don't know how much that counts. and in fact, it implies that the Cold War alliance is valid: Israel veered toward America because they saw them as a legitimate ally and then kept it up for the duration of the Cold War. even if you think the USSR gets points for the early days, i have a theory that all those wars where Israel fought nations bristling with hardware from the USSR are going to have a bigger effect on Israel's opinion than thinking "once Stalin wasn't shitty to us."

Hello false reality. That still doesn’t change the fact that most people (perhaps you as well) think that the close alliance between Israel and America is actually sensible.

if most people think it's sensible, perhaps domestic politicians comes into play as a reflection of that.

 

[Swiffness!]

The Palestinians aren't innocent in this problem, they shoot themselves in the foot every chance they get

Word. Israel's growing intransigence has made people forget this.

You gotta respect Isreal's gangsta...regardless of their motives. They are not to be fucked with.

I've been saying for years that any Black Nationalist who is serious about that cause of an independent nation *has* to look at Israel as an example. The Zionists wanted a country and they took it. Developed it, built wise alliances, got nukes. They fucked over the Muslims....before the Muslims could fuck them over. All in the game. What do you think it would be like if Black Nationalism actually achieved getting a sovereign nation? You really think we gonna pull that off by being really nice to White People? lol fuuuuuck no. Its gonna be like "We own this land now, YOU GOT TIL SUNDOWN", Khalid Muhammed style. Maybe you could take a page from the Haitian Revolution and let the young white women stay....

If America truly believed in freedom and human rights, it wouldn't be so loyal as to ignore Israel's border violations and oppression of her critics.

and thus we come to the debate between idealism and realism

Ok? Yes, I know the difference, and I'm well-aware of the discrepancy. But a nation should practice what it preaches. America has not and does not practice what it preaches. And this is largely the reason why America is currently in so much trouble.

What's that, you say? The country essentially founded by a slave-owner that obsessed by the concept of liberty has some stark differences between its ideals and its actions? Shocking!

Really, how many countries out there espouse "freedom and human rights" with fully clean hands and no hypocrisy? (I love to hear ppl praise Chavez like he hasn't enthusiastically supported literally every regime threatened by the Arab Spring) Maybe a couple of Europe's smaller socialist democracies? Then on the flip side, every brutal dictatorship ever always talks on ton of shit about how they have so much respect for "human rights". Seriously, even North Korea has the balls to do this. "The great leader General Kim Jong Il said that human rights are the inviolable and inalienable rights of the people in our country" haha, right

America needs to do better, but its always needed to do better. At least it kind of tries though.

 

[janklow]

Perhaps that is debatable, but I honestly don’t think so. Israel has received American training (the best) and support/supplies. Israel is nuclear capable. Israel has never lost a war and has destroyed many of its Arab neighbor-enemies (even Iran, the big talker, is scared) throughout several wars and conflicts. This adds up to plenty of experience. Israel has a powerful air force. And most of all, its military is self-sufficient and self-reliant. Shall I even mention the Mossad?

well...

--Israel receiving American training and support/supplies is not the best argument that Israel is self-sufficient;

--Israel can't really acknowledge that publicly, but being nuclear-capable seems more like a last-ditch resort that something that keeps them truly self-sufficient;

--Israel also has never lost a war because, in at least one case (1973), we directly saved their ass. and while they DO have plenty of experience (which always matters to me), it's actually been quite some time until they kicked some ass in an undisputed way in a war. do i think anyone, to include Iran, really wants to fight them? PROBABLY not, but...

--their air force is awesome, but this is not without its limitations;

--i don't think their military is as self-reliant as you think, considering the amount of hardware they get from us.

But the point that you’re missing is that America is an imperialistic nation whose greed is so unbridled that we’re willing to kill innocent civilians and start unnecessary wars for self-benefit like no other nations are doing.

i guess you mean "like no other nations are doing RIGHT NOW?" of course, we're also saying this like the US is intending to kill innocent civilians (certainly debatable) and that the wars are ONLY for self-benefit.

You can’t say that other countries are doing the same because that’s not really true. And even if it was true, that doesn’t mean that it’s right (not saying that you’re saying this but you seem to be implying it). Why would it?

it doesn't make it right, but it makes me wonder why it's only a problem when the US does it.

I wouldn’t know about Canada, so school me. I’m sure it’s nowhere as bad as America though. I don’t see Canadian troops bombing Pakistan and flying drones around Iran.

well, to start, you bashed the wars the US fights... and Canada is typically there taking part in those wars. their role in Iraq was a little nuanced, but Afghanistan clearly saw a lot of Canadian action. as for drones, well, some of these NATO nations are going to let the US do their work for them.

Ok, Cuba is a bad example. I guess I was just thinking about America’s petty and outdated beef with Cuba – a stupid beef that hurts both nations. When Cuba sends doctors to help you after 9/11, and you refuse them because of a 50 year old grudge, you look stupid and perhaps “un-American?” and Cuba, on the other hand, ends up looking “American” since America is all about being the Superman of the world’s unfortunate (i.e., the world’s unfortunate who reside only in particular areas in the Middle East where there’s oil, and so that excludes Sudan, Kosovo, etc.)

and yet there isn't much actual criticism for Cuban hypocrisy, which was supposedly the point here. also note that i believe Cuba has refused US assistance as well for the same reasons. and do i have to call absolute bullshit on this "the US only helps people where there's oil?" because i am pretty sure we can find plenty of humanitarian missions in non-oil-producing nations. wouldn't want to get in the way of praising Cuba, though!

But wasn’t the original question about “why America supports Israel?” I have no problems changing the topic to “why America shouldn’t support Israel,” but I was just responding to the original topic.

right, and when i say "here's why," your response is typically "but they also do bad things." i presumed from the jump that we all knew Israel did things that make our lives difficult.

 

[MarcusGarvey]

Btw to above Canada never went to Iraq, Chretien told Bush to fuck off. Canada sent troops to Afghanistan though

 

[janklow]

Btw to above Canada never went to Iraq, Chretien told Bush to fuck off. Canada sent troops to Afghanistan though

uh... did you read what i actually posted? their role was nuanced because they did things to assist the US in Iraq (ship escort details, exchange officers involved with American units) while not REALLY committing troops to the war. i grant you that it's fair to say in a broad sense that Canada wasn't in the war, but i am not claiming they were.

 

[Paul Hate.]

What do you mean why?B/c of the amount of jews and the economic influence they have in the U.S. As well wanting some sort of ally or foothold in a oil producing part of the globe.

I beleive in Palestinian statehood but I do support isreal as well.

 

[Paul Hate.]

I say just gives the jews isreal its more important to christians and jews anyways and let palestine have unconditional statehood no UN mandate for 10 years or no one can sell them weapons type crap.Give them jerusalem and let palestine do their thing.If they wanna keep going at after that then so fucking be it.

 

[Cabana_Da_Don]

Let me Tell ya niggas something.Since Canaan was broken down into Judá,Israel.Jerusalem and other little cities niggas been beefing.Since the beginning of time.Let´s stop fronting and acting like that shit was peaceful before the english was there.

 

[Plutarch]

I understand, but why can't it be both or either (including just the latter)? That's something to be both disappointed in and opposed to imo.

there is a difference between being disappointed with what America does and having a problem with America, period.

Ok, I think that I understand what you’re saying. I’m disappointed in America, but I don’t hate America. But I do hate what it is becoming.

No, my point is that, at worst, they’re our foes, and at best, they’re very bad allies – so bad that they certainly shouldn’t be our close allies.

...so again, my point is, i thought the question was, why ARE they our ally, not why are they bad allies.

No, you’re somewhat distorting things. The original question was: why are they are our close allies. You yourself repeated this exact same question to me. The point of the question is to ask why we are so unconditionally supported to Israel. I made the point that they are bad allies. That is relevant to the question at hand. Why have such close and undying allies when they themselves are not so friendly towards us? And that is not mentioning the fact that they can present real hazards to our own safety and well-being.

My point was that since North Korea (the inferior power) needs China (the superior power), it makes sense for North Korea to latch on to China. However, since Israel (the inferior power) “needs” the United States (the superior power), it would make sense for Israel to latch on to the United States, but imho, I don’t even think Israel really wants or needs America as much as we think. In fact, the roles are reversed. America (the superior power) apparently desperately latches on to Israel (the inferior power). That essentially is odd and nonsensical-

again, i think the China/NK example stands. China gets continually embarrassed by NK and yet apparently desperately latches on to NK. that said, i am not sure that i would agree that a) either the US or China behaves DESPERATELY or b) that Israel "can stand on its own two and doesn’t need America."

Ok, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree for now for the sake of sanity? Besides, I’m tired.

C’mon. I really don’t want to go down this road because it doesn’t even truly address the main argument at hand imo. Let me just clarify. My original point was that Stalin and the Soviet Union initially supported Israel. I made that point to counter your point that America and Israel are allies because they were Cold War allies and that Cold War alliances were apparently so strong and stables that they lasted through the decades to our present times. The fact that the Soviet Union later reversed their support for Israel and the fact that many other alliances (some of which I cited) fell through, at the least, complicates your theory.

does this article not imply that Stalin's support of Israel was essentially a cynical ploy to gain advantages against Western nations? because if so, i don't know how much that counts. and in fact, it implies that the Cold War alliance is valid: Israel veered toward America because they saw them as a legitimate ally and then kept it up for the duration of the Cold War. even if you think the USSR gets points for the early days, i have a theory that all those wars where Israel fought nations bristling with hardware from the USSR are going to have a bigger effect on Israel's opinion than thinking "once Stalin wasn't shitty to us."

I agree partly, but I still think that these alliances that we are speaking of are more “flimsy” and coerced than you, I suspect, think. As for Stalin’s influence, if you are speaking of today, I’m not sure that he is as such a bad taste in the mouth of Israel as you, I suspect, think. Israel has generally gotten over Hitler. I think that they can get and may have gotten over Stalin as well.

Hello false reality. That still doesn’t change the fact that most people (perhaps you as well) think that the close alliance between Israel and America is actually sensible.

if most people think it's sensible, perhaps domestic politicians comes into play as a reflection of that.

I doubt it. I think that it’s the other way around. The fact that most (certainly not all) people think that it’s sensible is a reflection of the misinformed and/or disingenuous politicians, pundits, and “journalists” that are telling them that it is sensible.

 

[Plutarch]

If America truly believed in freedom and human rights, it wouldn't be so loyal as to ignore Israel's border violations and oppression of her critics.

and thus we come to the debate between idealism and realism

Ok? Yes, I know the difference, and I'm well-aware of the discrepancy. But a nation should practice what it preaches. America has not and does not practice what it preaches. And this is largely the reason why America is currently in so much trouble.

What's that, you say? The country essentially founded by a slave-owner that obsessed by the concept of liberty has some stark differences between its ideals and its actions? Shocking!

I applaud and appreciate your sarcasm; I really do. But what you are speaking of is more of an oversimplification of America’s history. And this oversimplification is unfortunately a popular belief.

Really, how many countries out there espouse "freedom and human rights" with fully clean hands and no hypocrisy? (I love to hear ppl praise Chavez like he hasn't enthusiastically supported literally every regime threatened by the Arab Spring) Maybe a couple of Europe's smaller socialist democracies? Then on the flip side, every brutal dictatorship ever always talks on ton of shit about how they have so much respect for "human rights". Seriously, even North Korea has the balls to do this. "The great leader General Kim Jong Il said that human rights are the inviolable and inalienable rights of the people in our country" haha, right

I never said “fully clean and hypocrisy.” That’s impossible. I’m not sure about Venezuela, but I’m sure about North Korea. But as for the United States of America, I hold my country to higher standards, in part because I know that these are standards that can and have been met, at least, at times.

America needs to do better, but its always needed to do better. At least it kind of tries though.

Doesn’t try hard enough imo.

Perhaps that is debatable, but I honestly don’t think so. Israel has received American training (the best) and support/supplies. Israel is nuclear capable. Israel has never lost a war and has destroyed many of its Arab neighbor-enemies (even Iran, the big talker, is scared) throughout several wars and conflicts. This adds up to plenty of experience. Israel has a powerful air force. And most of all, its military is self-sufficient and self-reliant. Shall I even mention the Mossad?

well...

--Israel receiving American training and support/supplies is not the best argument that Israel is self-sufficient;

--Israel can't really acknowledge that publicly, but being nuclear-capable seems more like a last-ditch resort that something that keeps them truly self-sufficient;

--Israel also has never lost a war because, in at least one case (1973), we directly saved their ass. and while they DO have plenty of experience (which always matters to me), it's actually been quite some time until they kicked some ass in an undisputed way in a war. do i think anyone, to include Iran, really wants to fight them? PROBABLY not, but...

--their air force is awesome, but this is not without its limitations;

--i don't think their military is as self-reliant as you think, considering the amount of hardware they get from us.

--Israel has received American training and support/supplies. Their training wheels came off a long time ago. Presently, I think that they are self-sufficient.

--We’re going to have to disagree. I think that the fact that Israel is nuclear-capable (presumably) means that it has reached the status of being a major world power, but even without it, I think they are more than capable of defeating the likes of Iran. I think that Israel’s nuclear-capability is more of a deterrent (as in “you don’t want to go to war with us”) than an actual doomsday weapon to use as a last resort if that is what you are saying.

But the point that you’re missing is that America is an imperialistic nation whose greed is so unbridled that we’re willing to kill innocent civilians and start unnecessary wars for self-benefit like no other nations are doing.

i guess you mean "like no other nations are doing RIGHT NOW?" of course, we're also saying this like the US is intending to kill innocent civilians (certainly debatable) and that the wars are ONLY for self-benefit.

Right now? Yes. Canada seems to be content with not meddling in the Middle East. And surprise, surprise, Canada doesn’t have to deal with its own 9/11. Perhaps these two facts are linked? I’m neither saying nor believing that the U.S. intends to kill innocent civilians, but I am repulsed and shocked that we are tbh. The wars are not only for self-benefit? Ok that’s certainly plausible. Ok, how about: the wars are mostly for self-benefit?

 

[Plutarch]

You can’t say that other countries are doing the same because that’s not really true. And even if it was true, that doesn’t mean that it’s right (not saying that you’re saying this but you seem to be implying it). Why would it?

it doesn't make it right, but it makes me wonder why it's only a problem when the US does it.

It isn’t and shouldn’t be a problem only when the United States does it (a similar criticism is shared against France and what they are doing in Mali currently), but I guess that we are “scapegoated” not only because we are the major power of the world but also because we’re conspicuously and repeatedly all over the Middle East with a Superman cape on even though we play the super villain as well.

I wouldn’t know about Canada, so school me. I’m sure it’s nowhere as bad as America though. I don’t see Canadian troops bombing Pakistan and flying drones around Iran.

well, to start, you bashed the wars the US fights... and Canada is typically there taking part in those wars. their role in Iraq was a little nuanced, but Afghanistan clearly saw a lot of Canadian action. as for drones, well, some of these NATO nations are going to let the US do their work for them.

It almost seems as if you are downplaying the fact that their role in Iraq was “a little nuanced.” Canada is not as war-hawkish as America, and as long as they stay smart, they will never be. We apparently can’t realize that it only unnecessarily hurts us in the long run. Canada would’ve never committed troops to fight and die in America’s rash and contrived war. I chalk Canada’s strong presence in Afghanistan up to the whole 9/11 wave that was going on during the time. How would Canada look like not supporting its closest ally immediately after the tragic event of 9/11? Pretty bad. About NATO, I wouldn’t know too much about that.

Ok, Cuba is a bad example. I guess I was just thinking about America’s petty and outdated beef with Cuba – a stupid beef that hurts both nations. When Cuba sends doctors to help you after 9/11, and you refuse them because of a 50 year old grudge, you look stupid and perhaps “un-American?” and Cuba, on the other hand, ends up looking “American” since America is all about being the Superman of the world’s unfortunate (i.e., the world’s unfortunate who reside only in particular areas in the Middle East where there’s oil, and so that excludes Sudan, Kosovo, etc.)

and yet there isn't much actual criticism for Cuban hypocrisy, which was supposedly the point here. also note that i believe Cuba has refused US assistance as well for the same reasons. and do i have to call absolute bullshit on this "the US only helps people where there's oil?" because i am pretty sure we can find plenty of humanitarian missions in non-oil-producing nations. wouldn't want to get in the way of praising Cuba, though!

Ok then, I stand corrected. Fuck Cuba. If I ever said that America helps those who have oil, I probably meant that America actively fights for those who have oil. If I am wrong here as well, please educate me (no sarcasm).

But wasn’t the original question about “why America supports Israel?” I have no problems changing the topic to “why America shouldn’t support Israel,” but I was just responding to the original topic.

right, and when i say "here's why," your response is typically "but they also do bad things." i presumed from the jump that we all knew Israel did things that make our lives difficult.

Now you’re just oversimplifying my argument. It’s not just that Israel does “bad things,” which is obvious, especially since all countries do bad things to some extent. I have also mentioned various other more important ideas/facts that suggest or explain that Israel is not a suitable close and unconditional American ally. Apparently you’ve already forgotten them?

 

[janklow]

No, you’re somewhat distorting things. The original question was: why are they are our close allies. You yourself repeated this exact same question to me. The point of the question is to ask why we are so unconditionally supported to Israel. I made the point that they are bad allies.

i'm just going to say it again: if you ask why they're our allies, i am going to give you reasons why that's the case (see above). i don't think i said i was going to defend them against every claim or even that i rate them as such a great ally. in fact, if you're reading this thread i don't know why you think i am arguing the latter.

Ok, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree for now for the sake of sanity? Besides, I’m tired.

i mean, you're revisiting this almost a couple of weeks later; you COULD just let it go.

I agree partly, but I still think that these alliances that we are speaking of are more “flimsy” and coerced than you, I suspect, think. As for Stalin’s influence, if you are speaking of today, I’m not sure that he is as such a bad taste in the mouth of Israel as you, I suspect, think. Israel has generally gotten over Hitler. I think that they can get and may have gotten over Stalin as well.

the point that i made/am making is that when you have that kind of relationship for decades, it ends up meaning something. it's not that Israel isn't "over Stalin": i'm sitting here talking about what the post-Stalin USSR did for decades and you're telling me "well, once Stalin was their friend." but this is not actually about Stalin.

I doubt it. I think that it’s the other way around. The fact that most (certainly not all) people think that it’s sensible is a reflection of the misinformed and/or disingenuous politicians, pundits, and “journalists” that are telling them that it is sensible.

of course, journalists and pundits aren't politicians. so if they get people worked up in one direction or another, people may respond to that. what a concept!

 

[janklow]

--Israel has received American training and support/supplies. Their training wheels came off a long time ago. Presently, I think that they are self-sufficient.

changing it to the past tense is, in fact, incorrect. Israel CURRENTLY RECEIVES American support and supplies. see also: all that aid people are going to bitch about, and what it gets spent on.

--We’re going to have to disagree. I think that the fact that Israel is nuclear-capable (presumably) means that it has reached the status of being a major world power, but even without it, I think they are more than capable of defeating the likes of Iran. I think that Israel’s nuclear-capability is more of a deterrent (as in “you don’t want to go to war with us”) than an actual doomsday weapon to use as a last resort if that is what you are saying.

first off, being nuclear-capable does not make you a major world power. North Korea is not a major world power. Pakistan is not a major world power. and there are other countries who probably could make themselves nuclear-capable if they REALLY wanted to.

second, i am not calling it a doomsday weapon. what i am saying is that Israel's unadmitted nuclear weapons are basically meant to imply to people "even if you can destroy us through some means and you REALLY want to do it regardless of the cost, we'll still be able to get you with nuclear weapons almost from beyond the grave." but what i am also saying is that they can't use a nuclear weapon to solve every single problem they have, which is why having a nuclear weapon doesn't make you self-sufficient.

and what makes you so convinced they're so capable of defeating Iran? they could barely handle LEBANON. i don't think Iran wants to fight a war with them because it's a cost/benefit thing. but Israel's not going to whip their ass in six days.

Right now? Yes. Canada seems to be content with not meddling in the Middle East. And surprise, surprise, Canada doesn’t have to deal with its own 9/11. Perhaps these two facts are linked? I’m neither saying nor believing that the U.S. intends to kill innocent civilians, but I am repulsed and shocked that we are tbh. The wars are not only for self-benefit? Ok that’s certainly plausible. Ok, how about: the wars are mostly for self-benefit?

my "right now" point is the way you make it seem like only the US has EVER done this stuff. but consider again that countries like Canada don't meddle in the Middle East because the US is there meddling for them. and hey, if NATO gets pulled into something -let's say, defending Turkey if some Syrian fiasco goes down- then you might just have Canada.

wars are always going to have something to do with self-benefit. but i think it's pretty convenient for everyone to ascribe the worst possible motivations to people/countries when that happens to dovetail with their arguments.

 

[janklow]

It isn’t and shouldn’t be a problem only when the United States does it (a similar criticism is shared against France and what they are doing in Mali currently), but I guess that we are “scapegoated” not only because we are the major power of the world but also because we’re conspicuously and repeatedly all over the Middle East with a Superman cape on even though we play the super villain as well.

in this case, i am talking less about international opinion and more about people raging about America from America on the internet. you can always find SOMETHING to legitimately criticize about things America (or anyone else) does.

I wouldn’t know about Canada, so school me. I’m sure it’s nowhere as bad as America though. I don’t see Canadian troops bombing Pakistan and flying drones around Iran.

well, to start, you bashed the wars the US fights... and Canada is typically there taking part in those wars. their role in Iraq was a little nuanced, but Afghanistan clearly saw a lot of Canadian action. as for drones, well, some of these NATO nations are going to let the US do their work for them.

It almost seems as if you are downplaying the fact that their role in Iraq was “a little nuanced.” Canada is not as war-hawkish as America, and as long as they stay smart, they will never be. We apparently can’t realize that it only unnecessarily hurts us in the long run. Canada would’ve never committed troops to fight and die in America’s rash and contrived war. I chalk Canada’s strong presence in Afghanistan up to the whole 9/11 wave that was going on during the time. How would Canada look like not supporting its closest ally immediately after the tragic event of 9/11? Pretty bad. About NATO, I wouldn’t know too much about that.

i'm not "downplaying" it, i'm presenting it like it is. it's nuanced because they did things that ultimately assisted us in prosecuting the war without sending all the men directly to the war like we did. you might say this counts as them sitting it out, but this is why i call it "nuanced" as opposed to cut and dry. and yes, they DID have military personnel in Iraq in various units who could have fought and died. whoops!

plus, don't tell me that i'm downplaying their nuanced role and then say, "eh, 9/11 9/11." the US bombs Pakistan because of 9/11, but it's a Big Fucking Deal that the US does this. but Canada's nicer, so who cares? the question was if Canada "violates what they preach" by taking part in the war in Afghanistan. don't wave it away because you want to give Canada a pass.

the NATO point is simply this: of the member nations, the US brings a lot more to the table than most (if not all) of them. sometimes this means they ride for free on our largesse. i have no doubt that these drones, for whatever reason they get flown, benefit NATO as a whole on some level.

Ok then, I stand corrected. Fuck Cuba. If I ever said that America helps those who have oil, I probably meant that America actively fights for those who have oil. If I am wrong here as well, please educate me (no sarcasm).

i'm not convinced Afghanistan is filled with oil.

Apparently you’ve already forgotten them?

apparently you've forgotten that we both know this, so i'm not defending the bad actions, i'm explaining why they might be our ally in SPITE of them? i thought that was the point.

 

[janklow]

(I love to hear ppl praise Chavez like he hasn't enthusiastically supported literally every regime threatened by the Arab Spring)

since he's just died, i'd like to shout this quote out: i know some people who seem oddly impressed with Chavez and yet are simultaneously huge fans of the Arab Spring. i just shake my damn head.

 

[kingblaze84]

http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...-forces-spray-raw-sewage-at-palestinian-homes

Israeli security forces spray raw sewage at Palestinian homes

Israeli forces have sprayed Palestinian homes in the village of Nabi Saleh with raw sewage as a punishment for organising weekly protests against the Apartheid Wall built on occupied West Bank land. Human rights watchdog B'Tselem published a video showing Israel's armoured tanker trucks fitted with "water cannons" which spray the foul fluid at Palestinian protesters.

B'Tselem said in a statement that the Israeli forces also targeted all the houses of the village with the sewage. The powerful jet broke windows and caused a great deal of damage in the houses, said the Israeli organisation. "It also causes environmental damage," it pointed out. The non-lethal weapon has been added to the Israelis' armoury for crowd control, said B'Tselem, even though the video shows clearly that it is also used against Palestinian-owned property.

The Israeli military has been looking for an alternative to tear gas canisters for crowd control, claiming that the Palestinians now know how to cope with the gas and its effects.

--Israel continues to be run by terrorists.