Iran’s Agony in Syria

[janklow]

ISIS is already using those tanks in Syria AND Iraq. They're occupying Syrian towns and Iraqi cities with those tanks.

to be fair, does that include SCUDs?

once America made the foolish choice to get involved in Iraq we should never have left until it was running the way we wanted it too and even then we should never have fully left until much later, after we had made a cultural impact on the general beliefs of the population. America did not fully pull out of japan until 1972

while i know you're saying 1972 in a military occupation sense, we DO still have 50000-some troops in Japan currently.

You do realize America has been hated in the Middle East since the 60s, if not before right?

sort of overstating this a little; opinion ebbs and flows and blah blah blah

--So Zombie.....you wanna create another ISIS group? Then go right on ahead, and give those terrorists I mean moderate rebels millions of dollars in aid and guns. And let's see those same rebel groups turn against America, as usual. Your ideas of arming the "moderate rebels" will only benefit ISIS, as ISIS is a clever enemy....they have people on the ground who speak English and can pretend to not be extremists. And Caliph Ibrahim will enjoy even more weapons and money, thanks to Americans who don't realize how hated they are in the region and that Assad is really not the bad guy here.

one, let's get a better source. two, i don't think this is as simple as "ISIS guys spoke English and fooled the Americans like Bugs Bunny in a cartoon." three... Assad IS a bad guy. now, in balance you might say fuck it, you're more comfortable with him than ISIS, so... but let's not call him not a bad guy.

 

[kingblaze84]

@kingblaze84 this is what your solution comes down to

we should just leave iran alone let them do what the fuck they want to do.

we should just leave isis alone let them do what the fuck they want to do.

we should just leave Russia alone let it do what the fuck they want to do.

all three especially iran and isis are long term threats, two are control by religious extremism that ultimately cannot be reasoned with, RUSSIA is our traditional opponent if they gain influence in the region it can create another proxy war between them and us or worse when Israel starts getting scared they bomb some muslim nation and there you go full on war in the middle east.

What my solution in essence is saying is BE REALISTIC. The Avengers aren't coming to the rescue. Spiderman and Captain America aren't gonna be battling ISIS for us, while Storm and Wonder Woman battle Assad on the side.

America's hands are almost tied at this point, barring ISIS directly attacking America of course. The American military CANNOT even take care of the many wounded we have from the Iraq and Afghan wars, and stepping into a huge battle front against the richest terror group in history is no way to make treating our wounded soldiers any easier. Notice even John Mccain, the biggest warhawk in America, is quiet now when it comes to taking on ISIS in Syria. He knows how powerful they are there and that this is not the time to jump into another conflict. You want one side to win in Syria first before we take on another side, well that kinda sounds good but the problem is you still want Assad taken down, when he's fighting the same groups you hate. Why take down secular Assad, who at the least is not an extremist?

Your fear of Israel using nukes in the region is reasonable, as pretty much no one trusts apartheid Israel. So if anything, shouldn't you be advocating for the removal of Israeli leadership? Because frankly, Israel is one of the main reasons America is so hated in that part of the world.

 

[kingblaze84]

@Janklow,

Aside from Assad being a dictator and probably an oppressive one to radicals in his nation, exactly how is Assad a bad guy? I'm no fan of his but I think most of us here would agree, including yourself, that it's better he's in charge compared to ISIS. At least Assad is a secular ruler who won't let an oppressive Shariah law system rule the people. True he hates America but again, it's not a surprise considering all the extreme evil America lets Israel get away with, and supports with American taxpayer dollars.

 

[kingblaze84]

@‌Zombie,

We're in FULL agreement radical Islam is a huge problem in the world, our main disagreement is how much you want America to be involved in stopping it. At this time, America is psychologically wounded by all the American dead, wounded, and how expensive the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have been. More then that, we've realized just how hated America is there and we do not want to sacrifice more lives and treasure against Middle Eastern nations or groups UNLESS they actively attack us. America makes problems worst in the Middle East by being the Great Satan, which we truly are if one does research in what America has done there. Google white phosphorous and plutonium effects on Iraqi children there, and how American bombs spread that problem. It's a huge problem in Iraq, many Iraqi kids are born deformed and with cancer, thanks to Americans bombing the nation with the plutonium. ISIS even made a video on it, a video I'm SURE increased recruitment.

As someone who hates radical Islam, I'm thankful Russian planes, Iranian soldiers and Syria's govt are fighting the radicals head on. Let's give them a chance to win that fight before America the Great Satan gets involved and ISIS gets MORE sympathy because the Great Satan once again bombs and kills men, women and children in the thousands. America is NOT LIKED in the region, and therefore we have to stay away from it, for as long as possible. Until then, America is better off letting Iran gain more influence because let's face it, America getting involved in ANYTHING in that region will ONLY increase terrorism.

Your strategy would BY FAR increase the hatred and terrorism against America. My strategy, which is being enacted by Obama THANK GOD, is to lay low and be humble. If ISIS is so scary to you, write letters to NATO nations like Italy and Germany and ask them to do something. America is tapped out for now, we only make problems worse there, not better.....

 

[zombie]

@kingblaze84 this is what your solution comes down to

we should just leave iran alone let them do what the fuck they want to do.

we should just leave isis alone let them do what the fuck they want to do.

we should just leave Russia alone let it do what the fuck they want to do.

all three especially iran and isis are long term threats, two are control by religious extremism that ultimately cannot be reasoned with, RUSSIA is our traditional opponent if they gain influence in the region it can create another proxy war between them and us or worse when Israel starts getting scared they bomb some muslim nation and there you go full on war in the middle east.

What my solution in essence is saying is BE REALISTIC. The Avengers aren't coming to the rescue. Spiderman and Captain America aren't gonna be battling ISIS for us, while Storm and Wonder Woman battle Assad on the side.

America's hands are almost tied at this point, barring ISIS directly attacking America of course. The American military CANNOT even take care of the many wounded we have from the Iraq and Afghan wars, and stepping into a huge battle front against the richest terror group in history is no way to make treating our wounded soldiers any easier. Notice even John Mccain, the biggest warhawk in America, is quiet now when it comes to taking on ISIS in Syria. He knows how powerful they are there and that this is not the time to jump into another conflict. You want one side to win in Syria first before we take on another side, well that kinda sounds good but the problem is you still want Assad taken down, when he's fighting the same groups you hate. Why take down secular Assad, who at the least is not an extremist?

Your fear of Israel using nukes in the region is reasonable, as pretty much no one trusts apartheid Israel. So if anything, shouldn't you be advocating for the removal of Israeli leadership? Because frankly, Israel is one of the main reasons America is so hated in that part of the world.

Nothing we do or don't do it going to stop those who hate us from hating us, therefore fuck their feeling we have to do what is in our long term benefit. Our hands are not tied the people who underestimate the enemy and what they are really after say that. you keep bring up wounded soliders what the fuck for? us not treating them the way we should will not change if we go back to war or not, the two issues are not connected. assad will have to go because at this point there is no saving him, no more compromise with these people . like I keep saying we have to rule these people outright until they come to the understand that radical islam cannot win physical battles against us.

I don't blame Israel for half of the shit that they do they are surrounded by muslims and no matter what the Israeli leadership does it is a religious commandment for muslims to fight them. so the war will never end only cool down.

Israel has a small jewish population compared to the muslims that surround them, what do you expect Israel to do give the arabs full citizenship? in one generation Israel would be gone.

 

[kingblaze84]

@kingblaze84 this is what your solution comes down to

we should just leave iran alone let them do what the fuck they want to do.

we should just leave isis alone let them do what the fuck they want to do.

we should just leave Russia alone let it do what the fuck they want to do.

all three especially iran and isis are long term threats, two are control by religious extremism that ultimately cannot be reasoned with, RUSSIA is our traditional opponent if they gain influence in the region it can create another proxy war between them and us or worse when Israel starts getting scared they bomb some muslim nation and there you go full on war in the middle east.

What my solution in essence is saying is BE REALISTIC. The Avengers aren't coming to the rescue. Spiderman and Captain America aren't gonna be battling ISIS for us, while Storm and Wonder Woman battle Assad on the side.

America's hands are almost tied at this point, barring ISIS directly attacking America of course. The American military CANNOT even take care of the many wounded we have from the Iraq and Afghan wars, and stepping into a huge battle front against the richest terror group in history is no way to make treating our wounded soldiers any easier. Notice even John Mccain, the biggest warhawk in America, is quiet now when it comes to taking on ISIS in Syria. He knows how powerful they are there and that this is not the time to jump into another conflict. You want one side to win in Syria first before we take on another side, well that kinda sounds good but the problem is you still want Assad taken down, when he's fighting the same groups you hate. Why take down secular Assad, who at the least is not an extremist?

Your fear of Israel using nukes in the region is reasonable, as pretty much no one trusts apartheid Israel. So if anything, shouldn't you be advocating for the removal of Israeli leadership? Because frankly, Israel is one of the main reasons America is so hated in that part of the world.

Nothing we do or don't do it going to stop those who hate us from hating us, therefore fuck their feeling we have to do what is in our long term benefit. Our hands are not tied the people who underestimate the enemy and what they are really after say that. you keep bring up wounded soliders what the fuck for? us not treating them the way we should will not change if we go back to war or not, the two issues are not connected. assad will have to go because at this point there is no saving him, no more compromise with these people . like I keep saying we have to rule these people outright until they come to the understand that radical islam cannot win physical battles against us.

I don't blame Israel for half of the shit that they do they are surrounded by muslims and no matter what the Israeli leadership does it is a religious commandment for muslims to fight them. so the war will never end only cool down.

Israel has a small jewish population compared to the muslims that surround them, what do you expect Israel to do give the arabs full citizenship? in one generation Israel would be gone.

Our long term benefit is NOT bombing or waging war in Syria now because it would INCREASE terrorism and INCREASE the problem that's already there. You gotta understand America is NOT the one to wage this fight. We can help, but that's it. It's like the KKK being the ones to tackle Black crime in inner cities. Would you or any other Black person respect the moral authority of the KKK, even if they would want to lower Black shootings or killings? Hell no, we don't respect the KKK, even if they did want to do some positive. That's exactly how it is with America being involved in the Middle East, we're looked upon as enemies and devils. It's why Iran said America should not get involved in Syria, America has a poisonous aura around itself in that region and it would only increase tensions btw the Muslim world and America. You want some more people terrorizing America, committing another 9/11 style attack? Better to let less radical nations or secular ones like Assad handle it, remember Assad has the advantage on the ground according to most sources. ISIS has only about 30% of Syria, Assad has maybe 60% based on stories I've read. We're better off helping Assad, what is your beef with him??? Stop letting conservative media control your mind, I bet even Obama doesn't know why he hates Assad.

As far as Israel, research how Israel was founded. Once you do so, and realize about a million Palestinians were kicked off their land to found Israel, you'll see it's bigger then religion. Remember, Jews historically were treated like shit in Europe and kicked out of every European country historically. That's right, every single one. Muslims for a long time were the only ones who tolerated Jews, and they repaid that by kicking out a million Palestinians from their homes to create the nation Israel lol. Israel also refuses to have a right of return for the many refugees who were kicked out, so personally I say to hell with Israel. If Israel does commit a nuke attack as you fear, that should be more reason to take out Israeli leadership or stop supporting them.

 

[janklow]

Aside from Assad being a dictator and probably an oppressive one to radicals in his nation, exactly how is Assad a bad guy?

uh... didn't you just make this case for me? he runs a police state that tortures and kills its enemies. you can't cosign that.

I'm no fan of his but I think most of us here would agree, including yourself, that it's better he's in charge compared to ISIS. At least Assad is a secular ruler who won't let an oppressive Shariah law system rule the people.

the most i can grant Assad is that he's not as likely to direct terrorism at US interests. but it's still a country that, under Assad, IS suspected/known (you choose the word) to have directed international terrorism. can i choose a third option?

 

[kingblaze84]

Aside from Assad being a dictator and probably an oppressive one to radicals in his nation, exactly how is Assad a bad guy?

uh... didn't you just make this case for me? he runs a police state that tortures and kills its enemies. you can't cosign that.

I'm no fan of his but I think most of us here would agree, including yourself, that it's better he's in charge compared to ISIS. At least Assad is a secular ruler who won't let an oppressive Shariah law system rule the people.

the most i can grant Assad is that he's not as likely to direct terrorism at US interests. but it's still a country that, under Assad, IS suspected/known (you choose the word) to have directed international terrorism. can i choose a third option?

I don't co-sign the bad things Assad does but he's still better then ISIS or some other random Islamist group.

I am also aware Assad has supported Hezbollah and Hamas but again, almost everyone in that region hates Israel and supports the same groups. There is plenty of evidence American allies such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait have princes and govt officials who support militant groups too, and I don't see America whining about those nations. I've never heard of Assad supporting Al-Qaeda, and as we all know, Assad is fighting Al-Qaeda and ISIS on the ground. I say let Assad stay in power, I don't see any good 3rd options out there.

 

[janklow]

I don't co-sign the bad things Assad does but he's still better then ISIS or some other random Islamist group.

"can i choose a third option?"

I am also aware Assad has supported Hezbollah and Hamas but again, almost everyone in that region hates Israel and supports the same groups.

HAS supported? because there's a reason why Hezbollah guys were getting killed in Syria.

There is plenty of evidence American allies such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait have princes and govt officials who support militant groups too, and I don't see America whining about those nations.

i don't know; i read a little and i can find times when people bitch about them. but the distinction is probably that the government sometimes tries not to blast allies on the front page of the paper about that kind of thing.

I've never heard of Assad supporting Al-Qaeda, and as we all know, Assad is fighting Al-Qaeda and ISIS on the ground. I say let Assad stay in power, I don't see any good 3rd options out there.

if you want to play the 100% realist game, i get the idea of letting Assad stay in power. and it's already a situation where the administration has kind of fucked up the optics of the situation, what with their "red lines" and all, so perhaps muddling through to a situation where he stays wouldn't be impossible.

...but for a guy who talks about people hating on the US for their foreign policy choices, you can maybe see there's an issue with the US saying, "cool, Assad can stay."

 

[kingblaze84]

I don't co-sign the bad things Assad does but he's still better then ISIS or some other random Islamist group.

"can i choose a third option?"

I am also aware Assad has supported Hezbollah and Hamas but again, almost everyone in that region hates Israel and supports the same groups.

HAS supported? because there's a reason why Hezbollah guys were getting killed in Syria.

There is plenty of evidence American allies such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait have princes and govt officials who support militant groups too, and I don't see America whining about those nations.

i don't know; i read a little and i can find times when people bitch about them. but the distinction is probably that the government sometimes tries not to blast allies on the front page of the paper about that kind of thing.

I've never heard of Assad supporting Al-Qaeda, and as we all know, Assad is fighting Al-Qaeda and ISIS on the ground. I say let Assad stay in power, I don't see any good 3rd options out there.

if you want to play the 100% realist game, i get the idea of letting Assad stay in power. and it's already a situation where the administration has kind of fucked up the optics of the situation, what with their "red lines" and all, so perhaps muddling through to a situation where he stays wouldn't be impossible.

...but for a guy who talks about people hating on the US for their foreign policy choices, you can maybe see there's an issue with the US saying, "cool, Assad can stay."

Well that's the thing, so far, there really aren't any good 3rd options. I wish there was a fair election in 2014 there, and most observers agree Assad won a sham election. In a perfect world, Assad would step down and let someone else take charge.

But since this is the Middle East, that's asking too much. America maybe shouldn't say out loud "Assad can stay" but should more or less not push him out either. I understand Sunni nations aren't crazy about Assad but the reality in Syria is a sad one, and Russia and Iran are firmly backing Assad. Realistically, Assad is the least bad out of bad options. I bet most Iraqis now wish Saddam stayed in power, look at the disaster it is now. As shocking as this may sound, Syria is probably in better shape then Iraq.

 

[janklow]

But since this is the Middle East, that's asking too much. America maybe shouldn't say out loud "Assad can stay" but should more or less not push him out either. I understand Sunni nations aren't crazy about Assad but the reality in Syria is a sad one, and Russia and Iran are firmly backing Assad. Realistically, Assad is the least bad out of bad options. I bet most Iraqis now wish Saddam stayed in power, look at the disaster it is now. As shocking as this may sound, Syria is probably in better shape then Iraq.

the thing is, i don't think most people wish guys like Saddam or Assad stay in power. they probably have much stronger feelings about "i wish our country wasn't fucked up," but a guy like Saddam... maybe there's an abstract "eh, things were better under him," but i feel like that's a little different than longing for Saddam.

ANYWAY

to be 100% mercenary about it... perhaps the best outcome would be to let Russia/Iran get what they want on Assad in exchange for what we want on another front.

 

[kingblaze84]

But since this is the Middle East, that's asking too much. America maybe shouldn't say out loud "Assad can stay" but should more or less not push him out either. I understand Sunni nations aren't crazy about Assad but the reality in Syria is a sad one, and Russia and Iran are firmly backing Assad. Realistically, Assad is the least bad out of bad options. I bet most Iraqis now wish Saddam stayed in power, look at the disaster it is now. As shocking as this may sound, Syria is probably in better shape then Iraq.

the thing is, i don't think most people wish guys like Saddam or Assad stay in power. they probably have much stronger feelings about "i wish our country wasn't fucked up," but a guy like Saddam... maybe there's an abstract "eh, things were better under him," but i feel like that's a little different than longing for Saddam.

ANYWAY

to be 100% mercenary about it... perhaps the best outcome would be to let Russia/Iran get what they want on Assad in exchange for what we want on another front.

I'm all for letting Iran and Russia protect Assad....what exchange are you looking for exactly? Assad demolishing his chemical weapons and Iran dismantling it's nuclear program?

 

[janklow]

I'm all for letting Iran and Russia protect Assad....what exchange are you looking for exactly? Assad demolishing his chemical weapons and Iran dismantling it's nuclear program?

what i'm saying is, first off, we have to realistically say, "okay, we're willing to fuck over Syrians on some level to get a benefit somewhere else out of the deal." because you know the US's failure to stand by previously-promoted ideals will get immediately called out.

second, what i'd say is, let Iran or Russia bring something to the table and go from there. i don't think, for example, Iran goes "okay, no nukes if we can fuck around in Syria," but i imagine having influence in the region actually negates a lot of the reason you WOULD want nuclear weapons.

that or you basically just try and play this game to force a difference of opinion between Russia and Iran and make them a less unified support system in the region.

 

[kingblaze84]

I'm all for letting Iran and Russia protect Assad....what exchange are you looking for exactly? Assad demolishing his chemical weapons and Iran dismantling it's nuclear program?

what i'm saying is, first off, we have to realistically say, "okay, we're willing to fuck over Syrians on some level to get a benefit somewhere else out of the deal." because you know the US's failure to stand by previously-promoted ideals will get immediately called out.

second, what i'd say is, let Iran or Russia bring something to the table and go from there. i don't think, for example, Iran goes "okay, no nukes if we can fuck around in Syria," but i imagine having influence in the region actually negates a lot of the reason you WOULD want nuclear weapons.

that or you basically just try and play this game to force a difference of opinion between Russia and Iran and make them a less unified support system in the region.

Well I hope negotiations go well, no matter what America would want from Iran or Syria. It's gonna be tricky considering the bad blood btw Iran and America but with Russia backing up Iran in many ways, even suggesting it would HELP build Iranian nuclear reactors, America has to be practical too. Putin is popular with his people and seems ready for war against Ukraine. America is tied down with domestic problems and doesn't want to get too involved in world affairs, so America has to be realistic in what it asks for.

 

[janklow]

Putin is popular with his people and seems ready for war against Ukraine. America is tied down with domestic problems-

okay, but let's be real: we can't say the US has big domestic problems and then act like Russia and/or Iran don't.

 

[kingblaze84]

Putin is popular with his people and seems ready for war against Ukraine. America is tied down with domestic problems-

okay, but let's be real: we can't say the US has big domestic problems and then act like Russia and/or Iran don't.

That's all true. But with Iran helping ISIS stay contained in Syria and Iraq and Russia doing its part to do the same (ISIS also is reportedly fighting its own allies in Iraq lately), we gotta keep good terms with Russia and Iran as much as possible. Being provocative with these two large nations is not the way to go for awhile, maybe when things cool down in the Middle East but for now cooperation is the name of the game. Especially when we have common enemies (radical Islam)

Of course though, Obama isn't happy about Russia being more involved in the war in Ukraine, so that may cause some problems down the line. Hopefully Obama can forget about Ukraine for awhile and think of the big picture, having allies against radical Islam.

 

[janklow]

Being provocative with these two large nations is not the way to go for awhile-

better tell Obama that, since it's time for more Russian sanctions

 

[kingblaze84]

Being provocative with these two large nations is not the way to go for awhile-

better tell Obama that, since it's time for more Russian sanctions

Well I guess a lot of that cooperation on fighting ISIS and other Islamist radical groups will go under now lol. Hopefully, Russia, Iran and the Syrian govt continue to contain ISIS and the other Islamist groups. This year will be very interesting.

 

[janklow]

Well I guess a lot of that cooperation on fighting ISIS and other Islamist radical groups will go under now lol.

luckily, my state now bans many of the guns that Obama just import-banned, thus muting my ability to get worked up about these sanctions

 

[kingblaze84]

Well I guess a lot of that cooperation on fighting ISIS and other Islamist radical groups will go under now lol.

luckily, my state now bans many of the guns that Obama just import-banned, thus muting my ability to get worked up about these sanctions

I'm not worked up about the sanctions either. I just hope Russia doesn't try to boomerang the sanctions into a way that actually hurts America or its allies. But I have a feeling it will somehow....

You and those guns man. There's more to life then just gun collection you know.