Shuffington
New member
Did anybody post the stupid design vid yet?
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supaman4321
New member
@My_nameaintearl;3315720 said:
what don't you understand about the word everybody, it's pretty all encompassing no?
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supaman4321
New member
Kushington;3315846 said:
don't confuse God knowing the outcome or result of everything with a lack of free will, he doesn't force us to do anything we're completely responsible for our actions (under most ordinary circumstances) so how could we not have free will?
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supaman4321
New member
Question:
I was wondering if you could possibly help me resolve some conflicting issues. If God is All-Powerful, He must be able to prevent evil. If God is All-Good, He must want to prevent evil. But evil and suffering exist. How is it possible for God to be both All-Powerful and All-Good and still allow a world in which evil and suffering exist? I would greatly appreciate a response.
_______
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Answer provided by: Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, past president of I.S.N.A.
Indeed Allah is All-Powerful (Al-`Aziz) and He is able to do all things (Allahu 'ala kuli shayin qadir). The Quran has mentioned this hundreds of times. It is also mentioned in the Quran that Allah is the Creator and He is the Best Creator. Glory be to Allah, the best Creator. (Al-Mu'minoon: 14)
But then the question comes why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.
But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.
It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve.
There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.
But then the question is why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?
Let us ask this question to understand Allah's ways in His creation. The Quran tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah's Will (mashiat Allah). Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Quran tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Quran has not given us all the details about Allah's Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that we should keep in our mind to understand this issue:
1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.
2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of ones health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:
(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Quran. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures."
(Ar-Rahman:1-10)
The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of "cause and effect" is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Quran says:
"If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants."
(Fatir:45)
But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Quran tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:
If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)
3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah's Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Quran as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.
4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:
Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, "O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me." He will say, "O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds?" Allah will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?" Allah will say, "O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not." He shall say, "O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?" And Allah will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?" "O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink." The man shall say, "O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?" Allah will say, "My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me?"
(Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)
Prophet `Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is also reported to have said something similar in the Injeel (Gospel or New Testament of The Bible). (See Matthew 25: 35-45) So to summarize, we can say suffering occurs to teach us that we must adhere to Allah's natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah's natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, Have we broken any law of Allah? Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. Could it be a punishment? Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. Could it be a test and trial for us? Let us work hard to pass this test. Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him. May Allah keep us on the right path, Amen!
Allah Almighty knows best.
I was wondering if you could possibly help me resolve some conflicting issues. If God is All-Powerful, He must be able to prevent evil. If God is All-Good, He must want to prevent evil. But evil and suffering exist. How is it possible for God to be both All-Powerful and All-Good and still allow a world in which evil and suffering exist? I would greatly appreciate a response.
_______
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Answer provided by: Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, past president of I.S.N.A.
Indeed Allah is All-Powerful (Al-`Aziz) and He is able to do all things (Allahu 'ala kuli shayin qadir). The Quran has mentioned this hundreds of times. It is also mentioned in the Quran that Allah is the Creator and He is the Best Creator. Glory be to Allah, the best Creator. (Al-Mu'minoon: 14)
But then the question comes why do pain and sufferings exist in the world. We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.
But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.
It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve.
There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.
But then the question is why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?
Let us ask this question to understand Allah's ways in His creation. The Quran tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah's Will (mashiat Allah). Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Quran tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Quran has not given us all the details about Allah's Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that we should keep in our mind to understand this issue:
1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.
2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of ones health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:
(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Quran. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures."
(Ar-Rahman:1-10)
The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of "cause and effect" is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Quran says:
"If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants."
(Fatir:45)
But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Quran tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:
If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)
3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah's Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Quran as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.
4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:
Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, "O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me." He will say, "O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds?" Allah will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?" Allah will say, "O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not." He shall say, "O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?" And Allah will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?" "O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink." The man shall say, "O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?" Allah will say, "My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me?"
(Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)
Prophet `Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is also reported to have said something similar in the Injeel (Gospel or New Testament of The Bible). (See Matthew 25: 35-45) So to summarize, we can say suffering occurs to teach us that we must adhere to Allah's natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah's natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, Have we broken any law of Allah? Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. Could it be a punishment? Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. Could it be a test and trial for us? Let us work hard to pass this test. Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him. May Allah keep us on the right path, Amen!
Allah Almighty knows best.
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CeLLaR-DooR
New member
supaman4321;3319036 said:
..........
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When people say God I assume they mean Yahweh. Yahweh is the God referred to in the Old and New Testament. Jesus was not God. He was a Messiah; a messenger. Yahweh sent 7 messiah's to the Earth to teach and remind people of his laws. The bible is not meant to be taken literally, word for word. The Buddha religion/beliefs were developed from one of the 7 messiah's teachings.
This is what Buddha say about suffering:
Four Noble Truths
Suffering Exists
Suffering arises from attachment to desires.
Suffering ceases when attachment to desires ceases.
Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the eightfold path.
Eightfold Path- Right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness and contemplation.
Three characteristics of existence- Transiency, Sorrow and selflessness hindrances.
Unwholesome mental states that impede progress towards enlightenment- Sensuous lust, aversion and ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and sceptical doubt.
Factors of Enlightenment- Mindfulness, investigation, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity.
This is what Buddha say about suffering:
Four Noble Truths
Suffering Exists
Suffering arises from attachment to desires.
Suffering ceases when attachment to desires ceases.
Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the eightfold path.
Eightfold Path- Right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness and contemplation.
Three characteristics of existence- Transiency, Sorrow and selflessness hindrances.
Unwholesome mental states that impede progress towards enlightenment- Sensuous lust, aversion and ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and sceptical doubt.
Factors of Enlightenment- Mindfulness, investigation, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity.
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waterproof;3315867 said:
Where does it say in the bible that the devil or lucifer deceived Eve? I'm sure it says "serpent" or "snake", never once saying it was the devil, it's just being assumed. SMH, dude who does nothing gets a bad rep.
Also I find it hilarious that God does no bad. If there is a god it's allowed many bad things to happen and done nothing. Torture, starvation, thirst, murders, rape, suffering etc but when something good happens it's always attributed to god. Live through something and another diEd then for some reason, "Thank god he saved you! You were chosen by god to live for something" (and in reality they usually die later in life and did nothing) god always gets the "good praise". If it's bad god isn't responsible or capable of it lol okay...
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Hyde Parke
New member
i dont understand why "atheist" consistently discuss what they deem to be non-existent
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kingblaze84
New member
waterproof;3312967 said:
So Lucifer makes hurricanes and tornadoes now? LMAO
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kingblaze84
New member
supaman4321;3319036 said:
So God creates hurricanes and tornadoes because he's an evil vindictive asshole who has a grudge due to some people being bad. Got ya.
***will never become Muslim or a member of any religion***
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You may wonder, why would God want to manifest evil
and to experience non-perfection?
Well, aren't ALL THINGS contained in God?
God is fearless. He/she will experience all that is in him/her,
whatever it is. Fortunately it so happens, as I already stated,
that all things are given a set amount of momentum when
they are made. The momentum of evil is 6,000 years.
God has always been
absolutely perfect. But every one of his qualities has its
opposite, and all the opposites must be experienced also.
God is afraid of nothing.
131. The only way for him/her to experience the opposites is
to make beings that can manifest them. In the case of the
absence of perfection, which starts as evil (selfforgetfulness),
132. Evil itself can only be manifested in the physical
universe. It depends on the concept of 'time', which does
not exist in the mental realms. Over there, there is no time
delay between error and correction, or between sin and
punishment. The wages of sin there are paid almost
immediately after the sin is committed. So evil cannot exist
for long there, because sinners would quickly self-destruct.
The physical universe is the only ideal place for it.
and to experience non-perfection?
Well, aren't ALL THINGS contained in God?
God is fearless. He/she will experience all that is in him/her,
whatever it is. Fortunately it so happens, as I already stated,
that all things are given a set amount of momentum when
they are made. The momentum of evil is 6,000 years.
God has always been
absolutely perfect. But every one of his qualities has its
opposite, and all the opposites must be experienced also.
God is afraid of nothing.
131. The only way for him/her to experience the opposites is
to make beings that can manifest them. In the case of the
absence of perfection, which starts as evil (selfforgetfulness),
132. Evil itself can only be manifested in the physical
universe. It depends on the concept of 'time', which does
not exist in the mental realms. Over there, there is no time
delay between error and correction, or between sin and
punishment. The wages of sin there are paid almost
immediately after the sin is committed. So evil cannot exist
for long there, because sinners would quickly self-destruct.
The physical universe is the only ideal place for it.
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waterproof
New member
kingblaze84;3320559 said:
Nigga before you quote somebody on a subject and go read the topic and come back again, and read my post again. lazy ass assuming ass niggas
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lighthearted25
New member
Hyde Parke;3320363 said:
Thank you! i don't get that either. and why are alot of atheist super intellectual? i know some would say because they are smart enough to know whats real and whats bullshit but i think its because they are over analyzing everything and think every question must have a conclusive answer because thats how they live their normal everyday life. and 2 of my good friends are atheist so im not saying any of this to insult or belittle.
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Go figure...
New member
i dont see anything wrong with atheists having a conversation about God's (non)existence.
since the beginning of time mankind has always had some kind of belief in a higher being. everyone's got something to say about it.
since the beginning of time mankind has always had some kind of belief in a higher being. everyone's got something to say about it.
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_武赏_
New member
toomy;3319260 said:
Buddhism is not an offspring of christian or muslim religiosity. It predates christianity and islam.
Buddhism is to christiantiy and islam what a Astrophysicist(Phd Level) is to a person who has just an Associates in physics. 10 thousand leagues deeper.
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BlackxChild
New member
lighthearted25;3321173 said:
So your explanation for everything in life is "god did it"? So you choose not to use logic and analyze what you do?
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Hyde Parke
New member
Go figure...;3321401 said:
never said anythings wrong with it, just doesnt make alot of sense to proclaim something doesnt exist, yet question the ideology of whats been concluded as being non existent.
ether basically just summed it up tho.
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BiblicalAtheist
New member
Huruma;3312922 said:
but a non material 'mind' is totally acceptable?
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Because God/religion is relevant when you live in a predominately theistic/religious society and when other people's religious beliefs are as influential as they are. I wasn't interested in a debate about whether or not a god or gods exist, only why some atheists base their dis-belief of any kind of supernatural deity on the suffering in the world.
BiblicalAtheist;3333330 said:
I don't believe in a non-material 'mind', either. Consciousness is the neurological processing of electrical/chemical information.
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Hyde Parke
New member
ok gotcha. i dont think the allowance of suffering is the only component on which they(atheist) base their suspension of belief is it? whats really interesting , from my observance is that those who are suffering at their highest point, are the ones who hold the strongest belief in God.
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