Battle Thread: Odin vs Trigon

[evoljeanyes]

Hyperstorm beat Franklin

 

[The Lonious Monk]

The Lonious, b, come on son.

Galactus threw a temper tantrum, aka he was angry. When you're angry some effort is put into whatever you're doing. It's a fact, it's logic, it's common sense. No one said he went 100% ham on shit, but he still tried. To pretend it was no effort is misrepresenting it. It's like when Surfer threw tantrums, he's destroyed planets IIRC and one time it actually amped him up to Galactus level (that shit happened for like...1 second though so not too impactful). Anger usually leads to some effort, Galactus destroyed Star Systems with effort. He also destroyed Galaxies with effort, but he's not universe level.

UN is gear, cool, but he never uses it when he needs it, so it's inconsequential. Why would he have it against Celestials? Because there are single Celestials stronger than him maybe? And if it was standard gear, why didn't he just pull it out after they fused together? Same with T & A, why not pull it out and beat them with it? Why does Surfer have to be the one to do it? Why not use a tool that can rewrite universes to sate his hunger? Or to beat Thanos when he took the Infinity Gauntlet? Or to beat Beyonder when he tried to fight him? Or to take over Asgard (He even said it would fill his hunger for damn near ever so he had stakes)? Or to take over Marvel Earth which he's failed to do about 100 times, Or to get his powers back from Doom, etc. There's been too many situation where loses, and a few where he DIES and yet never pulls out the UN. It's essentially not even gear for him.

Let me see something Hyperstorm did. Tell me his feats. Did he create pocket universes? Was he an omniversal threat? Did he warp shit on a high level? Because I've never heard anyone ever say Hyperstorm is on Franklin Richards' level. Franklin's done more, waay more, including taking on Celestials and actually beating/humbling Galactus. Cause Jim Jaspers, Legion, Franklin Richards, Mister M, etc. all have high end reality warping and some have created their own universes.

Word.....he's top 5 on Marvel Earth?

Ok tell me what Galactus did better than Legion having a universe in a box, creating his own universe, and killing Limbo's Elder Gods? I'll wait.

Tell me what Galactus did better than Franklin Richards creating his own universes? I'll wait

Tell me what Galactus did better than HOM Scarlet Witch with her omniversal chaos warp that depowered mutants and revived Jim Jaspers? I'll wait

Tell me what Galactus did better than Jim Jaspers not only warping all of reality, but replacing Eternity and becoming an actual universe and having his warp said to be an omniversal threat? I'll wait.

You see this, the list of high end reality warpers on Marvel Earth? There's more and more and even characters who straight up beat Galactus head up (Doom, Phoenix). Most cosmic entities maybe even Death and Eternity might not be top 5 on Marvel Earth. It's not a bad thing at all b. stop underestimating just how powerful Marvel Earth is.

Dog being able to create a pocket universe is not the end all be all of power. Pretty much ever Demon out there has created his own pocket realm, and we've seen that those realms are massive. Something like that is exceptional on Marvel Earth, but in the greater Marvel Universe, it's not all that special.

The ability of those reality warpers to create their own universes has absolutely no bearing on how they'd do in an encounter with a cosmic being. That's what you don't seem to understand. Tell me one time when the Living Tribunal has stepped forward to comment on the actions of these reality warpers. Every time Thanos gets a major power and threatens the Universe, the LT pops up to make a judgement on what should be done. Has the LT ever given a fuck about Franklin Richards or Scarlet Witch or Jim Jaspers? Have the high level Cosmics ever convened to figure out what they should do like they have when real threats to the universe have popped up? No. In fact, every thin we've seen suggests that the Cosmics don't give a fuck about reality warpers because in most cases shown, the reality warping doesn't even affect them. In fact, if I'm not mistaken it was flat out stated that Scarlet Witch's warp bubble went completely beneath the notice of the higher Cosmic beings.

The only one of those reality warpers you've named that has consistently been able to stand against high level Cosmic threats is Franklin Richards, and even then, it's only future Franklin not the current version. Think about when Abraxas was running wild. Frankin couldn't just blink him out of existence. Franklin had to bring Galactus out of stasis so Galactus could provide them with what they needed to beat him.

You are overrating these reality warpers. They are always shown to be crazy powerful, but that is almost always in comparison to characters on Earth. None of those dudes are running around on the Cosmic Marvel scene causing the same havoc. And therein lies what you don't seem to see. Marvel is not DC where the Earth powers and the Cosmic powers are roughly the same level. In Marvel, the Cosmic arena is on a much higher plane. The same characters that premiere heroes on Earth are typically fodder in the Cosmic events. Hell, this point should be clear to anyone reading Infinity. Damn, near all the Earth heroes are out in space for this War including a lot of heavy hitters. They aren't the leaders or the exceptional powerhouses. They are just grunts in the army. And this isn't even an event involving Cosmics. In fact, they made a point of sending Galactus to the Ultimate Universe while this even goes on because they know the Builders wouldn't be much of a threat when Galactus wipes them out for destroying potential food sources.

Honestly, if you think that Marvel Earth has even one character that is more powerful than Eternity, you should just stop posting here for good.

 

[jaxn]

let's be fair here..LT may have only shown up with Thanos during the End..Even when he had the IG, iirc, the LT didn't care enough about the battle to pass judgement, because it didn't matter if Thanos won. I haven't looked at the book in awhile, but i'm pretty sure when the cosmics came to LT for assistance, he told them to fuck off because Thanos wasn't really doing anything worthy of his judgement

 

[evoljeanyes]

@jaxn naw he knew it was happening it was an effect he just said he wasn't jumping in because he said Thanos had the tight to take over the universe because power switches in the universe that's how it goes. So he was on LT'S RADAR. He just didn't feel he had the right to impede.

 

[jaxn]

I didn't say he didn't notice. I said he didn't bother to interfere. the LT notices everything, that's his role

 

[The Lonious Monk]

let's be fair here..LT may have only shown up with Thanos during the End..Even when he had the IG, iirc, the LT didn't care enough about the battle to pass judgement, because it didn't matter if Thanos won. I haven't looked at the book in awhile, but i'm pretty sure when the cosmics came to LT for assistance, he told them to fuck off because Thanos wasn't really doing anything worthy of his judgement

The point is, the Cosmics cared enough to take it to the LT and the LT acknowledged it enough to make a judgement. This isn't quite true. The events of the IG Saga along with what Adam Warlock did afterward played into the LT's judgement to make it so that the gems couldn't be used together again. So LT did see them as threats, he just didn't go with the initial argument that the Cosmics brought. If I'm not mistaken Eternity guessed that Thanos would try and be the new Eternity, and LT was like "Oh well, sucks to be you." However, after he saw how much damage people were causing with the IG, he acted.

The Cosmics didn't give a flying fuck about M day or the fact that there are people on Earth running around creating pocket universes or creating multiversal ripples. Only the Earth characters are awed by those things.

 

[jaxn]

let's be fair here..LT may have only shown up with Thanos during the End..Even when he had the IG, iirc, the LT didn't care enough about the battle to pass judgement, because it didn't matter if Thanos won. I haven't looked at the book in awhile, but i'm pretty sure when the cosmics came to LT for assistance, he told them to fuck off because Thanos wasn't really doing anything worthy of his judgement

The point is, the Cosmics cared enough to take it to the LT and the LT acknowledged it enough to make a judgement. This isn't quite true. The events of the IG Saga along with what Adam Warlock did afterward played into the LT's judgement to make it so that the gems couldn't be used together again. So LT did see them as threats, he just didn't go with the initial argument that the Cosmics brought. If I'm not mistaken Eternity guessed that Thanos would try and be the new Eternity, and LT was like "Oh well, sucks to be you." However, after he saw how much damage people were causing with the IG, he acted.

I'm addressing the Thanos portion of your comments. He didn't make a judgment on Thanos. He didn't care about Thanos and regardless, Thanos was in possession of all the gems. Those gems combined are more powerful than JJ or Franklin..

The Cosmics didn't give a flying fuck about M day or the fact that there are people on Earth running around creating pocket universes or creating multiversal ripples. Only the Earth characters are awed by those things.

why would they care about M day though? It affected a tiny fraction of the universe. It had no bearing on anything. And I wouldn't quite say that only Earthlings are in awe of things such as pocket universes..that's basically why the Celestials came to Franklin in the first place..because he possessed power that rivaled their own.

 

[evoljeanyes]

@jaxn I believe you stated that Thanos wasn't doing enough for LT to feel the need to pass judgement. Well that's not true...he just didn't feel Thanos was out of line. You feel me. Thanos was wrecking shit. The gems are more powerful than most shit.

Celestials hollered at Franklin because he saved every with his pocket universe he didn't just have one. He used it with purpose. I would agree though its an impressive feat for warpers its impressive beyond just Earth

 

[The Lonious Monk]

The Celestials hollering at Franklin for anything isn't a good example since Franklin and mutants in general are supposed to be the fruits of Celestial experimentation.

 

[jaxn]

@jaxn I believe you stated that Thanos wasn't doing enough for LT to feel the need to pass judgement. Well that's not true...he just didn't feel Thanos was out of line. You feel me. Thanos was wrecking shit. The gems are more powerful than most shit.

Celestials hollered at Franklin because he saved every with his pocket universe he didn't just have one. He used it with purpose. I would agree though its an impressive feat for warpers its impressive beyond just Earth

my point still stands though, the LT didn't pass judgement on Thanos..in other words he wasn't too concerned about what Thanos was doing. If you can point out where in IG arc the LT decided to step in and actually judge Thanos I will happily concede the point. Being the LT, he's aware of everything that goes on though. Celestials came to Franklin because they knew how powerful he was

 

[jaxn]

The Celestials hollering at Franklin for anything isn't a good example since Franklin and mutants in general are supposed to be the fruits of Celestial experimentation.

oh really, so what other mutants have the Celestials (several of them) come to and try to recruit? And to your point about Thanos/LT vesus JJ/LT..its a disingenius argument to make considering Thanos had the IG or the Heart of the Universe when he goes on these quests...it's not like the LT just comes in to check on Thanos at his regular operating levels of power

 

[evoljeanyes]

I feel you...I just feel like his judgement was that Thanos had the right to take over and he woulsnt protect their positions, but if Thanos ran up on him he would. So in a way you're right Thanos hadn't gotten to multiversal threat levels.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

oh really, so what other mutants have the Celestials (several of them) come to and try to recruit? And to your point about Thanos/LT vesus JJ/LT..its a disingenius argument to make considering Thanos had the IG or the Heart of the Universe when he goes on these quests...it's not like the LT just comes in to check on Thanos at his regular operating levels of power

Mutants in general are the result of Celestial experimentation. Franklin is the one that's seen as being the fruits they were looking for. That's why they are interested in him. It's irrelevant if any other mutants have gotten that treatment. The point is that the Celestials aren't merely interested in Franklin because he's just so powerful. They are interested in him because he is the fruition of their work. And I agree with evol, the LT did make a judgement. His judgement was Thanos had the right to do what he was doing and no interference on his (LT's) part was necessary.

And I'm not sure what you mean by my argument being disingenuous. I specifically said "Whenever Thanos gets a major power and threatens the universe..." Nowhere did I claim that the LT gives a fuck what Thanos does under normal circumstances. The point was that when someone is truly a threat to the universe, the LT will come into the picture. Whether he decides to intervene or not is based on his judgement, but he usually makes an appearance. People are in here saying these reality warpers are higher than characters like Galactus and Eternity despite the fact that Cosmic characters have shown no concern or care about them or any of the things they've done.

 

[evoljeanyes]

No one has ever warped a high cosmic...never...not Franklin not hyperstorm not Jim Jasper's...don't know who is higher than these guys....Odin is beyond warping as are Thanos and Adam Warlock

 

[The Lonious Monk]

I wouldn't go as far to say Thanos and Adam are above that.

 

[jaxn]

oh really, so what other mutants have the Celestials (several of them) come to and try to recruit? And to your point about Thanos/LT vesus JJ/LT..its a disingenius argument to make considering Thanos had the IG or the Heart of the Universe when he goes on these quests...it's not like the LT just comes in to check on Thanos at his regular operating levels of power

Mutants in general are the result of Celestial experimentation. Franklin is the one that's seen as being the fruits they were looking for. That's why they are interested in him. It's irrelevant if any other mutants have gotten that treatment. The point is that the Celestials aren't merely interested in Franklin because he's just so powerful. They are interested in him because he is the fruition of their work. And I agree with evol, the LT did make a judgement. His judgement was Thanos had the right to do what he was doing and no interference on his (LT's) part was necessary.

you brought up their connection with mutants, so tell me what other mutants have the Celestials specifically approached to recruit into their ranks? the LT did not make a judgement on Thanos. The cosmics went to him for his assitance. the LT does not need to wait for cosmics to ask for his help. It really doesn't matter anyway since the IG, is not Thanos' power.

And I'm not sure what you mean by my argument being disingenuous. I specifically said "Whenever Thanos gets a major power and threatens the universe..." Nowhere did I claim that the LT gives a fuck what Thanos does under normal circumstances.

Its disingenuious because you're comparing Jim Jaspers and Franklin Richards with Thanos using the IG or Thanos using the Heart of the Universe.

The point was that when someone is truly a threat to the universe, the LT will come into the picture. Whether he decides to intervene or not is based on his judgement, but he usually makes an appearance

Ok and did the LT intervene with Thanos in IG or did the cosmics specifically go to him and ask for his help?

People are in here saying these reality warpers are higher than characters like Galactus and Eternity despite the fact that Cosmic characters have shown no concern or care about them or any of the things they've done.

I've argued that Franklin is above Galactus, which he is. You then proceeded to compare Thanos with the IG and Heart of the Universe to guys operating under their own power levels.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

you brought up their connection with mutants, so tell me what other mutants have the Celestials specifically approached to recruit into their ranks? the LT did not make a judgement on Thanos. The cosmics went to him for his assitance. the LT does not need to wait for cosmics to ask for his help. It really doesn't matter anyway since the IG, is not Thanos' power.

I don't think you understand my point. It makes no difference how many mutants the Celestial have approached. The point remains that the Celestials have an interest in mutants and monitor mutants. Franklin may be the only one they've approached on that level, but it's not like they were just out and about and randomly found him because he was just that powerful. They've been keeping their eyes on Earth for a long time specifically waiting for someone like Franklin to come along.

The LT did make a judgement. What do you think a judgement is? It's just a decision related to a contention of some type. The Cosmics petitioned him because of the threat that Thanos posed. He accepted their petition and heard their case. He then made a judgement that Thanos did not warrant his intervention. I'm not sure why you'd even argue against this. It's canonical fact. And I also don't see what the IG not being Thanos' power has to do with anything.

Its disingenuious because you're comparing Jim Jaspers and Franklin Richards with Thanos using the IG or Thanos using the Heart of the Universe.

How is that being disingenuous? My point is not to prove or suggest that Thanos is stronger than either of those guys. That's not even the discussion at hand. This contention is that these Earthbound reality warpers are more powerful than Cosmics like Galactus and Eternity. DarkRaiden posted a bunch of things they've done to show how dangerous and powerful they are. I pointed out that nothing they've done is all that profound because in most cases, they haven't even gained the notice of the Cosmics. I brought up Thanos with powerups not to suggest he is more powerful than the reality warpers, but to show that when someone pops up that really is that dangerous, the Cosmics will instantly take notice and someone that is really on that level will even attract the attention or cause for the summoning of the LT.

Ok and did the LT intervene with Thanos in IG or did the cosmics specifically go to him and ask for his help?

The Cosmics specifically went to him, but he did respond and that in itself means something since he only responds when there is a matter worth notice. Even someone like Eternity can't just get the LT's attention and time whenever he wants.

I've argued that Franklin is above Galactus, which he is. You then proceeded to compare Thanos with the IG and Heart of the Universe to guys operating under their own power levels.

Future Franklin is above Galactus. Current Franklin is not. And again, I did not compare Thanos with powerups to those guys operating under their own power. I compared the perception of Cosmics to reality warpers, who for the most part go ignored, and to a real universal threat like Thanos with those big power-ups, who necessitates that the Cosmics gang up, seek assistance from the LT, and then launch coordinated attacks when all else fails.

Also, you seem to be getting mixed up. My discussion of Thanos with the IG or HoTU wasn't even in response to you. It was in response to something DarkRaiden said. I never argued against the idea that Future Franklin was above Galactus.

 

[evoljeanyes]

I wouldn't go as far to say Thanos and Adam are above that.

Warlock operates outside of reality and Thanos has no sold warps...I think its written than Thanos can't be warped...and it for sure is written about warlock

 

[evoljeanyes]

So now we're calling future timelines canon? Really? Future Franklin is Psi-lord...psi-lord ain't all that! Psi-lord is canon. So how then is this future Franklin also can...its not canon...the Galactus and Franklin's herald shit is moronic and it should he considered non canon. Because we all know future timelines get disrupted constantly. No Franklin is above Galactus.

 

[jaxn]

So now we're calling future timelines canon? Really? Future Franklin is Psi-lord...psi-lord ain't all that! Psi-lord is canon. So how then is this future Franklin also can...its not canon...the Galactus and Franklin's herald shit is moronic and it should he considered non canon. Because we all know future timelines get disrupted constantly. No Franklin is above Galactus.

howso, the FF issue is canon. that wasn't Psi-lord unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise