Battle Thread: Odin vs Trigon

[evoljeanyes]

Psi-lord was from the future he got written out of 616...So I don't understand how that makes Future Franklin canon we he can be written out of the timeline...we're talking a billion years...and even then it was stated that would stand together as a new universe was created. This was after the battle. It was also stated that each character is from a non 616 universe...so I am not sure how to feel. Either way I am not willing to put Franklin above Galactus.

 

[jaxn]

you brought up their connection with mutants, so tell me what other mutants have the Celestials specifically approached to recruit into their ranks? the LT did not make a judgement on Thanos. The cosmics went to him for his assitance. the LT does not need to wait for cosmics to ask for his help. It really doesn't matter anyway since the IG, is not Thanos' power.

I don't think you understand my point.

I understand quite perfectly

It makes no difference how many mutants the Celestial have approached. The point remains that the Celestials have an interest in mutants and monitor mutants. Franklin may be the only one they've approached on that level, but it's not like they were just out and about and randomly found him because he was just that powerful. They've been keeping their eyes on Earth for a long time specifically waiting for someone like Franklin to come along.

Again, Celestials specifically went to Franklin to recruit him to become one of them. Celestials have pet projects across the universe. Earth is not special

The LT did make a judgement.

when?

What do you think a judgement is? It's just a decision related to a contention of some type. The Cosmics petitioned him because of the threat that Thanos posed. He accepted their petition and heard their case. He then made a judgement that Thanos did not warrant his intervention. I'm not sure why you'd even argue against this. It's canonical fact. And I also don't see what the IG not being Thanos' power has to do with anything.

Because this is not how the LT passes judgement. He doesn't require cosmics to come to him for help with any scenario..if he believes certain actions deserves a judgment from him, he will step in upon his own..This did not occur in that book unless you can point out when the LT approached Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet and made a judgment against Thanos.

Its disingenuious because you're comparing Jim Jaspers and Franklin Richards with Thanos using the IG or Thanos using the Heart of the Universe.

How is that being disingenuous? My point is not to prove or suggest that Thanos is stronger than either of those guys. That's not even the discussion at hand.

ok, you're comparing the LT approaching Thanos when he has universal plot devices such as the infinity gauntlet and the heart of the universe, versus two guys who are operating under their own power..if Jim Jaspers got ahold of the Heart of the Universe and then proceeded to wreck shop on the universe, then you would have an apt comparison.

This contention is that these Earthbound reality warpers are more powerful than Cosmics like Galactus and Eternity. DarkRaiden posted a bunch of things they've done to show how dangerous and powerful they are. I pointed out that nothing they've done is all that profound because in most cases, they haven't even gained the notice of the Cosmics. I brought up Thanos with powerups not to suggest he is more powerful than the reality warpers, but to show that when someone pops up that really is that dangerous, the Cosmics will instantly take notice and someone that is really on that level will even attract the attention or cause for the summoning of the LT.

and that's where it gets disingeniuous. You used Thanos with powerups (this powerup being the Heart of the Universe) but the same can be said for Doom with powerups, Spiderman with powerups..or Aunt May with power ups. It just wasn't a good comparison.

The Cosmics specifically went to him, but he did respond and that in itself means something since he only responds when there is a matter worth notice. Even someone like Eternity can't just get the LT's attention and time whenever he wants.

so in IG, the LT specifically approached Thanos to pass judgement on him or did Cosmic entities ask for his help?

I've argued that Franklin is above Galactus, which he is. You then proceeded to compare Thanos with the IG and Heart of the Universe to guys operating under their own power levels.

Future Franklin is above Galactus. Current Franklin is not.

yes, Current Franklin is

And again, I did not compare Thanos with powerups to those guys operating under their own power. I compared the perception of Cosmics to reality warpers, who for the most part go ignored, and to a real universal threat like Thanos with those big power-ups, who necessitates that the Cosmics gang up, seek assistance from the LT, and then launch coordinated attacks when all else fails.

but you just did compare Thanos with powerups to them. Unless a Jim Jaspers or Franklin or whomever is placed in the same scenario as Thanos, then it's a bad comparison. I'm not trying to defend Dark Raiden, but that wasn't a good comparison.

Also, you seem to be getting mixed up. My discussion of Thanos with the IG or HoTU wasn't even in response to you. It was in response to something DarkRaiden said. I never argued against the idea that Future Franklin was above Galactus.

I know, and that's why i said let's be fair here..the scenarios weren't the same

 

[The Lonious Monk]

you brought up their connection with mutants, so tell me what other mutants have the Celestials specifically approached to recruit into their ranks? the LT did not make a judgement on Thanos. The cosmics went to him for his assitance. the LT does not need to wait for cosmics to ask for his help. It really doesn't matter anyway since the IG, is not Thanos' power.

I don't think you understand my point.

I understand quite perfectly

It makes no difference how many mutants the Celestial have approached. The point remains that the Celestials have an interest in mutants and monitor mutants. Franklin may be the only one they've approached on that level, but it's not like they were just out and about and randomly found him because he was just that powerful. They've been keeping their eyes on Earth for a long time specifically waiting for someone like Franklin to come along.

Again, Celestials specifically went to Franklin to recruit him to become one of them. Celestials have pet projects across the universe. Earth is not special

The LT did make a judgement.

when?

What do you think a judgement is? It's just a decision related to a contention of some type. The Cosmics petitioned him because of the threat that Thanos posed. He accepted their petition and heard their case. He then made a judgement that Thanos did not warrant his intervention. I'm not sure why you'd even argue against this. It's canonical fact. And I also don't see what the IG not being Thanos' power has to do with anything.

Because this is not how the LT passes judgement. He doesn't require cosmics to come to him for help with any scenario..if he believes certain actions deserves a judgment from him, he will step in upon his own..This did not occur in that book unless you can point out when the LT approached Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet and made a judgment against Thanos.

Its disingenuious because you're comparing Jim Jaspers and Franklin Richards with Thanos using the IG or Thanos using the Heart of the Universe.

How is that being disingenuous? My point is not to prove or suggest that Thanos is stronger than either of those guys. That's not even the discussion at hand.

ok, you're comparing the LT approaching Thanos when he has universal plot devices such as the infinity gauntlet and the heart of the universe, versus two guys who are operating under their own power..if Jim Jaspers got ahold of the Heart of the Universe and then proceeded to wreck shop on the universe, then you would have an apt comparison.

This contention is that these Earthbound reality warpers are more powerful than Cosmics like Galactus and Eternity. DarkRaiden posted a bunch of things they've done to show how dangerous and powerful they are. I pointed out that nothing they've done is all that profound because in most cases, they haven't even gained the notice of the Cosmics. I brought up Thanos with powerups not to suggest he is more powerful than the reality warpers, but to show that when someone pops up that really is that dangerous, the Cosmics will instantly take notice and someone that is really on that level will even attract the attention or cause for the summoning of the LT.

and that's where it gets disingeniuous. You used Thanos with powerups (this powerup being the Heart of the Universe) but the same can be said for Doom with powerups, Spiderman with powerups..or Aunt May with power ups. It just wasn't a good comparison.

The Cosmics specifically went to him, but he did respond and that in itself means something since he only responds when there is a matter worth notice. Even someone like Eternity can't just get the LT's attention and time whenever he wants.

so in IG, the LT specifically approached Thanos to pass judgement on him or did Cosmic entities ask for his help?

I've argued that Franklin is above Galactus, which he is. You then proceeded to compare Thanos with the IG and Heart of the Universe to guys operating under their own power levels.

Future Franklin is above Galactus. Current Franklin is not.

yes, Current Franklin is

And again, I did not compare Thanos with powerups to those guys operating under their own power. I compared the perception of Cosmics to reality warpers, who for the most part go ignored, and to a real universal threat like Thanos with those big power-ups, who necessitates that the Cosmics gang up, seek assistance from the LT, and then launch coordinated attacks when all else fails.

but you just did compare Thanos with powerups to them. Unless a Jim Jaspers or Franklin or whomever is placed in the same scenario as Thanos, then it's a bad comparison. I'm not trying to defend Dark Raiden, but that wasn't a good comparison.

Also, you seem to be getting mixed up. My discussion of Thanos with the IG or HoTU wasn't even in response to you. It was in response to something DarkRaiden said. I never argued against the idea that Future Franklin was above Galactus.

I know, and that's why i said let's be fair here..the scenarios weren't the same

Current Franklin is not above Galactus. In the other thread, you're so gung ho about having feats to prove things. What has current Franklin done to show he is on Galactus' level. So far his biggest feats are resurrecting/reviving Galactus and creating his own pocket universe. Neither of those feats is all that big when it comes to scope within the 616 Universe. Sure, it might be true that Franklin can create universes where his power = The One Above All's in the 616, but that has no bearing on how he stacks up against other characters within the 616 Universe.

And again, the scenarios don't need to be the same. The facts are when Thanos got those power-ups, the Cosmics immediately became aware and convened on what steps they needed to take because they knew Thanos was a threat. Hell, Eternity especially was motivated by the fact that he believed Thanos could usurp him.

DarkRaiden is essentially making the argument that there are 5 or more characters on Marvel Earth that represent the same level of threat. My point is not to compare characters, but to compare the threat level they represent. DarkRaiden would have you believe that being able to create pocket universes is a power that puts you beyond essentially everyone short of the Living Tribunal. There is no way, Earth could have a bunch of people running around with that kind of power and the Cosmics not take notice. Especially, when you have people in the cases of Jim Jaspers and Legion who have traditionally not been responsible with the power. Hell, the underlying theme behind this Infinity event is the fact that the Builders believe the Earth needs to be destroyed in order to protect the universe. They don't feel that way because Earth has a few reality warpers. They fear the shenanigans that people like Reed Richards get into far more than anything that Franklin Richards has done.

 

[jaxn]

you brought up their connection with mutants, so tell me what other mutants have the Celestials specifically approached to recruit into their ranks? the LT did not make a judgement on Thanos. The cosmics went to him for his assitance. the LT does not need to wait for cosmics to ask for his help. It really doesn't matter anyway since the IG, is not Thanos' power.

I don't think you understand my point.

I understand quite perfectly

It makes no difference how many mutants the Celestial have approached. The point remains that the Celestials have an interest in mutants and monitor mutants. Franklin may be the only one they've approached on that level, but it's not like they were just out and about and randomly found him because he was just that powerful. They've been keeping their eyes on Earth for a long time specifically waiting for someone like Franklin to come along.

Again, Celestials specifically went to Franklin to recruit him to become one of them. Celestials have pet projects across the universe. Earth is not special

The LT did make a judgement.

when?

What do you think a judgement is? It's just a decision related to a contention of some type. The Cosmics petitioned him because of the threat that Thanos posed. He accepted their petition and heard their case. He then made a judgement that Thanos did not warrant his intervention. I'm not sure why you'd even argue against this. It's canonical fact. And I also don't see what the IG not being Thanos' power has to do with anything.

Because this is not how the LT passes judgement. He doesn't require cosmics to come to him for help with any scenario..if he believes certain actions deserves a judgment from him, he will step in upon his own..This did not occur in that book unless you can point out when the LT approached Thanos in Infinity Gauntlet and made a judgment against Thanos.

Its disingenuious because you're comparing Jim Jaspers and Franklin Richards with Thanos using the IG or Thanos using the Heart of the Universe.

How is that being disingenuous? My point is not to prove or suggest that Thanos is stronger than either of those guys. That's not even the discussion at hand.

ok, you're comparing the LT approaching Thanos when he has universal plot devices such as the infinity gauntlet and the heart of the universe, versus two guys who are operating under their own power..if Jim Jaspers got ahold of the Heart of the Universe and then proceeded to wreck shop on the universe, then you would have an apt comparison.

This contention is that these Earthbound reality warpers are more powerful than Cosmics like Galactus and Eternity. DarkRaiden posted a bunch of things they've done to show how dangerous and powerful they are. I pointed out that nothing they've done is all that profound because in most cases, they haven't even gained the notice of the Cosmics. I brought up Thanos with powerups not to suggest he is more powerful than the reality warpers, but to show that when someone pops up that really is that dangerous, the Cosmics will instantly take notice and someone that is really on that level will even attract the attention or cause for the summoning of the LT.

and that's where it gets disingeniuous. You used Thanos with powerups (this powerup being the Heart of the Universe) but the same can be said for Doom with powerups, Spiderman with powerups..or Aunt May with power ups. It just wasn't a good comparison.

The Cosmics specifically went to him, but he did respond and that in itself means something since he only responds when there is a matter worth notice. Even someone like Eternity can't just get the LT's attention and time whenever he wants.

so in IG, the LT specifically approached Thanos to pass judgement on him or did Cosmic entities ask for his help?

I've argued that Franklin is above Galactus, which he is. You then proceeded to compare Thanos with the IG and Heart of the Universe to guys operating under their own power levels.

Future Franklin is above Galactus. Current Franklin is not.

yes, Current Franklin is

And again, I did not compare Thanos with powerups to those guys operating under their own power. I compared the perception of Cosmics to reality warpers, who for the most part go ignored, and to a real universal threat like Thanos with those big power-ups, who necessitates that the Cosmics gang up, seek assistance from the LT, and then launch coordinated attacks when all else fails.

but you just did compare Thanos with powerups to them. Unless a Jim Jaspers or Franklin or whomever is placed in the same scenario as Thanos, then it's a bad comparison. I'm not trying to defend Dark Raiden, but that wasn't a good comparison.

Also, you seem to be getting mixed up. My discussion of Thanos with the IG or HoTU wasn't even in response to you. It was in response to something DarkRaiden said. I never argued against the idea that Future Franklin was above Galactus.

I know, and that's why i said let's be fair here..the scenarios weren't the same

Current Franklin is not above Galactus. In the other thread, you're so gung ho about having feats to prove things. What has current Franklin done to show he is on Galactus' level. So far his biggest feats are resurrecting/reviving Galactus and creating his own pocket universe. Neither of those feats is all that big when it comes to scope within the 616 Universe. Sure, it might be true that Franklin can create universes where his power = The One Above All's in the 616, but that has no bearing on how he stacks up against other characters within the 616 Universe.

And again, the scenarios don't need to be the same. The facts are when Thanos got those power-ups, the Cosmics immediately became aware and convened on what steps they needed to take because they knew Thanos was a threat. Hell, Eternity especially was motivated by the fact that he believed Thanos could usurp him.

DarkRaiden is essentially making the argument that there are 5 or more characters on Marvel Earth that represent the same level of threat. My point is not to compare characters, but to compare the threat level they represent. DarkRaiden would have you believe that being able to create pocket universes is a power that puts you beyond essentially everyone short of the Living Tribunal. There is no way, Earth could have a bunch of people running around with that kind of power and the Cosmics not take notice. Especially, when you have people in the cases of Jim Jaspers and Legion who have traditionally not been responsible with the power. Hell, the underlying theme behind this Infinity event is the fact that the Builders believe the Earth needs to be destroyed in order to protect the universe. They don't feel that way because Earth has a few reality warpers. They fear the shenanigans that people like Reed Richards get into far more than anything that Franklin Richards has done.

DR's argument doesn't make sense. Has it been revealed why the Builders are doing what they're doing? The Great Destroyer hasn't shown up yet has he? You have that throwawy line about Franklin but if he got involved in the fight, trust me they would take notice

 

[jaxn]

@theLonious, it doesn't matter anyway since Franklin isn't involved in the event as of yet and I do agree with the concept of your argument.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

DR's argument doesn't make sense. Has it been revealed why the Builders are doing what they're doing? The Great Destroyer hasn't shown up yet has he? You have that throwawy line about Franklin but if he got involved in the fight, trust me they would take notice

Yeah, at least on the surface. The builders gave an option to all the worlds in the coalition against them to stand down because they only wanted Earth. The reason being is that Earthlings have been the cause of too many large scale problems, so the Builders believe the Earth needs to go.

 

[DarkRaiden]

DarkRaiden is essentially making the argument that there are 5 or more characters on Marvel Earth that represent the same level of threat. My point is not to compare characters, but to compare the threat level they represent. DarkRaiden would have you believe that being able to create pocket universes is a power that puts you beyond essentially everyone short of the Living Tribunal. There is no way, Earth could have a bunch of people running around with that kind of power and the Cosmics not take notice. Especially, when you have people in the cases of Jim Jaspers and Legion who have traditionally not been responsible with the power. Hell, the underlying theme behind this Infinity event is the fact that the Builders believe the Earth needs to be destroyed in order to protect the universe. They don't feel that way because Earth has a few reality warpers. They fear the shenanigans that people like Reed Richards get into far more than anything that Franklin Richards has done.

B that's just plot. The writers can't have Living Tribunal stepping in every other issue. Shit would get boring and tedious. Same way that when Age of Apocalypse or Age of Ultron happens, they conveniently just forget that these reality warpers exist. They're tryna tell a story and don't want shit interfering really.

Another "in-universe" explanation could be simply:

1. They keep each other in check. crazy Legion won't warp what Jim Jaspers doesn't want him to. Scarlet Witch might also have something to say about Jaspers's warp and has Franklin Richards to back her up. Or something similar

2. Most of them have the potential to be above Cosmics, and maybe Cosmics don't want to stir the pot and be warped away or killed. If Legion can warp away Limbo's Elder Gods who are supposedly universal in power with but a thought, who's to say he can't TRY and warp away Eternity. Maybe it's the risk reward thing.

It's impossible to tell because inconsistencies litter comics like crazy with all these new writers. Hell since Marquis the Death, for some reason, Doom's yet to use his power that can kill a Universal Reality Warper like Marquis the Death, and the power he displayed to kill a Watcher. It's like they totally forgot about it, but it's still canon. Best is to chalk it up to plot and keep it moving IMO.

 

[evoljeanyes]

DarkRaiden is essentially making the argument that there are 5 or more characters on Marvel Earth that represent the same level of threat. My point is not to compare characters, but to compare the threat level they represent. DarkRaiden would have you believe that being able to create pocket universes is a power that puts you beyond essentially everyone short of the Living Tribunal. There is no way, Earth could have a bunch of people running around with that kind of power and the Cosmics not take notice. Especially, when you have people in the cases of Jim Jaspers and Legion who have traditionally not been responsible with the power. Hell, the underlying theme behind this Infinity event is the fact that the Builders believe the Earth needs to be destroyed in order to protect the universe. They don't feel that way because Earth has a few reality warpers. They fear the shenanigans that people like Reed Richards get into far more than anything that Franklin Richards has done.

B that's just plot. The writers can't have Living Tribunal stepping in every other issue. Shit would get boring and tedious. Same way that when Age of Apocalypse or Age of Ultron happens, they conveniently just forget that these reality warpers exist. They're tryna tell a story and don't want shit interfering really.

Another "in-universe" explanation could be simply:

1. They keep each other in check. crazy Legion won't warp what Jim Jaspers doesn't want him to. Scarlet Witch might also have something to say about Jaspers's warp and has Franklin Richards to back her up. Or something similar

2. Most of them have the potential to be above Cosmics, and maybe Cosmics don't want to stir the pot and be warped away or killed. If Legion can warp away Limbo's Elder Gods who are supposedly universal in power with but a thought, who's to say he can't TRY and warp away Eternity. Maybe it's the risk reward thing.

It's impossible to tell because inconsistencies litter comics like crazy with all these new writers. Hell since Marquis the Death, for some reason, Doom's yet to use his power that can kill a Universal Reality Warper like Marquis the Death, and the power he displayed to kill a Watcher. It's like they totally forgot about it, but it's still canon. Best is to chalk it up to plot and keep it moving IMO.

You now have a valid argument...I understand what you're saying now, but listen...

1. LT is a plot device. When he is spoken of we know its HUGE...when he isn't we can determine that it isn't such a big deal. There was nothing that a reality warper could have done to deter what Ultron had done! Ultron in the Avengers tie in was tanking time alterations like nothingness from Kang the Conquerer. He called every version of the avengers there has ever bee n and They couldn't do shit except PLOT on how to avoid the loss.

2. Reality Warping, in my mind, is a bit overrated. I have only ever seen Franklin use it effectively...even Jim Jaspers wasn't doing any damage. He was warping to defend or avoid...he warped Fury into captivity. Jim Jaspers can't warp from imagination...being able to be taken to unspace and held captive their makes him much less dope...anyone can teleport him to unspace...Nate and Franklin are the top reality warpers in my mind...Hyperstorm didn't stand a fucking chance against Galactus. Warping would be hard pressed to register on LT levels. You are over estimating the power of warping. Franklin and Hyperstorm use their Psionics and energy/matter manipulation to a much larger degree than they do Warping...Even Franklin creating a pocket universe was in defense of the other heroes. He absorbs energy...he turns weapons into flowers and shit...that's defense. They will never register on that level...Franklin and Hyperstorm do this with their other powers as well. Legion didn't warp the elder god's at all.

3. Reality warper's don't have invulnerability so beating them isn't impossible also their is a scale for warpers.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

B that's just plot. The writers can't have Living Tribunal stepping in every other issue. Shit would get boring and tedious. Same way that when Age of Apocalypse or Age of Ultron happens, they conveniently just forget that these reality warpers exist. They're tryna tell a story and don't want shit interfering really.

Another "in-universe" explanation could be simply:

1. They keep each other in check. crazy Legion won't warp what Jim Jaspers doesn't want him to. Scarlet Witch might also have something to say about Jaspers's warp and has Franklin Richards to back her up. Or something similar

2. Most of them have the potential to be above Cosmics, and maybe Cosmics don't want to stir the pot and be warped away or killed. If Legion can warp away Limbo's Elder Gods who are supposedly universal in power with but a thought, who's to say he can't TRY and warp away Eternity. Maybe it's the risk reward thing.

It's impossible to tell because inconsistencies litter comics like crazy with all these new writers. Hell since Marquis the Death, for some reason, Doom's yet to use his power that can kill a Universal Reality Warper like Marquis the Death, and the power he displayed to kill a Watcher. It's like they totally forgot about it, but it's still canon. Best is to chalk it up to plot and keep it moving IMO.

Come on man, you can't keep going back and forth with the "plot" argument. If you're going to dismiss facts because of "plot" then stop bringing up all these dumb losses Galactus has had because of "plot." And yes, almost every loss he's ever taken to the heroes were plot induced.

As for the rest of the stuff you said up there, it's just useless speculation. There is nothing whatsoever to back any of that up. It's just you coming up with stuff to try and support your stance. I can make up suppositions that would counter everything you say, but in the end both sides would be meaningless because they aren't supported by anything.

The facts are:

Reality warping has been shown to be beneath the notice of high level Cosmics.

Cosmics have been shown to be immune to reality warping.

Almost none of your examples of the "great feats" of these reality warpers involved high level cosmics.

None of those reality warpers you named have been shown to operate on the same standard level has cosmics. I.E. you named a bunch of high end feats of those characters while planetary, star system, and even galactic level manipulations are painted as routine for high level cosmics.

The ability to create pocket universes has no bearing on a character's power in the greater 616 universe.

Also, you're discounting the fact that Galactus is also a reality warper. You like to bring up the fact that Doom stole Galactus' power, but seem to be forgetting that when he did he was unintentionally bending reality around him to fit his desires. So again, just because Galactus doesn't do a lot of the irresponsible crap we see from the human characters doesn't mean he can't.