Your God and His Illusion of choice.

[VIBE]

I see what you're saying, if I choose left then that was already known by God so that was already paved for me to take anyway so it's not free will. All in all it is. God knows everything, we do not. If I knew everything I was to do before I did it then that wouldn't be free will. But we aren't GOD at all, we're nothing but sinful human beings. What we choose we have choices. Just because I don't choose another means it's an "illusion" whoever wrote this was trying to be smart.

What about those that choose, sin, then go to God for salvation, then go back to sin, then go back to God? Couple of years in each one of sin and God? Is either one an "illusion" ??

How could it be? That person chose both, living each choice for a while. So where is the illusion?

To US, the PEOPLE we have OUR free will. Just because God knows everything doesn't mean that WE don't have it.

Can you cite a verse that states we DON'T have free will? Because you do realize, if we didn't then we would all do GOD's WILL and WE WOULD ALL BE WORSHIPING HIM. WE WOULD BE DOING WHAT THE BIBLE PREACHES. BUT, we don't. Why? We have the choice of to do or not to do.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

I see what you're saying, if I choose left then that was already known by God so that was already paved for me to take anyway so it's not free will. All in all it is. God knows everything, we do not. If I knew everything I was to do before I did it then that wouldn't be free will. But we aren't GOD at all, we're nothing but sinful human beings. What we choose we have choices. Just because I don't choose another means it's an "illusion" whoever wrote this was trying to be smart.

It's not trying to be smart, if you are confronted with two options, but are already told to go one way, that second choice wasn't a choice nor option but seriously there to give you the illusion of choice.

What about those that choose, sin, then go to God for salvation, then go back to sin, then go back to God? Couple of years in each one of sin and God? Is either one an "illusion" ??

You don't choose sin, if God knew you were going to be a sinner 1,000 years before you were born, you were going to be a sinner. You not ending up a sinner would have gone against God's plan and therefore would have made the all knowing part a lie.

How could it be? That person chose both, living each choice for a while. So where is the illusion?

Because it was God's plan, he forced them into trying both, gave the Illusion that they had a decision, and in essence forced them into the decision they made because if he hadn't, he would not have known what would happen and therefore isn't all knowing like I've been saying.

To US, the PEOPLE we have OUR free will. Just because God knows everything doesn't mean that WE don't have it.

No we don't I explained this in my opening post.

Can you cite a verse that states we DON'T have free will? Because you do realize, if we didn't then we would all do GOD's WILL and WE WOULD ALL BE WORSHIPING HIM. WE WOULD BE DOING WHAT THE BIBLE PREACHES. BUT, we don't. Why? We have the choice of to do or not to do.

It's all through the place. When God has to words like, Why, How, Where, Should, What, etc... he doesn't know. Your only argument could be he was being a dickhead and trying to get people to tattle tell on themselves but come on. It's just one of those things in the bible where one verse says one thing and another verse says something else but you Christians will find a way to distort things to make them seem correct.

 

[VIBE]

It's not trying to be smart, if you are confronted with two options, but are already told to go one way, that second choice wasn't a choice nor option but seriously there to give you the illusion of choice.

You don't choose sin, if God knew you were going to be a sinner 1,000 years before you were born, you were going to be a sinner. You not ending up a sinner would have gone against God's plan and therefore would have made the all knowing part a lie.

Because it was God's plan, he forced them into trying both, gave the Illusion that they had a decision, and in essence forced them into the decision they made because if he hadn't, he would not have known what would happen and therefore isn't all knowing like I've been saying.

No we don't I explained this in my opening post.

It's all through the place. When God has to words like, Why, How, Where, Should, What, etc... he doesn't know. Your only argument could be he was being a dickhead and trying to get people to tattle tell on themselves but come on. It's just one of those things in the bible where one verse says one thing and another verse says something else but you Christians will find a way to distort things to make them seem correct.

1. So I'm told where to go by God? You're told too? How, what I choose isn't based on God but myself. God's voice doesn't come to my head and speak for my decision, God doesn't appear to me and tell me what to do. So I make my own choice, it's upon my feeling, mind etc. It's free for me to take.

2. God's plan isn't for anyone to be a sinner, where do you get that? Throughout the bible He wants the word to be spread, for everyone to have salvation. John 3:16 says, FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD

He loves the WORLD, if you love someone you don't want them to do bad. You want them to do good. Although he knows the outcome to our lives, it's us that don't. We again, LEARN from them, GROW from them, CHANGE from them. It's simple. If a sinner dies a sinner, then it's upon that person. Not God. God doesn't interrupt our lives in that way, otherwise we would all again, be robots to God and there would be no point for evil, bad, sin to exist.

3. So God forces us to sin and forces us to choose Him? Again, you're wrong. God doesn't FORCE anyone. As my verses in TX's thread show. He has given choice, ex, "If you should choose God, then that is good and you shall be saved". "If you choose sin, then you shall perish". The key word is IF. IF = a possibility of choice. There cannot be free will without choice, that's what makes free will, FREE. We're free upon our OWN WILL.

4. How is God being a "dick"? Like I said, He comes to our level of emotion and thought. It's like when your child did something, you know what they did but you still ask "what did you do", why? Is that YOU being a "dick" to your child? No. It's a question you ask so that when answered, you explain the situation, you teach a lesson about such a thing.

I don't distort anything, scripture isn't very hard to read and understand. I take what it says and interpret it to what it means.

 

[Chike]

I think you're confusing All Knowing with All doing. If god just knows, but didn't create the events himself, he's just all knowing. But if he did create the events, then yea he is all doing and free will is an illusion...

 

[ThaChozenWun]

I think you're confusing All Knowing with All doing. If god just knows, but didn't create the events himself, he's just all knowing. But if he did create the events, then yea he is all doing and free will is an illusion...

But the point is, if he knows what your doing ahead of time, then you cannot choose the other when the time comes.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

1. So I'm told where to go by God? You're told too? How, what I choose isn't based on God but myself. God's voice doesn't come to my head and speak for my decision, God doesn't appear to me and tell me what to do. So I make my own choice, it's upon my feeling, mind etc. It's free for me to take.

In real life No. In the bible is 100% true and fact life yup that's what I'm saying. God may not pop up from behind the curtain and say "Ayo!!!! You doing the wrong thing" but if he already knows whats happening before the time comes than that is whats going to happen because it is his will at that point making it happen because you cannot change what he already sees.

2. God's plan isn't for anyone to be a sinner, where do you get that? Throughout the bible He wants the word to be spread, for everyone to have salvation. John 3:16 says, FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD

Creating Evil is a hell of a way to show that.

He loves the WORLD, if you love someone you don't want them to do bad. You want them to do good. Although he knows the outcome to our lives, it's us that don't. We again, LEARN from them, GROW from them, CHANGE from them. It's simple. If a sinner dies a sinner, then it's upon that person. Not God. God doesn't interrupt our lives in that way, otherwise we would all again, be robots to God and there would be no point for evil, bad, sin to exist.

He doesn't love the world. No where does it say God loves everyone and the world.

3. So God forces us to sin and forces us to choose Him? Again, you're wrong. God doesn't FORCE anyone. As my verses in TX's thread show. He has given choice, ex, "If you should choose God, then that is good and you shall be saved". "If you choose sin, then you shall perish". The key word is IF. IF = a possibility of choice. There cannot be free will without choice, that's what makes free will, FREE. We're free upon our OWN WILL.

Stop trying to work around the point. If god already knows then that action is predetermined.

4. How is God being a "dick"? Like I said, He comes to our level of emotion and thought. It's like when your child did something, you know what they did but you still ask "what did you do", why? Is that YOU being a "dick" to your child? No. It's a question you ask so that when answered, you explain the situation, you teach a lesson about such a thing.

If my child does something I'm not going to show my power by saying "tell me what you did....." I know what they did so why waste time.

I don't distort anything, scripture isn't very hard to read and understand. I take what it says and interpret it to what it means.

Apparently it is. You take shit all the time and construe it to fit your need. You take shit and decide what is literal and what isn't, you believe the book is 100% correct even after being told by mouth for a long time before being written down, and then still believe it to be 100% true after many interpretations of it.

 

[motrilla]

I agree with the t/s this is why I believe it is not possible for there to be a god to answer our prayers create miracles etc... there are so many contradictions in religion and if you believe in it that means for the most part you have blind faith

 

[VIBE]

Creating Evil is a hell of a way to show that.

Without good, can you know evil? Without evil, can you know good? If so, how? Either cannot exist without another.

He doesn't love the world. No where does it say God loves everyone and the world.

So you just want to skip over John 3:16?

Stop trying to work around the point. If god already knows then that action is predetermined.

What point? You try to give me a point and I show you a freedom of choice, it's point blank.

If my child does something I'm not going to show my power by saying "tell me what you did....." I know what they did so why waste time.

HA! EVERY parent has asked, "WHAT DID YOU DO!!" more than ONCE. It's not about YOUR time but about TEACHING something.

Apparently it is. You take shit all the time and construe it to fit your need. You take shit and decide what is literal and what isn't, you believe the book is 100% correct even after being told by mouth for a long time before being written down, and then still believe it to be 100% true after many interpretations of it.

It fits my need because I understand. You've tried and tried to show all the bad, but you don't fully read it or misunderstand it THEN you make it something it DOESN'T mean. I've done nothing to CHANGE the verse, I just explain it. If you have a hard time just read the ESV or something.

Yes, it is 100% true. This is God's word, God's book.

 

[supaman4321]

A very good pdf file called fate & destiny that talks about the concepts in islam can be viewed with adobe or downloaded here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...th6Et6H48e6OKvGng&sig2=KoHDAKKvLSJfXlCipw8NFg

We can discuss it further if anybody reads it

Salaam

 

[Chike]

But the point is, if he knows what your doing ahead of time, then you cannot choose the other when the time comes.

Why would you choose the other if it's not what you are going to choose though? lol It's not that you can't, it's that you're not going to. Remember, time is actually an illusion. All existence happens at the same time. Our brains just don't perceive it that way.

 

[VIBE]

Why would you choose the other if it's not what you are going to choose though? lol It's not that you can't, it's that you're not going to. Remember, time is actually an illusion. All existence happens at the same time. Our brains just don't perceive it that way.

Revelation 4 is taking place in eternity outside of time and space as we know it. There is no clock in Revelation 4 and its not thousands of years in the future.

This conversation I am typing up here has already happened. Its fixed in eternity but relevant to you or me its a variable. I could have proceeded to tell you off or made a valid effort to answer your question but neither one of use really knows the outcome. However, God already knows the outcome of this dialogue we are having because its "fixed" in eternity. Its already happened.

The scene in Revelation 4 is not future but has already "happened" and is fixed in eternity. We appear to be "waiting" to realize the actual throne room event but John experienced it and then jumped back into time and space writing about it as if it were a future event because we cant comprehend eternity.

As someone else wrote, about God, time, future etc...

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

In that context nobody has free will

 

[TX_Made713]

In that context nobody has free will

according to the bible did we really have free will from the start?

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

according to the bible did we really have free will from the start?

We've always had it, imo it's just a matter of what perspective you have of "free will" whether it's free or not.