Why is hard for people to let go a belief in a god?

[zombie]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

 

[Jabu_Rule]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

 

[zombie]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

 

[Jabu_Rule]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

 

[zombie]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

 

[Jabu_Rule]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

Lol, smh. Do you know anything about odds? Are you implying that your belief as you practiced it kept you out the bin because you were true believer? You missed my entire point. So i guess those people that were left to rot on your mountain weren't true believers. You seem to be ignoring fact that people have found success (I never mentioned money) and happiness without your doctrine, so how does that support the validity of your doctrine. It tells me that your doctrine isn't required to arrive at that point. You can make connections joining a frat or in school. You can make connections in life just being a descent and approachable, and knowledgeable person. Give yourself some credit. Your requirements of connecting with people seems limited. Is your religion so stringent with the connections it generates that it ignores and individuals talent and human characteristics?

 

[zombie]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

Lol, smh. Do you know anything about odds? Are you implying that your belief as you practiced it kept you out the bin because you were true believer? You missed my entire point. So i guess those people that were left to rot on your mountain weren't true believers. You seem to be ignoring fact that people have found success (I never mentioned money) and happiness without your doctrine, so how does that support the validity of your doctrine. It tells me that your doctrine isn't required to arrive at that point. You can make connections joining a frat or in school. You can make connections in life just being a descent and approachable, and knowledgeable person. Give yourself some credit. Your requirements of connecting with people seems limited. Is your religion so stringent with the connections it generates that it ignores and individuals talent and human characteristics?

I am saying that my belief Helped me when nothing else could have, but it did not promise me the nice physical things I enjoy ,it rains on those who believe and those who don't. Death comes to all even the innocent. Jesus is the perfect example of that.

The kinds of connections that are made by religion is unlike any other. These connections are not requirements they are extras just like the money. You can have every thing in this world without god or you can have all the good things in this world with god. Man is wonderful we are great. But god is greater. Belief in God keeps man ego in control.

What you really get from belief is a calmness of mind, a joy and a fearlessness that is beyond anything words can describe and a deep deep love and unselfish reason for being. It changes your reality

 

[alissowack]

That does not mean people are not afraid. Most times, fear is irrational and comes from misunderstanding.

When I made that post, it was in respect to fearing the unknown only. I wasn't saying that there isn't other reasons to be afraid of anything else. You are correct that fear can come from a misunderstanding. But, you made it seem as if there was reason to fear something that no one has even pondered on.

These ancients did not yet fully understand natural phenomena. They explained it by attributing its happenings to the will of god(s). They prayed and sacrificed offerings to appease the god(s) in attempt to avoid natural disasters. Naturally, a person's fear of something increases when there is no complete knowledge of what is feared. As understanding increases, our fear decreases, in most situations. You do not fear lightning because you know enough about it to understand its causes, what it is and how being struck can be avoided.

People fear death because it is the destruction of the ego. No one has experienced death except the dead. It is the ultimate unknown and in fact it is one of the top frightening things for American people alongside public speaking. Religious commitment increases as people age. Coincidence???

I don't particularly see how an increase in knowledge gets rid of the fear of the destructive nature of things. The ancient world may have thought the gods were doing this, but they knew what lightning, earthquakes and volcanoes would do if they encountered them. My understanding of what they are is not going to make me go out into a thunderstorm, go camp out on the San Andreas Fault or try to scoop up lava with my bare hands from Kilauea. If anything, it is a healthy fear...one of respect for the elements.

As far as why people fear death...it is so much more to that than a play on the ego. It just sounds like it is an embarrassment if someone somehow knew that their dying was going to cramp their style. Fear of death is in those who think that in their death, they will lose all the things that made life worth living.

There are but not many are solid and none are based on enough empirical evidence, which would then spill over into scientific explanations.

This is where it helps to know what type of argument is being presented. There are arguments made that are not about providing empirical evidence. Yet, when the argument is presented, it is being interpreted as empirical evidence by those against the argument about God's Existence. It's like...because someone presents something to be philosophically and logically true, then it means they proved that God exist on a empirical level...when it's not the case.

 

[alissowack]

I don't think it is clear what you mean by the unknown. If what is unknown is simply something that no one has discovered or experienced, then there is no reason to fear it. It just may be that the ancient world feared what it meant to be caught in an earthquake or struck by lightning according to religious texts but not whether they know the science behind it. I would even go as far to say that death wouldn't be feared if it is just something that hasn't been discovered or experienced. It is fearing the things the religious associate death that is more paralyzing. Besides, I don't think it would be any more comfortable getting struck by lightning if I knew "God did it" or that there is a build-up of electricity that caused it. In either case, I don't want to get struck because I don't want to die.

Some atheists make the mistake that every theist is making a scientific argument. It may be that there are philosophical and logical reasons to conclude that God exist. It wouldn't clear things up, but it would help if they knew what type of argument is being presented.

@Oceanic already made the statement that he ultimate fear is what occurs post death. We actually learned to harness the power of lightning by understanding it and we still fear it because of it's ability to fry you regardless of it's origin. No one knows what occurs post death. Even those who claimed they were dead weren't completely brain dead. I think people do know but don't want to accept that this is the one and oly life so they grasp on to something that promises a post life. Philosophy ponders while Science investigates. For instance, Philosophy pondered many human traits and why we did what we do, while science found the origins of why those traits occur and their necessity in surviving. Just because people don't know something, that doesn't give them the pass to just make shit up and indoctrinate others to believe what they came up with as an excuse because it's soothing to the soul.

Logic would dictate that you can't claim a pagan God is a lie on the same basis that can be easily applied to your beliefs. You erase all potential correct assertions based on the evidence at hand. You wonder how accurate something is why you find that what was once considered genuine is now considered a metaphor or an event was claimed to occur from a higher power in a book but excavations and investigations showed it to be just another day in nature. If there is no evidence, then you don't make any conclusions. If there is, then you postulate a theory and try to prove it. If the evidence is obviously written by man based on their individual and then consolidated pondering or grand dreaming, then you take it with a grain of salt and ask for a show of proof, like turning on a light switch via harnessed electricity.

The funny thing is, practices that were considered philosophy at a time was actually Science and Mathematics because even the religious minded at the time investigated and showed their claims via theorems but then were burned at the stake. You can use Philosophy to argue the ethics of applying scientific discoveries on society and the means by which one obtains those discoveries. You don't require religion to do that. You do require an awareness of societal harm by being knowledgeable of the science.

You are doing exactly what I was saying. There are philosophical and logical arguments for the existence of God, but you are only interested in the scientific argument...which put theists in a position to argue for something they are not making a case for. Coming to a philosophical and logical conclusion of the existence of a deity is not evidence. But, it helps to see that when people do think about the existence of a deity, it's not just about something miraculous or some sneaky way to indoctrinate people.

Present these arguments please. It is just an argument of convenience if you aren't using the scientific method. What else is there? You can show me a formula if you wish. Well how did one come up with that theory? Should we stick to the tenants of that theory when we know that it's origin was conceived in ignorance? The way we observe the universe is through science regardless if we call what we find God. Until then I'll keep it moving but the fable that people currently put forward is that a grand consciousness is needed for the universe to exist. I say, prove it. If you can't, what's the God religion based on?

If you can prove that there is something post death, that can't be dismissed by what we know through science, then please let me know? Don't tell that it has to be, it just has to.

Most people get into religion by way of indoctrination. The share fact that you are ostracized if you are not part of a religion and are surrounded by this widespread practice makes people joiners. And then there is the cult level brainwashing that took hold centuries ago in old America which found root in waring nations that forced their religions on natives. This is but a few ways in which religion initially passed from old wives tales and sacrificial promises; into emperor level forced indoctrination.

Well...consider the cosmological argument. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause. The second premise says the universe began to exist. The conclusion says the universe has a cause.

Now logically it checks out...but it is not a slam dunk in respect to proving the existence of God. But, because of a misunderstanding of what the argument is, it is dismissed as an attempt to provide scientific evidence. Some of those against the argument don't want to argue that way for whatever reason and think all that is being done is further religious causes.

 

[alissowack]

I meant that only in respect to the existence of God. I didn't mean it for "everything else".

Again, not completely. Not everybody wants the same thing; even if God did exist, the God that hypothetically would exist may not be the kind of God that the theists wanted. Atheists don't really "want" anything out of the God theory. If God proved his existence tomorrow, I could not say that his existence was what I wanted or didn't want. I just didn't believe in it.

...and no, we don't have respect for the idea for we think everything requires some sort of "test"...

Even the Bible tells its readers to test everything:

Test all things; hold fast that which is good.

If we cannot test something by way of our senses either directly or indirectly, why should we hold it to be truth?

Being a theist or an atheist doesn't require that you have a preference. They both assert that God either exist or doesn't exist. If God exists, generally speaking, the theists would get what they want. Now whether God is the God of Christianity, Islam, Mormonism and other theistic religions is where there are preferences to consider...hmmm...if atheism is proven to be true, what does that make of definitions such as strong and weak atheism? Would they no longer exist?

What you are doing with that verse is what a lot of religious people do...and that is take it out of context. I think you have a limited sense of the word "test". I could be wrong, but when you think test, you are thinking in a laboratory setting with all the bells and whistles (I put test in quotations to stress that very reason in the previous post). Test can be...a show of patience, perseverance, trust, faith...and others in order to come to the truth. A lot of scientific discoveries wouldn't come to be if it wasn't for those things yet you seem to think it is only by the instruments themselves they will provide the truth.

 

[Jabu_Rule]

I don't think it is clear what you mean by the unknown. If what is unknown is simply something that no one has discovered or experienced, then there is no reason to fear it. It just may be that the ancient world feared what it meant to be caught in an earthquake or struck by lightning according to religious texts but not whether they know the science behind it. I would even go as far to say that death wouldn't be feared if it is just something that hasn't been discovered or experienced. It is fearing the things the religious associate death that is more paralyzing. Besides, I don't think it would be any more comfortable getting struck by lightning if I knew "God did it" or that there is a build-up of electricity that caused it. In either case, I don't want to get struck because I don't want to die.

Some atheists make the mistake that every theist is making a scientific argument. It may be that there are philosophical and logical reasons to conclude that God exist. It wouldn't clear things up, but it would help if they knew what type of argument is being presented.

@Oceanic already made the statement that he ultimate fear is what occurs post death. We actually learned to harness the power of lightning by understanding it and we still fear it because of it's ability to fry you regardless of it's origin. No one knows what occurs post death. Even those who claimed they were dead weren't completely brain dead. I think people do know but don't want to accept that this is the one and oly life so they grasp on to something that promises a post life. Philosophy ponders while Science investigates. For instance, Philosophy pondered many human traits and why we did what we do, while science found the origins of why those traits occur and their necessity in surviving. Just because people don't know something, that doesn't give them the pass to just make shit up and indoctrinate others to believe what they came up with as an excuse because it's soothing to the soul.

Logic would dictate that you can't claim a pagan God is a lie on the same basis that can be easily applied to your beliefs. You erase all potential correct assertions based on the evidence at hand. You wonder how accurate something is why you find that what was once considered genuine is now considered a metaphor or an event was claimed to occur from a higher power in a book but excavations and investigations showed it to be just another day in nature. If there is no evidence, then you don't make any conclusions. If there is, then you postulate a theory and try to prove it. If the evidence is obviously written by man based on their individual and then consolidated pondering or grand dreaming, then you take it with a grain of salt and ask for a show of proof, like turning on a light switch via harnessed electricity.

The funny thing is, practices that were considered philosophy at a time was actually Science and Mathematics because even the religious minded at the time investigated and showed their claims via theorems but then were burned at the stake. You can use Philosophy to argue the ethics of applying scientific discoveries on society and the means by which one obtains those discoveries. You don't require religion to do that. You do require an awareness of societal harm by being knowledgeable of the science.

You are doing exactly what I was saying. There are philosophical and logical arguments for the existence of God, but you are only interested in the scientific argument...which put theists in a position to argue for something they are not making a case for. Coming to a philosophical and logical conclusion of the existence of a deity is not evidence. But, it helps to see that when people do think about the existence of a deity, it's not just about something miraculous or some sneaky way to indoctrinate people.

Present these arguments please. It is just an argument of convenience if you aren't using the scientific method. What else is there? You can show me a formula if you wish. Well how did one come up with that theory? Should we stick to the tenants of that theory when we know that it's origin was conceived in ignorance? The way we observe the universe is through science regardless if we call what we find God. Until then I'll keep it moving but the fable that people currently put forward is that a grand consciousness is needed for the universe to exist. I say, prove it. If you can't, what's the God religion based on?

If you can prove that there is something post death, that can't be dismissed by what we know through science, then please let me know? Don't tell that it has to be, it just has to.

Most people get into religion by way of indoctrination. The share fact that you are ostracized if you are not part of a religion and are surrounded by this widespread practice makes people joiners. And then there is the cult level brainwashing that took hold centuries ago in old America which found root in waring nations that forced their religions on natives. This is but a few ways in which religion initially passed from old wives tales and sacrificial promises; into emperor level forced indoctrination.

Well...consider the cosmological argument. The first premise says that everything that begins to exist has a cause. The second premise says the universe began to exist. The conclusion says the universe has a cause.

Now logically it checks out...but it is not a slam dunk in respect to proving the existence of God. But, because of a misunderstanding of what the argument is, it is dismissed as an attempt to provide scientific evidence. Some of those against the argument don't want to argue that way for whatever reason and think all that is being done is further religious causes.

You're assuming that there must be a beginning. Just because we formed from various elements and those elements formed from various pressures doesn't mean that there wasn't an underlining unconscious form of the universe there all along as you claim God to be which had no purpose to create. Many present a claim that the universe contracts and expands or that other universes came before. If you look at it like that, the universe has elements that are hold overs from older forms of itself. If you claim everything must have a beginning, then so must God.

But theist claim God always existed. You can make the same claim from the universe always existing in many forms. There is also a theory put out that the universe did indeed form from nothing. The many dimensions that are claimed today are all facets of various conditions of this universe with no absolute claim for an outside knowledge existing and thinking without taking the form that allows humans to exist and think. If you aren't attempting to provide scientific evidence for your claims, then your claims shouldn't be merited as absolute as religions do because nothing was proved. There are many scientific positions that shouldn't be taking as absolute either like string theory. String theory is considered a religious approach because people are using factual data to come to grand erroneous conclusions. At least they're trying and they also don't make absolute claims with religious doctrine.

 

[Jabu_Rule]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

Lol, smh. Do you know anything about odds? Are you implying that your belief as you practiced it kept you out the bin because you were true believer? You missed my entire point. So i guess those people that were left to rot on your mountain weren't true believers. You seem to be ignoring fact that people have found success (I never mentioned money) and happiness without your doctrine, so how does that support the validity of your doctrine. It tells me that your doctrine isn't required to arrive at that point. You can make connections joining a frat or in school. You can make connections in life just being a descent and approachable, and knowledgeable person. Give yourself some credit. Your requirements of connecting with people seems limited. Is your religion so stringent with the connections it generates that it ignores and individuals talent and human characteristics?

I am saying that my belief Helped me when nothing else could have, but it did not promise me the nice physical things I enjoy ,it rains on those who believe and those who don't. Death comes to all even the innocent. Jesus is the perfect example of that.

The kinds of connections that are made by religion is unlike any other. These connections are not requirements they are extras just like the money. You can have every thing in this world without god or you can have all the good things in this world with god. Man is wonderful we are great. But god is greater. Belief in God keeps man ego in control.

What you really get from belief is a calmness of mind, a joy and a fearlessness that is beyond anything words can describe and a deep deep love and unselfish reason for being. It changes your reality

You keep bringing up money, but you were the one proud of your accomplishments through God because 'You came from a third world nation were and was literally born on mountain. Now you don't even have to work if I don't want too.' This is you showing that you are getting it because of God and your religious connections while ignoring those who aren't even with those same beliefs in a God. Saying death comes to all doesn't negate the suffering that i mentioned which in turn you seem to be proud of avoiding because God blessed you. A very selfish position that i see many religious people take.

God blessed me so I'm doing my thing and you should pray harder. I'm sure the ingenuity of man takes place to grant you your position off the mountain top and laws damping our egos. But this ego that you speak of seems to imply that man shouldn't attempt to better their positions without this God that you have no proof for. It seems you can change your reality, be unselfish, and find peace with religion standing as an unnecessary component to obtaining those things. Scientology can say all that you just said which proves to me that convincing yourself that something is true to sooth your fears and joining in group think can benefit an individual that knows how to take advantage of those situations for personal gain.

 

[zombie]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

Lol, smh. Do you know anything about odds? Are you implying that your belief as you practiced it kept you out the bin because you were true believer? You missed my entire point. So i guess those people that were left to rot on your mountain weren't true believers. You seem to be ignoring fact that people have found success (I never mentioned money) and happiness without your doctrine, so how does that support the validity of your doctrine. It tells me that your doctrine isn't required to arrive at that point. You can make connections joining a frat or in school. You can make connections in life just being a descent and approachable, and knowledgeable person. Give yourself some credit. Your requirements of connecting with people seems limited. Is your religion so stringent with the connections it generates that it ignores and individuals talent and human characteristics?

I am saying that my belief Helped me when nothing else could have, but it did not promise me the nice physical things I enjoy ,it rains on those who believe and those who don't. Death comes to all even the innocent. Jesus is the perfect example of that.

The kinds of connections that are made by religion is unlike any other. These connections are not requirements they are extras just like the money. You can have every thing in this world without god or you can have all the good things in this world with god. Man is wonderful we are great. But god is greater. Belief in God keeps man ego in control.

What you really get from belief is a calmness of mind, a joy and a fearlessness that is beyond anything words can describe and a deep deep love and unselfish reason for being. It changes your reality

You keep bringing up money, but you were the one proud of your accomplishments through God because 'You came from a third world nation were and was literally born on mountain. Now you don't even have to work if I don't want too.' This is you showing that you are getting it because of God and your religious connections while ignoring those who aren't even with those same beliefs in a God. Saying death comes to all doesn't negate the suffering that i mentioned which in turn you seem to be proud of avoiding because God blessed you. A very selfish position that i see many religious people take.

God blessed me so I'm doing my thing and you should pray harder. I'm sure the ingenuity of man takes place to grant you your position off the mountain top and laws damping our egos. But this ego that you speak of seems to imply that man shouldn't attempt to better their positions without this God that you have no proof for. It seems you can change your reality, be unselfish, and find peace with religion standing as an unnecessary component to obtaining those things. Scientology can say all that you just said which proves to me that convincing yourself that something is true to sooth your fears and joining in group think can benefit an individual that knows how to take advantage of those situations for personal gain.

No one avoids suffering I brought up money because it is some thing I believe you can gain by following the wisdom of my religion, this is not to suggest that it's the only way but it was the way I chose because it was the only way for me. The money however is extra prosperity happens almost by accident. Some people follow my path and still stay broke.

God wants man to strive for a better existence ,better yourself. But never forget god. The belief in the concept god will allow you to suffer anything while you are bettering yourself and you will do it with a smile on your face. It will allow you to fight the same way.

Really mans ego pride and selflove are the reasons for our trouble. And I am not talking on a one one one level here. Look fact is theism has saved countless people from the worst this world has to offer. Saved them in mind and or in body. It has inspired greatness in all arts, the greatest arts. And makes most people feel safe in a way non theism cannot. God makes everything deeper

 

[zombie]

@ furious one you can have your way to the good life without god. But I got my good life with god I see no reason why I should drop what I know for a fact helped me. I am almost 1oo% sure your fight will not be as joyful and painfull as mines was. Because I had god with me and you will have nothing but yourself.

 

[alissowack]

You're assuming that there must be a beginning. Just because we formed from various elements and those elements formed from various pressures doesn't mean that there wasn't an underlining unconscious form of the universe there all along as you claim God to be which had no purpose to create. Many present a claim that the universe contracts and expands or that other universes came before. If you look at it like that, the universe has elements that are hold overs from older forms of itself. If you claim everything must have a beginning, then so must God.

But theist claim God always existed. You can make the same claim from the universe always existing in many forms. There is also a theory put out that the universe did indeed form from nothing. The many dimensions that are claimed today are all facets of various conditions of this universe with no absolute claim for an outside knowledge existing and thinking without taking the form that allows humans to exist and think. If you aren't attempting to provide scientific evidence for your claims, then your claims shouldn't be merited as absolute as religions do because nothing was proved. There are many scientific positions that shouldn't be taking as absolute either like string theory. String theory is considered a religious approach because people are using factual data to come to grand erroneous conclusions. At least they're trying and they also don't make absolute claims with religious doctrine.

But isn't this something that even scientists hold to? They say the universe began with the Big Bang. Your disagreement suggests that the Big Bang is not what set things in motion. It goes both ways. While you are implicitly suggesting that something created or caused God, you are also suggesting that something created or caused the Big Bang...like a bigger bang or something. So...scientists are really lying to the public about the universe having a beginning...or to be specific...an absolute beginning.

I doubt that serious theists are making claims. They are merely saying if God is to exist, this deity exists eternally; that it is a necessity that God is infinite. Something coming from nothing is a bit of a stretch for now you are saying that nothing...can create or cause something. Well, what consist of nothing so it can take any action? And also given that you don't think the universe has a beginning, even "nothing" can't be credited for creating or causing something.

 

[Jabu_Rule]

You're assuming that there must be a beginning. Just because we formed from various elements and those elements formed from various pressures doesn't mean that there wasn't an underlining unconscious form of the universe there all along as you claim God to be which had no purpose to create. Many present a claim that the universe contracts and expands or that other universes came before. If you look at it like that, the universe has elements that are hold overs from older forms of itself. If you claim everything must have a beginning, then so must God.

But theist claim God always existed. You can make the same claim from the universe always existing in many forms. There is also a theory put out that the universe did indeed form from nothing. The many dimensions that are claimed today are all facets of various conditions of this universe with no absolute claim for an outside knowledge existing and thinking without taking the form that allows humans to exist and think. If you aren't attempting to provide scientific evidence for your claims, then your claims shouldn't be merited as absolute as religions do because nothing was proved. There are many scientific positions that shouldn't be taking as absolute either like string theory. String theory is considered a religious approach because people are using factual data to come to grand erroneous conclusions. At least they're trying and they also don't make absolute claims with religious doctrine.

But isn't this something that even scientists hold to? They say the universe began with the Big Bang. Your disagreement suggests that the Big Bang is not what set things in motion. It goes both ways. While you are implicitly suggesting that something created or caused God, you are also suggesting that something created or caused the Big Bang...like a bigger bang or something. So...scientists are really lying to the public about the universe having a beginning...or to be specific...an absolute beginning.

I doubt that serious theists are making claims. They are merely saying if God is to exist, this deity exists eternally; that it is a necessity that God is infinite. Something coming from nothing is a bit of a stretch for now you are saying that nothing...can create or cause something. Well, what consist of nothing so it can take any action? And also given that you don't think the universe has a beginning, even "nothing" can't be credited for creating or causing something.

Scientist make no absolute claims; they investigate, name, and present the data with logical observations that are testable for proof. They formulate a theorem based on the known facts discovered via their investigations. They have a magnitude more info to work with from their prior discoveries unlike theist. Scientist theorize but they aren't settling on that thought, they are attempting to prove it. You can't say theist aren't making claims and then say "God exist because x,y and z because anything else is a stretch." That's making an absolute claim. I state God as presented isn't necessary because of the characteristics one gives God and the goal people think this conscious God has.

If you take away those attributes, then anything that you find that you consider to be an absolute beginning can be named God with no requirement for purpose of consciousness. It isn't implicit that an intelligent or all powerful being is required to start what we have currently when considering the basic characteristics of the universe. You can absolutely ask how a conscious being came about before universal form if you make such claims. I know consciousness to occur in the brain with a combination of elements that were created in the universe from energy\matter. Btw, the big bang isn't about explosions. It fits into the theory of expansion and contraction which is the big crunch or cooling and warming. Still, that theory at least has a leg to stand on.

Scientist have offered equations for the possibility of that theory but I'm sure they will not tell you to create a religion around that. Still yet, they have proved many of the facts in that theory. Nothing refers to state prior to the physical properties of the universe which was close to zero energy\matter with no space\time but produced random quantum fluctuations of particles. The theory is still being studied and no one has settled on it as absolute. Physicist don't actually use the word nothing as a descriptive measure. I'm arguing the question of whether an intelligent being was needed to kick-start the reality or it just is without a focused purpose.

 

[Jabu_Rule]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

Lol, smh. Do you know anything about odds? Are you implying that your belief as you practiced it kept you out the bin because you were true believer? You missed my entire point. So i guess those people that were left to rot on your mountain weren't true believers. You seem to be ignoring fact that people have found success (I never mentioned money) and happiness without your doctrine, so how does that support the validity of your doctrine. It tells me that your doctrine isn't required to arrive at that point. You can make connections joining a frat or in school. You can make connections in life just being a descent and approachable, and knowledgeable person. Give yourself some credit. Your requirements of connecting with people seems limited. Is your religion so stringent with the connections it generates that it ignores and individuals talent and human characteristics?

I am saying that my belief Helped me when nothing else could have, but it did not promise me the nice physical things I enjoy ,it rains on those who believe and those who don't. Death comes to all even the innocent. Jesus is the perfect example of that.

The kinds of connections that are made by religion is unlike any other. These connections are not requirements they are extras just like the money. You can have every thing in this world without god or you can have all the good things in this world with god. Man is wonderful we are great. But god is greater. Belief in God keeps man ego in control.

What you really get from belief is a calmness of mind, a joy and a fearlessness that is beyond anything words can describe and a deep deep love and unselfish reason for being. It changes your reality

You keep bringing up money, but you were the one proud of your accomplishments through God because 'You came from a third world nation were and was literally born on mountain. Now you don't even have to work if I don't want too.' This is you showing that you are getting it because of God and your religious connections while ignoring those who aren't even with those same beliefs in a God. Saying death comes to all doesn't negate the suffering that i mentioned which in turn you seem to be proud of avoiding because God blessed you. A very selfish position that i see many religious people take.

God blessed me so I'm doing my thing and you should pray harder. I'm sure the ingenuity of man takes place to grant you your position off the mountain top and laws damping our egos. But this ego that you speak of seems to imply that man shouldn't attempt to better their positions without this God that you have no proof for. It seems you can change your reality, be unselfish, and find peace with religion standing as an unnecessary component to obtaining those things. Scientology can say all that you just said which proves to me that convincing yourself that something is true to sooth your fears and joining in group think can benefit an individual that knows how to take advantage of those situations for personal gain.

No one avoids suffering I brought up money because it is some thing I believe you can gain by following the wisdom of my religion, this is not to suggest that it's the only way but it was the way I chose because it was the only way for me. The money however is extra prosperity happens almost by accident. Some people follow my path and still stay broke.

God wants man to strive for a better existence ,better yourself. But never forget god. The belief in the concept god will allow you to suffer anything while you are bettering yourself and you will do it with a smile on your face. It will allow you to fight the same way.

Really mans ego pride and selflove are the reasons for our trouble. And I am not talking on a one one one level here. Look fact is theism has saved countless people from the worst this world has to offer. Saved them in mind and or in body. It has inspired greatness in all arts, the greatest arts. And makes most people feel safe in a way non theism cannot. God makes everything deeper

Theism has created wars and burned people at the stake for thinking outside the box with an attempt to better ones existence. I guess you can blame man for that right? Except in the good times. You're idea of pride is not very defined as you can claim that anything that one strives for that doesn't include praise in your god must be a sin. I can only imagine where mankind would be if it wasn't for religious warriors burning manuscripts as they are doing in Timbuktu because they consider them an affront to their God. Everything else you said is your personal feelings and magical ability to attribute everything to the supposed blessings you received that you believe you received, which holds no weight to the question of gods existence.

 

[loch121]

because the world feels cold, lonely,dark, and random when you take God out of the picture.

Either way the world is cold,lonely, and dark

 

[alissowack]

You're assuming that there must be a beginning. Just because we formed from various elements and those elements formed from various pressures doesn't mean that there wasn't an underlining unconscious form of the universe there all along as you claim God to be which had no purpose to create. Many present a claim that the universe contracts and expands or that other universes came before. If you look at it like that, the universe has elements that are hold overs from older forms of itself. If you claim everything must have a beginning, then so must God.

But theist claim God always existed. You can make the same claim from the universe always existing in many forms. There is also a theory put out that the universe did indeed form from nothing. The many dimensions that are claimed today are all facets of various conditions of this universe with no absolute claim for an outside knowledge existing and thinking without taking the form that allows humans to exist and think. If you aren't attempting to provide scientific evidence for your claims, then your claims shouldn't be merited as absolute as religions do because nothing was proved. There are many scientific positions that shouldn't be taking as absolute either like string theory. String theory is considered a religious approach because people are using factual data to come to grand erroneous conclusions. At least they're trying and they also don't make absolute claims with religious doctrine.

But isn't this something that even scientists hold to? They say the universe began with the Big Bang. Your disagreement suggests that the Big Bang is not what set things in motion. It goes both ways. While you are implicitly suggesting that something created or caused God, you are also suggesting that something created or caused the Big Bang...like a bigger bang or something. So...scientists are really lying to the public about the universe having a beginning...or to be specific...an absolute beginning.

I doubt that serious theists are making claims. They are merely saying if God is to exist, this deity exists eternally; that it is a necessity that God is infinite. Something coming from nothing is a bit of a stretch for now you are saying that nothing...can create or cause something. Well, what consist of nothing so it can take any action? And also given that you don't think the universe has a beginning, even "nothing" can't be credited for creating or causing something.

Scientist make no absolute claims; they investigate, name, and present the data with logical observations that are testable for proof. They formulate a theorem based on the known facts discovered via their investigations. They have a magnitude more info to work with from their prior discoveries unlike theist. Scientist theorize but they aren't settling on that thought, they are attempting to prove it. You can't say theist aren't making claims and then say "God exist because x,y and z because anything else is a stretch." That's making an absolute claim. I state God isn't necessary because of the characteristics one gives God and the goal people think this conscious God has. It isn't implicit that an intelligent being is required to start what we have currently when considering the basic characteristics of the universe.

You can absolutely ask how a conscious being came about before universal form if you make such claims. I know consciousness to occur in the brain with a combination of elements that were created in the universe from energy\matter. Btw, the big bang isn't about explosions. It fits into the theory of expansion and contraction which is the big crunch or cooling and warming. Still, that theory at least has a leg to stand on. Scientist have offered equations for the possibility of that theory but I'm sure they will not tell you to create a religion around that.

Still yet, they have proved many of the facts in that theory. Nothing refers to state prior to the physical properties of the universe which was close to zero energy\matter with no space\time but produced random quantum fluctuations of particles. The theory is still being studied and no one has settled on it as absolute. Physicist don't actually use the word nothing as a descriptive measure. I'm arguing the question of whether an intelligent being was needed to kick-start the reality or it just is without a focused purpose.

What I presented was an argument...not a claim. The argument doesn't even mention God. However, given that I believe in God, you took the liberty of saying that is what I meant by presenting the argument. I've even said earlier that the argument doesn't settle things. Something started the universe and the argument only addresses it.

Science is in the business of presenting absolutes. It's nothing wrong with it if the facts present itself. But, you have textbooks that put the Big Bang Theory as the only option in which the universe began. Just the fact that there are no other well-known explanations out there makes it more acceptable as the truth by the public. Yet, you think the universe always existed. That would mean the Big Bang Theory would itself need a theory...and on and on into an infinite regress. As you've mentioned before, this same infinite regress could be made against God, but the theists are saying that it is a necessity for God to always exist. What this necessity means in respect to any religious convictions of these theists has nothing to do with it. There are many theistic religions that do not agree with each other but have common ground on the infinite presence of God.

 

[zombie]

There is no need too, plus you can gain more by theism than from non-theism.

You can gain more from learning things in life than you can gain from theism. Non-theism isn't a thing. It's just the absence of theism. Weren't you just having this discussion in another thread? There is far more out there to fill that non-void left by not being a theist.

I can learn everything this would has to learn and still keep my god. having my belief grounds me and connects me to a larger group it also gives me examples that prove the wisdom of the doctrine.

I came from a third world nation were I was literaly born on mountain. To now I don't even have to work if I don't want too. I survived what I did because I followed the doctrine of my theism. God has not proven to be a hinderence but a help to me and mines.

The absence of theism is not atheism.

I I I I.. The I's have it. Why is it that you must use you awesome situation as proof of God or the wisdom of it's doctrine. You just said you can learn anything, so what you learned didn't get you there? You're skills couldn't connect you to people who require those skills? Smh. I'm glad you followed the doctrine and found great success. Still there are others who did the same and found their dead bodies in a trash bin. Also, you're life story dismisses the chance that somebody could be more successful without following your doctrine?

I can learn anything but what I learned from the world did not get me into the great situation I am in. What I gained from my doctrine was not just money that came but it was never the goal of my doctrine to give me that. I could have ended up in the bin, success is following the doctrine for it's own sake so I still would have won. My doctrine did not only connect me with people who need me but with those I need and don't need.

People can say what they want but I know for a fact that belief has Many enormous benefits

Lol, smh. Do you know anything about odds? Are you implying that your belief as you practiced it kept you out the bin because you were true believer? You missed my entire point. So i guess those people that were left to rot on your mountain weren't true believers. You seem to be ignoring fact that people have found success (I never mentioned money) and happiness without your doctrine, so how does that support the validity of your doctrine. It tells me that your doctrine isn't required to arrive at that point. You can make connections joining a frat or in school. You can make connections in life just being a descent and approachable, and knowledgeable person. Give yourself some credit. Your requirements of connecting with people seems limited. Is your religion so stringent with the connections it generates that it ignores and individuals talent and human characteristics?

I am saying that my belief Helped me when nothing else could have, but it did not promise me the nice physical things I enjoy ,it rains on those who believe and those who don't. Death comes to all even the innocent. Jesus is the perfect example of that.

The kinds of connections that are made by religion is unlike any other. These connections are not requirements they are extras just like the money. You can have every thing in this world without god or you can have all the good things in this world with god. Man is wonderful we are great. But god is greater. Belief in God keeps man ego in control.

What you really get from belief is a calmness of mind, a joy and a fearlessness that is beyond anything words can describe and a deep deep love and unselfish reason for being. It changes your reality

You keep bringing up money, but you were the one proud of your accomplishments through God because 'You came from a third world nation were and was literally born on mountain. Now you don't even have to work if I don't want too.' This is you showing that you are getting it because of God and your religious connections while ignoring those who aren't even with those same beliefs in a God. Saying death comes to all doesn't negate the suffering that i mentioned which in turn you seem to be proud of avoiding because God blessed you. A very selfish position that i see many religious people take.

God blessed me so I'm doing my thing and you should pray harder. I'm sure the ingenuity of man takes place to grant you your position off the mountain top and laws damping our egos. But this ego that you speak of seems to imply that man shouldn't attempt to better their positions without this God that you have no proof for. It seems you can change your reality, be unselfish, and find peace with religion standing as an unnecessary component to obtaining those things. Scientology can say all that you just said which proves to me that convincing yourself that something is true to sooth your fears and joining in group think can benefit an individual that knows how to take advantage of those situations for personal gain.

No one avoids suffering I brought up money because it is some thing I believe you can gain by following the wisdom of my religion, this is not to suggest that it's the only way but it was the way I chose because it was the only way for me. The money however is extra prosperity happens almost by accident. Some people follow my path and still stay broke.

God wants man to strive for a better existence ,better yourself. But never forget god. The belief in the concept god will allow you to suffer anything while you are bettering yourself and you will do it with a smile on your face. It will allow you to fight the same way.

Really mans ego pride and selflove are the reasons for our trouble. And I am not talking on a one one one level here. Look fact is theism has saved countless people from the worst this world has to offer. Saved them in mind and or in body. It has inspired greatness in all arts, the greatest arts. And makes most people feel safe in a way non theism cannot. God makes everything deeper

Theism has created wars and burned people at the stake for thinking outside the box with an attempt to better ones existence. I guess you can blame man for that right? Except in the good times. You're idea of pride is not very defined as you can claim that anything that one strives for that doesn't include praise in your god must be a sin. I can only imagine where mankind would be if it wasn't for religious warriors burning manuscripts as they are doing in Timbuktu because they consider them an affront to their God. Everything else you said is your personal feelings and magical ability to attribute everything to the supposed blessings you received that you believe you received, which holds no weight to the question of gods existence.

I don't care about trying to prove god's existence it is impossible to even fully describe god. I try to never argue for proof of god's existence. What I am telling you is that the god concept is important and humanity is better off with it. Also I never said that anything you strive for without god is a sin. I was trying to explain to you that mankind must never let our power go to our heads. Don't strive for things and just because you get it say fuck god. rom religion.

religion was central to keeping nations together religion pulled the arab out of the sands and the white out of darkness. The mandate of heaven kept china in peace sometimes for centuries. Nothing can replace the motivation given to man by the god concept, in all things it pushes man above and beyond