What Are Your Opinions On the Creation of the State of Israel?

[Olorun22]

Some nigga are fuckin stupid African occupied the land way before some pale mf's came in

 

[janklow]

you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US?

i think you're missing MY point: no, it was not the US. the US didn't control the territory to allow it to be divided up - you may remember in the aftermath of WWII that it was the British and French arguing with us regarding the whole colonial territories issues - and you're overstating the role of the US in early Israel because you really want to squeeze in your CURRENT beef with the US.

Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?

good thing i'm talking about current... oh wait, i'm not talking about current events at all. are we discussing the creation of Israel or current events?

 

[janklow]

as far as pakistan...

so i guess we're sidestepping the issue of whether or not we can fairly call Pakistan a democracy in favor of just bashing the US? because i remain unsure what the grounds are for praising the long-standing tradition of democracy in Pakistan; i think i recall some military-run government there recently...

also, when Pakistan keeps a back channel open to their pet terrorists, they do kind of lose the ability to claim they can't be identified as terrorist-supporting. they promoted terrorism in Kashmir for territorial reasons that have nothing to do with the US screwing Pakistan over. they promoted the growth of groups like the Taliban which, if anything, was Pakistan's ISI screwing US over. it's fine if they want to argue they have to do these things because blah blah blah... but let's not pretend they're the continual victim in the situation.

also... pretty sure we haven't invaded Pakistan

 

[husnain1]

as far as pakistan...

so i guess we're sidestepping the issue of whether or not we can fairly call Pakistan a democracy in favor of just bashing the US? because i remain unsure what the grounds are for praising the long-standing tradition of democracy in Pakistan; i think i recall some military-run government there recently...

also, when Pakistan keeps a back channel open to their pet terrorists, they do kind of lose the ability to claim they can't be identified as terrorist-supporting. they promoted terrorism in Kashmir for territorial reasons that have nothing to do with the US screwing Pakistan over. they promoted the growth of groups like the Taliban which, if anything, was Pakistan's ISI screwing US over. it's fine if they want to argue they have to do these things because blah blah blah... but let's not pretend they're the continual victim in the situation.

also... pretty sure we haven't invaded Pakistan

i love it when Americans speak on issues they have no clue on. everything you said was pure rhetoric. if u dont want to believe pakistan is a democracy thats your problem. I hardly doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over it. LOL dude do me a favor learn something about Pakistan/US history and then come back and talk to me. You talk about having back channels with terrorists? seriously? you DO realize that the the U.S. also has (and uses some of the same) back channels to talk to the "terrorists." The US also trained and armed the taliban to fight against the Soviets so whats your point? Funny how you completely ignored the fact that it wasnt them who invaded us. seriously what do you do they propose sit down and get killed? if thats your solution let me swing by your house and punch you in the face and see if you do nothing. As for Kashmir you once again are showing you dont really know much about the issue so i'll leave it at that/

 

[husnain1]

you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US?

i think you're missing MY point: no, it was not the US. the US didn't control the territory to allow it to be divided up - you may remember in the aftermath of WWII that it was the British and French arguing with us regarding the whole colonial territories issues - and you're overstating the role of the US in early Israel because you really want to squeeze in your CURRENT beef with the US.

Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?

good thing i'm talking about current... oh wait, i'm not talking about current events at all. are we discussing the creation of Israel or current events?

look you can try to re-write history if you want but it doesnt change things. Your way of making your point is to try to understate the role of the US in the creation of Israel but history has shown otherwise. Current events have alot to do with the creation of israel because they testify to the mentality of the US that goes back for decades. You dont just one day wake up and become such a staunch ally of israel.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/roots_of_US-Israel.html

"The United States endorsed the majority report and called on the General Assembly to approve partition. Some dispute exists among scholars as to how vigorously the Truman Administration lobbied for the resolution. Nevertheless, ample evidence exists to indicate that U.S. influence played a critical role in securing the adoption of the partition resolution."

 

[janklow]

i love it when Americans speak on issues they have no clue on.

i love when people think that not being an American gets them automatic knowledge points. and here i was not realizing that being born outside the continental US means you get issued a master's degree in history when you exit the womb.

everything you said was pure rhetoric. if u dont want to believe pakistan is a democracy thats your problem. I hardly doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over it. LOL dude do me a favor learn something about Pakistan/US history and then come back and talk to me.

well, i recall the constitution being suspended, i recall Zia's military takeover, i recall Musharraf being involved in some kind of coup ... look, Pakistan may meet the current technical standard of a democracy. wonderful. let's see what i actually said: "Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable." that seems accurate.

 

[husnain1]

i love it when Americans speak on issues they have no clue on.

i love when people think that not being an American gets them automatic knowledge points. and here i was not realizing that being born outside the continental US means you get issued a master's degree in history when you exit the womb.

everything you said was pure rhetoric. if u dont want to believe pakistan is a democracy thats your problem. I hardly doubt anyone is going to lose sleep over it. LOL dude do me a favor learn something about Pakistan/US history and then come back and talk to me.

well, i recall the constitution being suspended, i recall Zia's military takeover, i recall Musharraf being involved in some kind of coup ... look, Pakistan may meet the current technical standard of a democracy. wonderful. let's see what i actually said: "Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable." that seems accurate.

nice try although i was born, raised, and currently still live in the U.S. I may not have a master's in history but I will have a master's in international affairs soon.

ok so there have a been a few military coups. so I guess that means you're only a democracy as long as you can circumvent your own laws ( such as secret military tribunals, targeted assassinations, torture, etc). All of that doesnt matter because the U.S. is still a "democracy" even though its actually a republic

 

[janklow]

You talk about having back channels with terrorists? seriously? you DO realize that the the U.S. also has (and uses some of the same) back channels to talk to the "terrorists."

the difference here is a) you're claiming that it's ignorant to label them a terrorist country (which i actually didn't do), so the fact of them having such connections to terrorists undermines THAT POINT, and b) the US is not nearly as in bed with the groups we're talking about as the Pakistanis are. sorry.

 

[janklow]

The US also trained and armed the taliban to fight against the Soviets so whats your point? ... As for Kashmir you once again are showing you dont really know much about the issue so i'll leave it at that

please don't give me the "learn something about history" comment and then drop this erroneous talking point. what we call the Taliban developed after that conflict; we didn't train the Taliban; the arming comes from multiple countries (including the US); and Pakistan's tight controls over the mujaheddin in that conflict - here's the ISI again - mean it's more like we gave money and supplies to the ISI to distribute and they favored certain people (say, Hekmatyar versus Massoud) and built relationships.

...and i'm guessing the latter is code for "i don't want to acknowledge how Pakistan addresses the issue, so i'll just avoid it."

 

[janklow]

look you can try to re-write history if you want but it doesnt change things. Your way of making your point is to try to understate the role of the US in the creation of Israel but history has shown otherwise.

my point actually is more along the lines of "because people have beef with the way the US currently deals with Israel, they feel compelled to attribute EVERYTHING related to Israel to the US." whereas i think we see you're glossing over who's most responsible (say, the UK or the Ottomans) because you want to shoehorn the US in there.

it's fine if you want to talk about current events and then go back some decades, but i didn't think this thread had us talking about current events.

 

[janklow]

nice try although i was born, raised, and currently still live in the U.S. I may not have a master's in history but I will have a master's in international affairs soon.

ok so there have a been a few military coups. so I guess that means you're only a democracy as long as you can circumvent your own laws ( such as secret military tribunals, targeted assassinations, torture, etc). All of that doesnt matter because the U.S. is still a "democracy" even though its actually a republic

hey, you're the one that raised the "Americans don't know shit" issue.

also, look, here's the point: i asked you to name a country that is:

a) predominantly Muslim;

b) a democracy; and

c) gets called "fundamentalists/terrorists."

saying the US does bad deeds or is hypocritical has NOTHING to do with whether or not a country fits those standards. maybe you could address the topic instead of just resorting to "but, but, the US is evil too!" you threw out Pakistan, not me.

 

[husnain1]

You talk about having back channels with terrorists? seriously? you DO realize that the the U.S. also has (and uses some of the same) back channels to talk to the "terrorists."

the difference here is a) you're claiming that it's ignorant to label them a terrorist country (which i actually didn't do), so the fact of them having such connections to terrorists undermines THAT POINT, and b) the US is not nearly as in bed with the groups we're talking about as the Pakistanis are. sorry.

LOL there you again with your silliness. Do you have any evidence to these connections or is it simply stuff you hear on the news? Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are). Leon Panetta (or whoever else) goes on air and states Pakistan is helping the terrorists and you just believe it? I guess you also believe the US can do no harm? Only Pakistan has dubious intentions in the so-called "war on terror?" After all its easy to use drones to drop bombs on people and justify the killing of all the people there by stating that anybody of military age is ok to target (obama uses this justification in the use of drones). If Pakistan is so allied with these terrorists tell me why THEY are the SAME ones attacking Pakistan? Tell me why at least 40,000 Pakistani civilians have been killed since the "war on terror" started? The US has and will continue to use whatever tactics it deems necessary to achieve its goals. In the 70's and 80's the taliban/mujahideen were supported by the US and now those same people are called terrorists because they are fighting the OCCUPATION of their OWN country! If you honestly studied history you would know the Pushtoon will fight to death and history has always shown them to outlast their opponents.

 

[husnain1]

The US also trained and armed the taliban to fight against the Soviets so whats your point? ... As for Kashmir you once again are showing you dont really know much about the issue so i'll leave it at that

please don't give me the "learn something about history" comment and then drop this erroneous talking point. what we call the Taliban developed after that conflict; we didn't train the Taliban; the arming comes from multiple countries (including the US); and Pakistan's tight controls over the mujaheddin in that conflict - here's the ISI again - mean it's more like we gave money and supplies to the ISI to distribute and they favored certain people (say, Hekmatyar versus Massoud) and built relationships.

...and i'm guessing the latter is code for "i don't want to acknowledge how Pakistan addresses the issue, so i'll just avoid it."

again you're showing why I keep telling you that you dont know what you're talking about. The mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same. Its the same people who were sitting around in Afghanistan with nothing to do and ended up forming the Taliban. In contrast look at Jalalludin Haqqani (Haqqani Network) and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Hezb-e-Islami), both of whom were senior mujahiddeen commanders who fought against the Soviets with support from the US/Pak. Now both of these groups are not technically part of the original Taliban but are allied with them because of their opposition to the US. At the same time people like you use a blanket term like Taliban to lump all of these groups together.

As for Kashmir I can fully address the issue but whats the point? you already came to a conclusion since you know best. You clearly show why the Pakistanis dont want to help the US because whenever they do they are called the bad guys and get screwed every which way for it but somehow they continue to help them anyway

 

[husnain1]

look you can try to re-write history if you want but it doesnt change things. Your way of making your point is to try to understate the role of the US in the creation of Israel but history has shown otherwise.

my point actually is more along the lines of "because people have beef with the way the US currently deals with Israel, they feel compelled to attribute EVERYTHING related to Israel to the US." whereas i think we see you're glossing over who's most responsible (say, the UK or the Ottomans) because you want to shoehorn the US in there.

it's fine if you want to talk about current events and then go back some decades, but i didn't think this thread had us talking about current events.

here's the thing you're mixing history and current events. lets just assume for a minute the US didnt have that big of a role in israel's creation. Its not like these people ignored their "beef" with the British or even the Ottoman then. They fought against them too! However currently who is the main supporter of israel? the US so obviously more of the anger will be directed there. History shows the US DID have a key role in the creation of Israel so that only provides fuel to the fire. They have backed off of say Britain (and the Ottoman Empire only because it doesnt exist now) because the british are no longer the major supporter of Israel.

I want you to ask yourself some questions. Why does the US have an undying support for Israel unparalleled to any other nation on the earth? Why is the the US claims to be neutral yet shows CLEAR support for Israel in all matters? The Israeli govt has been occupying the Palestinian territories for decades with the support of the US (and others) and you still wonder why they are hated so much?

 

[janklow]

LOL there you again with your silliness. Do you have any evidence to these connections or is it simply stuff you hear on the news? Unless you're in intelligence I doubt you can fully speak to the veracity of those claims (which is all they are).

let me just cut you off with two things:

a) i don't watch the news;

b) if you tell me i have to be intelligence to know something, you'd better be in intelligence yourself if you claim you know about it. otherwise, we can just discuss the topic like adults?

I guess you also believe the US can do no harm?

completely irrelevant to the question. to repeat, maybe you could address the topic instead of just resorting to "but, but, the US is evil too!"

 

[janklow]

again you're showing why I keep telling you that you dont know what you're talking about. The mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same. Its the same people who were sitting around in Afghanistan with nothing to do and ended up forming the Taliban. In contrast look at Jalalludin Haqqani (Haqqani Network) and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (Hezb-e-Islami), both of whom were senior mujahiddeen commanders who fought against the Soviets with support from the US/Pak.

no, all Taliban might be mujaheddin, but not all mujaheddin are Taliban. frankly, i think you spend much more time deciding no one but yourself knows anything than actually covering the topic.

and yes, let's look at Hekmatyar, since i brought him up for a reason. against the Soviets, the Pakistanis took our money and material, insisted we stay out of Afghanistan, and then funneled the goods to the guys like him that they preferred. go go ISI.

 

[janklow]

At the same time people like you use a blanket term like Taliban to lump all of these groups together.

one, please show me where i lumped all these groups together.

two, YOU just said "mujahiddeen and the taliban are basically one and the same." so who's actually using the blanket term?

As for Kashmir I can fully address the issue but whats the point? you already came to a conclusion since you know best. You clearly show why the Pakistanis dont want to help the US because whenever they do they are called the bad guys and get screwed every which way for it but somehow they continue to help them anyway

and if you're going to play the "why post, since you disagree with me" game, then i have to ask, why are you bothering to post in this thread at all?

 

[janklow]

here's the thing you're mixing history and current events. lets just assume for a minute the US didnt have that big of a role in israel's creation. Its not like these people ignored their "beef" with the British or even the Ottoman then. They fought against them too! However currently who is the main supporter of israel? the US so obviously more of the anger will be directed there.

i'm actually not the one mixing history and current events. you are LITERALLY going right to "who is the main supporter of Israel" one sentence after discussing the creation of Israel. i, however, am NOT talking about the issue of who is currently the main supporter of Israel. i don't know why you think i am OR why talking about it relates to my posts on the creation of Israel.

 

[janklow]

i should also add that this "incredible amount of posts" thing is some ridiculous fluke that i fucking despise. anyway...

I want you to ask yourself some questions. Why does the US have an undying support for Israel unparalleled to any other nation on the earth? Why is the the US claims to be neutral yet shows CLEAR support for Israel in all matters? The Israeli govt has been occupying the Palestinian territories for decades with the support of the US (and others) and you still wonder why they are hated so much?

did i wonder that? or did i ask "why are you asking me these questions when i have not been talking about ANY of that?"

 

[waterproof]

My opinions is this everything that is going on is against THE WORD OF YHWH, so it really doesn't matters.