What Are Your Opinions On the Creation of the State of Israel?

[janklow]

That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

and prior to that, Ottoman rule

janklow: getting America off the hook for random things since ... well, just 2012, i guess

what are you talking about? this is taken from the state department's own website!

NOT AN EXTREMELY GENERIC STATEMENT! NOOOO

okay, okay, what i am talking about: who owned the land to give it away to Jews/Israelis/Zionists/whatever. World War II is just a speed bump on the way to Britain showing back up and saying "we reserve the right to dispose of this territory as we see fit": they took it back in the day from the Ottomans, the League cosigned it, you have an influx of Jews; if anyone should have STOPPED people from creating Israel, it should have been the British. it wasn't a long-standing independent nation AMERICA took over and made into Israel. and did you see us involved in the Suez Crisis?

plus, i have a theory that the US will make statements about how we've always supported our current allies on our websites.

 

[husnain1]

That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

and prior to that, Ottoman rule

janklow: getting America off the hook for random things since ... well, just 2012, i guess

what are you talking about? this is taken from the state department's own website!

NOT AN EXTREMELY GENERIC STATEMENT! NOOOO

okay, okay, what i am talking about: who owned the land to give it away to Jews/Israelis/Zionists/whatever. World War II is just a speed bump on the way to Britain showing back up and saying "we reserve the right to dispose of this territory as we see fit": they took it back in the day from the Ottomans, the League cosigned it, you have an influx of Jews; if anyone should have STOPPED people from creating Israel, it should have been the British. it wasn't a long-standing independent nation AMERICA took over and made into Israel. and did you see us involved in the Suez Crisis?

plus, i have a theory that the US will make statements about how we've always supported our current allies on our websites.

that is precisely the question that no one is willing to honestly ask! the british seized Palestinian lands during the war and gave it to the israelis which is what the whole balfour declaration is about. the Palestinians view it as the british stealing their land and giving it to the jews. was it theirs to give in the first place??

 

[Plutarch]

I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

I agree that oppressive regimes cannot be justified and the "destruction" of legitimate inhabitants, let alone original inhabitants, of a land also cannot be justified. But when we're talking about the decline of original inhabitants of a given land, we just can't simply generalize all these different types of inhabitants together and blame oppressive regimes. Like I've said, many different factors come into play with each of these situations such as as war, evolution, migration, etc. And some of these factors aren't necessarily implemented by an aggresor. Sometimes, it just comes natural. That's part of life. Things change and a dominant or original peoples sometimes decline for "natural" reasons.

I've been paying some attention to the Kosovo situation, and if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants of that particular land are Albanian. Yet the Serbians want to control that land because they were largely the original inhabitants. Still, it can be argued that the Serbians are the oppressive regime and that the Albanians, even though they are not the original inhabitants, actually have a right to own that land simply because the population has developed and changed to favor the Albanians. The Serbians have no real control over that, and it seems to me that they only want to keep the land for its resources. And plus, it'd just look bad (i.e. international reputation) if they just loss the land with no gain.

So if we take a look at the situation in Israel, I couldn't cosign your analogy because I still think that Israel obatined it's "independence" through legal means. Also, I'm still not sure about this whole idea that the Palestinians are the real original inhabitants, let alone the idea that they have a right to that land because they were there first.

Though I might agree that Israel is an oppressive regime, but then again, what nation in this world isn't oppressive? Let's not make Israel a special case here.

 

[Plutarch]

I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got fucked over big time, greed is a mothafucka when it comes to those of European descent.

I don't know too much about the aboriginals in Australia, but I'm willing to bet that yeah they were fucked over big time too. I think that all peoples, let alone Europeans and their diaspora, are greedy, but I must admit that I've never seen any other peoples go across the whole entire world to oppress other peoples in the way Europeans and their diaspora have.

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

But the Jews were also already occupying that land. That's my point. I never knew that fact until only recently which made me do a 180 on my views about the creation of Israel. It mostly seems legit.

Whether or not Israel establishes an apartheid-like policy is a whole 'nother argument. And if it's true, then that's unacceptable and can't be justified.

Yeah, the Liberia situation makes me so depressed. Colonialism did so many bad things to Africa, and the effects are present today even if people don't know it.

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

 

[Plutarch]

That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

See, I thought that too, but it's not true (I explained everything in my original post). So now that I'm more enlightened, I have come to the conlcusion that Israel was legitimately created. But I'm sure that many other people also have misunderstandings about this issue.

Still though, this revelation doesnt change the fact that Isreal is oppressive, and that Israel is America's investment in the Middle East.

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

I think that most of what you said is true, and I agree. Whether Israel was created for the Jews because it was the will of British authority alone (I don't think we can blame America here) or because the Jews had a larger population and thus more influence, the fact that the Palestinians seemed to have been left out completely, even though they shared the land with the Jews, is pretty insane. Israel should've been created for all of its inhabitants, Palestinian and Arab alike. That's my only beef with the creation of Israel.

 

[husnain1]

That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

See, I thought that too, but it's not true (I explained everything in my original post). So now that I'm more enlightened, I have come to the conlcusion that Israel was legitimately created. But I'm sure that many other people also have misunderstandings about this issue.

Still though, this revelation doesnt change the fact that Isreal is oppressive, and that Israel is America's investment in the Middle East.

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

I think that most of what you said is true, and I agree. Whether Israel was created for the Jews because it was the will of British authority alone (I don't think we can blame America here) or because the Jews had a larger population and thus more influence, the fact that the Palestinians seemed to have been left out completely, even though they shared the land with the Jews, is pretty insane. Israel should've been created for all of its inhabitants, Palestinian and Arab alike. That's my only beef with the creation of Israel.

well I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.

 

[LUClEN]

Am i the only that considers bribery to be a potential contributing factor to the British decision to create a purely Jewish state?

 

[Plutarch]

Am i the only that considers bribery to be a potential contributing factor to the British decision to create a purely Jewish state?

I think that that's possible, but all evidence that I've read seems to indicate that the Jews basically "coerced" the British to give them complete control over how Israel was to be created. It's like jono said:

The problem with Israel's genesis was that the Jews basically forced the British out and then took over. They did their fair share of terrorism before the Brits handed it over. Also the Brits opened the door to the Jews moving there in the first place.

 

[Plutarch]

That it does. I thought Palestine was an autonomous sovereign nation at the time. I did not know they were under British rule.

See, I thought that too, but it's not true (I explained everything in my original post). So now that I'm more enlightened, I have come to the conlcusion that Israel was legitimately created. But I'm sure that many other people also have misunderstandings about this issue.

Still though, this revelation doesnt change the fact that Isreal is oppressive, and that Israel is America's investment in the Middle East.

This is largely where my stance comes from: It was my understanding that the land Israel currently occupies, was at least in part, considered Palestine. I had always viewed this as insanity if true, because America and Britain have no right to thieve land from Palestine to form a country for the Jews.

there might have been a war involved, but also, why is America getting blamed for "thieving land from Palestine?"

lol u still posting on here. I would think you would know better. the U.S. foreign policy has been explicitly pro-Israel while maintaining its neutrality on the subject. the U.S. claims to want peace yet says nothing when Israel continues its settlements in disputed territories all the while terrorizing the Palestinians. you and @RodrigueZz need to check out the Balfour Declaration

I think that most of what you said is true, and I agree. Whether Israel was created for the Jews because it was the will of British authority alone (I don't think we can blame America here) or because the Jews had a larger population and thus more influence, the fact that the Palestinians seemed to have been left out completely, even though they shared the land with the Jews, is pretty insane. Israel should've been created for all of its inhabitants, Palestinian and Arab alike. That's my only beef with the creation of Israel.

well I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.

I probably have those same issues with Israel too. Israel is definitely no saint. They have no right to increase their borders, threaten the welfare of their neighboring countries, discriminate against non-Jews, etc.

It is hypocritical and ridiculous when Israelis are generally percieved as freedom fighters while Palestinian are generally percieved as terrorists. Again, here I would mostly blame Western media bias. I'm sure that Western governments have a stake in this false reality as well.

 

[janklow]

that is precisely the question that no one is willing to honestly ask!

uh, no one is willing to ask? i have said it several times: the British. they didn't seize it so much as fight a belligerent nation that owned it at the time and it's a LITTLE more complicated than giving it to the Israelis. but here's the thing: the Ottomans lost it to them, so you might need to ask if it was rightfully THEIR property in the first place.

also, again, not the US on this score

well I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.

let's be fair: what countries claim to be democracies AND Muslim nations that get called fundamentalists/terrorists? we probably have to leave Palestine aside for obvious reasons

It is hypocritical and ridiculous when Israelis are generally percieved as freedom fighters while Palestinian are generally percieved as terrorists. Again, here I would mostly blame Western media bias. I'm sure that Western governments have a stake in this false reality as well.

welcome to the Cold War. although i don't think they're seen as "freedom fighters" so much as "righteously beleaguered democrat heroes." no one really worries about the creation of Israel in the Western world

 

[StillFaggyAF]

I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got fucked over big time, greed is a mothafucka when it comes to those of European descent.

I don't know too much about the aboriginals in Australia, but I'm willing to bet that yeah they were fucked over big time too. I think that all peoples, let alone Europeans and their diaspora, are greedy, but I must admit that I've never seen any other peoples go across the whole entire world to oppress other peoples in the way Europeans and their diaspora have.

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

But the Jews were also already occupying that land. That's my point. I never knew that fact until only recently which made me do a 180 on my views about the creation of Israel. It mostly seems legit.

Whether or not Israel establishes an apartheid-like policy is a whole 'nother argument. And if it's true, then that's unacceptable and can't be justified.

Yeah, the Liberia situation makes me so depressed. Colonialism did so many bad things to Africa, and the effects are present today even if people don't know it.

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

Can you drop some info on that? I would love to read up on that

 

[husnain1]

that is precisely the question that no one is willing to honestly ask!

uh, no one is willing to ask? i have said it several times: the British. they didn't seize it so much as fight a belligerent nation that owned it at the time and it's a LITTLE more complicated than giving it to the Israelis. but here's the thing: the Ottomans lost it to them, so you might need to ask if it was rightfully THEIR property in the first place.

also, again, not the US on this score

well I also have other issues with israel. the fact that they claim to be a democracy all the while they're claiming to be a jewish state. when other countries (muslim) do that they are called fundamentalists and terrorists.

let's be fair: what countries claim to be democracies AND Muslim nations that get called fundamentalists/terrorists? we probably have to leave Palestine aside for obvious reasons

It is hypocritical and ridiculous when Israelis are generally percieved as freedom fighters while Palestinian are generally percieved as terrorists. Again, here I would mostly blame Western media bias. I'm sure that Western governments have a stake in this false reality as well.

welcome to the Cold War. although i don't think they're seen as "freedom fighters" so much as "righteously beleaguered democrat heroes." no one really worries about the creation of Israel in the Western world

i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.

Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.

 

[Plutarch]

I'm sure the original inhabitants of the land feel just like any other people who've been under the thumb of an oppressive regime. Y could ask the Native American or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia the same question. How does it feel to have your culture and way of life destroyed for control of resources?

I feel for the Aboriginals in Australia. Right along with the Palestinians, they got fucked over big time, greed is a mothafucka when it comes to those of European descent.

I don't know too much about the aboriginals in Australia, but I'm willing to bet that yeah they were fucked over big time too. I think that all peoples, let alone Europeans and their diaspora, are greedy, but I must admit that I've never seen any other peoples go across the whole entire world to oppress other peoples in the way Europeans and their diaspora have.

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

But the Jews were also already occupying that land. That's my point. I never knew that fact until only recently which made me do a 180 on my views about the creation of Israel. It mostly seems legit.

Whether or not Israel establishes an apartheid-like policy is a whole 'nother argument. And if it's true, then that's unacceptable and can't be justified.

Yeah, the Liberia situation makes me so depressed. Colonialism did so many bad things to Africa, and the effects are present today even if people don't know it.

That dog sig is hilarious Black lol......and just curious, why do u think Israel shouldn't exist? Not arguing just wana know

My issues is that what gave Jews the right to settle in land that was already populated? And what gives their government the right to establish a modern apartheid? Same thing with Liberia, one of the reasons they have civil wars is because you have the conflict between American "descent" Liberians and native Africans that were pushed off their lands so that some white men in America could feel good about themselves

Can you drop some info on that? I would love to read up on that

I'm sure there are other people here that could give you better sources and information, but I tried, unfortunately with little success, to look for some reliable sources on what you're looking for, and I came up with a couple.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#History_of_Palestine_under_the_British_Mandate - I know it's a wikipedia article, but it still gives you a good 101 on the history of Israel before Israel became Israel. Before Israel became Israel, that same territory was called Palestine, but it wasn't an Arab state. It was technically governed by the British, but was really governed by the Jewish and Arab Palestinians who occupied the land. Though I'm pretty sure that, in the beginning, the Arab Palestinians outnumbered the Jewish Palestinians.

palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14037 - That wikipedia article also gives you links to other sources that you can read up on. This is one of them. The source is biased, but it still gives you a somewhat good timeline of the socio-political development of what is now Israel. The timeline starts from the Stone Age to the present, so it's pretty comprehensive. It was interesting to me because I had always wanted to know what Israel/Palestine was like before the British took control of it from the Ottomans.

 

[janklow]

i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.

my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got fucked that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.

Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.

frankly, this is not a great example, because:

a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;

b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism

 

[husnain1]

i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.

my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got fucked that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.

Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.

frankly, this is not a great example, because:

a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;

b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism

you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US? why was there such a strong impetus to do so? in fact the real reason lies in judeo-christian teachings where many christians believe that the Jews had to return to the "promised land" in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. the fact of the matter is that religion played a dominant role in the creation of Israel. The US/UK, two overwhelmingly christian nations, were inclined to side with the Jews so that biblical prophecy may be fulfilled. now you can see why muslims would have a problem with it. Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?

as far as pakistan well again i dont think you really understand the history of pakistan's relationship with the US. Pakistan has always been on the side of the US while continually getting screwed for their alliance. is it any wonder Pakistan wants to keep a back channel open with the so-called terrorists? I mean after all when the US is gone who will be left to deal with them? besides you speak in terms of black and white. which country invaded the other? I guarantee you if someone came to your house trying to pick a fight you would fight back so why expect anything less of the people there. terms like taliban, extremists, islamists, etc get thrown around way too easily. yeah i agree a lot of those idiots have no business being in any position of authority however not every "brown" person there is a terrorist.

 

[kingblaze84]

i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.

my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got fucked that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.

Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.

frankly, this is not a great example, because:

a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;

b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism

you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US? why was there such a strong impetus to do so? in fact the real reason lies in judeo-christian teachings where many christians believe that the Jews had to return to the "promised land" in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. the fact of the matter is that religion played a dominant role in the creation of Israel. The US/UK, two overwhelmingly christian nations, were inclined to side with the Jews so that biblical prophecy may be fulfilled. now you can see why muslims would have a problem with it. Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?

as far as pakistan well again i dont think you really understand the history of pakistan's relationship with the US. Pakistan has always been on the side of the US while continually getting screwed for their alliance. is it any wonder Pakistan wants to keep a back channel open with the so-called terrorists? I mean after all when the US is gone who will be left to deal with them? besides you speak in terms of black and white. which country invaded the other? I guarantee you if someone came to your house trying to pick a fight you would fight back so why expect anything less of the people there. terms like taliban, extremists, islamists, etc get thrown around way too easily. yeah i agree a lot of those idiots have no business being in any position of authority however not every "brown" person there is a terrorist.

Great post bro, the birth of Israel led to close to a million Palestinians being forced from their homes, farms, and businesses, all with British support.....if Pakistan supports "terrorism", than America fully supports terrorism as well by giving weapons and aid to the terrorist and genocidal state known as Israel. How much more land and water must Israel steal and how many more illegal settlements have to be built before Americans understand why Pakistan and many other nations in the middle east hate America so much? And shame on Obama and Romney for being so willing to sell their soul to the devil in order to gain Jewish votes and more importantly, mega dollars to fund their campaigns. I'm no fan of Al-Qaeda or terrorist tactics, but when America is so blatant in its disregard for Palestinians and the theft of their land and the destruction of their homes everyday to make way for Jewish settlements, I can very easily see why someone would resort to desperate tactics to show America, Israel, and the west that stealing and destruction can be tolerated for only so much.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Fuck Israel. I say that not because I have any belief that they have no rights to the land or that I believe they are all wrong. They may have credible and truthful claims. I say fuck them because they are the biggest hypocrites ever to exist. It's amazing how they can constantly complain about how they've been mistreated historically, but simultaneously do a lot of the stuff the complain about to other people without batting an eye.

I also dislike how they seem to have a chokehold on the US. When we're discussing electing a new president, his stance on foreign policy should be a major concern. His stance on relations with Israel shouldn't. With all the countries out there that we have dealings with both good and bad, why should Israel be so important to the general public?

 

[kingblaze84]

Fuck Israel. I say that not because I have any belief that they have no rights to the land or that I believe they are all wrong. They may have credible and truthful claims. I say fuck them because they are the biggest hypocrites ever to exist. It's amazing how they can constantly complain about how they've been mistreated historically, but simultaneously do a lot of the stuff the complain about to other people without batting an eye.

I also dislike how they seem to have a chokehold on the US. When we're discussing electing a new president, his stance on foreign policy should be a major concern. His stance on relations with Israel shouldn't. With all the countries out there that we have dealings with both good and bad, why should Israel be so important to the general public?

It's all about the money trail man. Israel does very little to help America out image wise, it's all about Jewish votes and more importantly, their large financial donor base. Until Muslims and Arabs contribute the same amount of dollars to American campaigns and interests the way Jews do, Israel will continue its choke hold on American politics, and also continue to be the main reason America is so hated across the Muslim and Arab world. Israel also is very good at convincing the evangelical Christians of America that Israel is indeed the chosen nation of the world and that it needs America's support to continue God's plan for the world, whatever plan that is. Basically, Israel has American politicians by the balls and the whole world knows it. America has been sold out a long time ago.

 

[husnain1]

i didnt mean you didnt ask the question. i meant by and large that question gets ignored. it had RIGHTFULLY been their property for hundreds of years, I really dont see your point there.

my point, i suppose, is two points: a) what's the determination we're using for "rightfully," because we HAVE to go back before the British controlled it to answer that, and b) there's the quick "blame UK or the US somehow" explanation for how the Palestinians got fucked that easily overlooks the fact that the Ottomans brought the territory into a war that they then lost.

Pakistan is a muslim nation AND a democracy. it has lost more people through its support on the war on terror than all the other countries combined. yet it gets labelled as a terrorist country by ignorant people.

frankly, this is not a great example, because:

a) Pakistan's credentials as a democracy have been known to look incredibly questionable;

b) the ISI's games with ACTUAL terrorists are long-established and documented, so while "Pakistan is a terrorist country" is probably not a fair statement, there's a couple of legitimate reasons to associate Pakistan with the promotion of terrorism

you continue to miss the point. who divided up the territory to favor a nation for the Jews? was it not the UK/US? why was there such a strong impetus to do so? in fact the real reason lies in judeo-christian teachings where many christians believe that the Jews had to return to the "promised land" in order to fulfill biblical prophecy. the fact of the matter is that religion played a dominant role in the creation of Israel. The US/UK, two overwhelmingly christian nations, were inclined to side with the Jews so that biblical prophecy may be fulfilled. now you can see why muslims would have a problem with it. Just take a look at current events. You got Mitt Romney going to israel and saying that the US has a duty to protect and take care of israel. come on man u honestly think there is no bias? why the hell does the US have to be so concerned for israel?

as far as pakistan well again i dont think you really understand the history of pakistan's relationship with the US. Pakistan has always been on the side of the US while continually getting screwed for their alliance. is it any wonder Pakistan wants to keep a back channel open with the so-called terrorists? I mean after all when the US is gone who will be left to deal with them? besides you speak in terms of black and white. which country invaded the other? I guarantee you if someone came to your house trying to pick a fight you would fight back so why expect anything less of the people there. terms like taliban, extremists, islamists, etc get thrown around way too easily. yeah i agree a lot of those idiots have no business being in any position of authority however not every "brown" person there is a terrorist.

Great post bro, the birth of Israel led to close to a million Palestinians being forced from their homes, farms, and businesses, all with British support.....if Pakistan supports "terrorism", than America fully supports terrorism as well by giving weapons and aid to the terrorist and genocidal state known as Israel. How much more land and water must Israel steal and how many more illegal settlements have to be built before Americans understand why Pakistan and many other nations in the middle east hate America so much? And shame on Obama and Romney for being so willing to sell their soul to the devil in order to gain Jewish votes and more importantly, mega dollars to fund their campaigns. I'm no fan of Al-Qaeda or terrorist tactics, but when America is so blatant in its disregard for Palestinians and the theft of their land and the destruction of their homes everyday to make way for Jewish settlements, I can very easily see why someone would resort to desperate tactics to show America, Israel, and the west that stealing and destruction can be tolerated for only so much.

thank you. although i'd like to make a clear distinction. i think the hate is directed more towards the policies of governments rather than its peoples.

 

[JJ 1975]

I need to look into it more. I always thought Israel was created after world war 2 as a place to put the jews. I've never viewed Israel as having a right to exist. And even if Israel does have legitimate reasons for existing, they're not innocent victims.