To those who believe in a kind and merciful god....why is the world so hostile to life?

[alissowack]

@alissowack

You're just assuming I wouldn't listen to Jesus if he came back. But if he came back, made a little speech and worked enough miracles, who wouldn't be impressed?

Why would a god have a hard time convincing others of the truth? I suppose he's unable to prove himself, and that's fine. He has that right.

I'm not saying you wouldn't listen. I'm saying you won't accept what he has to say about you...which in turn you will not give your life to him.

I'm not here to try to get e-converts. My issue is...for someone who is "open" to the existence of God, you are being pretty narrow as to how God presents Himself. If God exists, then He must exist according to how "you" want Him to be...and not outside of anything that challenges your comfort zone. The fact that we Christians say that God has revealed Himself in a book bothers you. You think that God has to do something spectacular for people to follow Him when He doesn't. Jesus's storyline ought to hint to that. He wasn't born in a palace. He wasn't sitting on an earthly throne with a multitude of people bowing down at his feet. Apart from his miracles, he was ordinary. He was one of us. He was approachable; vulnerable to the foolishness of the world.

You say I am "being narrow" with how your god presents himself or should present himself. But it's not fair that Jesus performed miracles for some of his best buddies but the rest of us just gotta take his word for it.

Wasn't Thomas or one of the other apostles a doubter too? Peter as well? Jesus chose to do a magic trick or two and convinced them that he was the real deal. So it's not fair that Jesus proves some doubters wrong but other doubters just have to accept what they haven't seen for thousands of years. If David Blaine lived 2,000 years ago, maybe he also could have convinced people he was a god. After all, you are being narrow in your belief of a god too, you reject thousands of other gods right now.

Is Jesus merely defined by the miracles? Does he have anything to say about your (and my) sins? Thomas and Peter didn't come to faith because of the miracles. Their attitude was not..."Bravo!!! I'm impressed...I guess I'll follow you now". They came to faith realizing their sin and turning to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Bodhi]

It's really no logical way to reconcile a purely benevolent God with a malevolent world.

It's closely related to the inconsistency of asserting that a perfect being can create imperfection.

Had God (assuming he exists for arguments sake) created a perfect world without evil,

it would not infringe upon our free will. Surely, it would limit our choices, though our choices are

already limited by our very nature at present.

 

[zzombie]

Creating a perfect world without evil and then putting freewill creatures on it is logical impossible.

If you limit my choice then I am not truly free as it is now only the laws of physics limit what man can or cannot do.

 

[kingblaze84]

@alissowack

You're just assuming I wouldn't listen to Jesus if he came back. But if he came back, made a little speech and worked enough miracles, who wouldn't be impressed?

Why would a god have a hard time convincing others of the truth? I suppose he's unable to prove himself, and that's fine. He has that right.

I'm not saying you wouldn't listen. I'm saying you won't accept what he has to say about you...which in turn you will not give your life to him.

I'm not here to try to get e-converts. My issue is...for someone who is "open" to the existence of God, you are being pretty narrow as to how God presents Himself. If God exists, then He must exist according to how "you" want Him to be...and not outside of anything that challenges your comfort zone. The fact that we Christians say that God has revealed Himself in a book bothers you. You think that God has to do something spectacular for people to follow Him when He doesn't. Jesus's storyline ought to hint to that. He wasn't born in a palace. He wasn't sitting on an earthly throne with a multitude of people bowing down at his feet. Apart from his miracles, he was ordinary. He was one of us. He was approachable; vulnerable to the foolishness of the world.

You say I am "being narrow" with how your god presents himself or should present himself. But it's not fair that Jesus performed miracles for some of his best buddies but the rest of us just gotta take his word for it.

Wasn't Thomas or one of the other apostles a doubter too? Peter as well? Jesus chose to do a magic trick or two and convinced them that he was the real deal. So it's not fair that Jesus proves some doubters wrong but other doubters just have to accept what they haven't seen for thousands of years. If David Blaine lived 2,000 years ago, maybe he also could have convinced people he was a god. After all, you are being narrow in your belief of a god too, you reject thousands of other gods right now.

Is Jesus merely defined by the miracles? Does he have anything to say about your (and my) sins? Thomas and Peter didn't come to faith because of the miracles. Their attitude was not..."Bravo!!! I'm impressed...I guess I'll follow you now". They came to faith realizing their sin and turning to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Either way, Jesus worked the miracles in front of them and I'm sure the miracles were a huge reason for them converting. If doubting Thomas and Peter never saw the "miracles", and lived 2,000 years later in our time, they would have almost no reason to convert.

 

[kingblaze84]

It's really no logical way to reconcile a purely benevolent God with a malevolent world.

It's closely related to the inconsistency of asserting that a perfect being can create imperfection.

Had God (assuming he exists for arguments sake) created a perfect world without evil,

it would not infringe upon our free will. Surely, it would limit our choices, though our choices are

already limited by our very nature at present.

Exactly, free will should really be called limited will. Our "free will" is limited by so many factors that calling it free will is almost a joke. I do believe many have some semblance of free will but just as many, if not more, don't really have free will at all.

Our choices are limited by so many natural factors, environment, intelligence, childhood, even genetics (some have weak immune systems or are weak in general). A healthy genius with a millionaire father has way better choices in life then an orphan in Brazil who suffers from malaria or some other horrible tropical disease. Free will, in this world at least, is not really free at all. Add to that natural disasters and calamities like viruses and cruel bacteria, and many people, especially children, have no serious choice in their life at all.

 

[alissowack]

@alissowack

You're just assuming I wouldn't listen to Jesus if he came back. But if he came back, made a little speech and worked enough miracles, who wouldn't be impressed?

Why would a god have a hard time convincing others of the truth? I suppose he's unable to prove himself, and that's fine. He has that right.

I'm not saying you wouldn't listen. I'm saying you won't accept what he has to say about you...which in turn you will not give your life to him.

I'm not here to try to get e-converts. My issue is...for someone who is "open" to the existence of God, you are being pretty narrow as to how God presents Himself. If God exists, then He must exist according to how "you" want Him to be...and not outside of anything that challenges your comfort zone. The fact that we Christians say that God has revealed Himself in a book bothers you. You think that God has to do something spectacular for people to follow Him when He doesn't. Jesus's storyline ought to hint to that. He wasn't born in a palace. He wasn't sitting on an earthly throne with a multitude of people bowing down at his feet. Apart from his miracles, he was ordinary. He was one of us. He was approachable; vulnerable to the foolishness of the world.

You say I am "being narrow" with how your god presents himself or should present himself. But it's not fair that Jesus performed miracles for some of his best buddies but the rest of us just gotta take his word for it.

Wasn't Thomas or one of the other apostles a doubter too? Peter as well? Jesus chose to do a magic trick or two and convinced them that he was the real deal. So it's not fair that Jesus proves some doubters wrong but other doubters just have to accept what they haven't seen for thousands of years. If David Blaine lived 2,000 years ago, maybe he also could have convinced people he was a god. After all, you are being narrow in your belief of a god too, you reject thousands of other gods right now.

Is Jesus merely defined by the miracles? Does he have anything to say about your (and my) sins? Thomas and Peter didn't come to faith because of the miracles. Their attitude was not..."Bravo!!! I'm impressed...I guess I'll follow you now". They came to faith realizing their sin and turning to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Either way, Jesus worked the miracles in front of them and I'm sure the miracles were a huge reason for them converting. If doubting Thomas and Peter never saw the "miracles", and lived 2,000 years later in our time, they would have almost no reason to convert.

There were people in the Bible who didn't need a miracle to believe in Jesus so what about them? One "small" example is the Samaritan woman. She wasn't like "show me trick and I will follow you". Jesus didn't "magically" cause the stones to fall out of her accusers's hands. He exposed their sin and they turned away. Jesus exposed her sins and she came to faith.

...and what about Judas? According to your understanding, he should have been convinced as well. He was a disciple so he had a front row seat to it all. But he still ended up betraying Jesus and in the end, realizing he was in sin, killed himself. And I guess Jesus's Cruxificion could have been prevented if he just did a few more magic tricks in front of the Jews. The Jews had him crucified because they believe he was a blasphemer...not because they were not impressed with the show.

Miracles were a part of what Jesus did in his ministry, but he is not ultimately defined my his miracles which I hope you will see. He came to show how we are all sinners in need of a savior. If you don't embrace that, a thousand "miracles" are not going to change your mind.

 

[rodneyskinner]

For the ARGUMENT that MAN has sinned and thus he's beholden to some debt of God. Couple of things wrong with this theory.

1 God manipulated mankind after their supposed sin. Therefore how can he blame them for being sinners. 2 Examples stand out. 1 Kicking Eve and Adam out of the garden. 2 Confusing the languages in the Tower of Babel. Specifically stating is there nothing man will be able to do if they spoke one language.

2 God mentions no such sin when establishing his covenant with Israel. He never said since Adam sinned then you must always be servants. He said I brought you out of the land of EGYPT and for that you are indebted to me. I have made a covenant relationship with you. One in which the Jews did not break after building the second temple. No he stated that you are my chosen people that I have chosen as a nation. As a nation I'm going to send you my Messaiah.

3. Jesus was not the WORLDS messiah. Understand what that word means. Then you will understand how he didn't fulfill the covenant between Israel and God. Therefore saying that he will make things right upon his return is Hogwash. Go look at the original promise given to the Jews in Isaiah.

4. God never fulfills a promise not the other way around. What makes you think he will fulfill one now? Its like making a deal with a lawyer who isn't even clever at deceiving you. Where is the land of Milk and Honey originally promised to the Jews in BONDAGE. Look at the promise he made in Isaiah

For you will spread out to the right and to the left;

your descendants will dispossess nations

and settle in their desolate cities.

4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.

Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.

You will forget the shame of your youth

and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.

That never happened.

Now we are to believe in a Messiah's return that is almost 2000 years delayed.

(FOR YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO GRAB ISAIAH TEXT AND THEN SAY JESUS WAS PREDICTED IN ISAIAH LET ME POINT OUT THAT THE BOOK IS TALKING ABOUT CYRUS. Specifically it states.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

WHERE ARE JESUS'S OFFSPRING?)

 

[zzombie]

For the ARGUMENT that MAN has sinned and thus he's beholden to some debt of God. Couple of things wrong with this theory.

1 God manipulated mankind after their supposed sin. Therefore how can he blame them for being sinners. 2 Examples stand out. 1 Kicking Eve and Adam out of the garden. 2 Confusing the languages in the Tower of Babel. Specifically stating is there nothing man will be able to do if they spoke one language.

2 God mentions no such sin when establishing his covenant with Israel. He never said since Adam sinned then you must always be servants. He said I brought you out of the land of EGYPT and for that you are indebted to me. I have made a covenant relationship with you. One in which the Jews did not break after building the second temple. No he stated that you are my chosen people that I have chosen as a nation. As a nation I'm going to send you my Messaiah.

3. Jesus was not the WORLDS messiah. Understand what that word means. Then you will understand how he didn't fulfill the covenant between Israel and God. Therefore saying that he will make things right upon his return is Hogwash. Go look at the original promise given to the Jews in Isaiah.

4. God never fulfills a promise not the other way around. What makes you think he will fulfill one now? Its like making a deal with a lawyer who isn't even clever at deceiving you. Where is the land of Milk and Honey originally promised to the Jews in BONDAGE. Look at the promise he made in Isaiah

For you will spread out to the right and to the left;

your descendants will dispossess nations

and settle in their desolate cities.

4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.

Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.

You will forget the shame of your youth

and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.

That never happened.

Now we are to believe in a Messiah's return that is almost 2000 years delayed.

(FOR YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO GRAB ISAIAH TEXT AND THEN SAY JESUS WAS PREDICTED IN ISAIAH LET ME POINT OUT THAT THE BOOK IS TALKING ABOUT CYRUS. Specifically it states.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

WHERE ARE JESUS'S OFFSPRING?)

1. God is not blaming all of mankind for being sinners but he does acknowledge that that's the state mankind is in now when it comes is israel things get more complex because of the covenants he made with them.

2. The jews did break the law after the second temple read Malachi it's right there at the very start of the book

3. Israel misunderstood the covenant, Make things right??? god is not really coming back to make things right he's coming back to end things.

4. funny enough is seems that the jews are in a way doing that right now to the palestinians kicking them our of their own towns but anyway isaiah 53 is not about cyrus, does this sound like any mortal king to you

isa 53:3

He was despised and rejected by mankind,

a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Like one from whom people hide their faces

he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

jesus offspring are this spiritual children the millions of christians all across the planet

 

[Bodhi]

Creating a perfect world without evil and then putting freewill creatures on it is logical impossible.

If you limit my choice then I am not truly free as it is now only the laws of physics limit what man can or cannot do.

God could have made it impossible to commit evil

just as it is impossible for man to breathe underwater.

If God authored the laws of physics,

he's limiting you in some way because you aren't exactly

free to do everything.

I believe kingblaze worded it better than I did:

Our choices are limited by so many natural factors, environment, intelligence, childhood, even genetics (some have weak immune systems or are weak in general). A healthy genius with a millionaire father has way better choices in life then an orphan in Brazil who suffers from malaria or some other horrible tropical disease. Free will, in this world at least, is not really free at all.

 

[Bodhi]

double

 

[kingblaze84]

@alissowack

You're just assuming I wouldn't listen to Jesus if he came back. But if he came back, made a little speech and worked enough miracles, who wouldn't be impressed?

Why would a god have a hard time convincing others of the truth? I suppose he's unable to prove himself, and that's fine. He has that right.

I'm not saying you wouldn't listen. I'm saying you won't accept what he has to say about you...which in turn you will not give your life to him.

I'm not here to try to get e-converts. My issue is...for someone who is "open" to the existence of God, you are being pretty narrow as to how God presents Himself. If God exists, then He must exist according to how "you" want Him to be...and not outside of anything that challenges your comfort zone. The fact that we Christians say that God has revealed Himself in a book bothers you. You think that God has to do something spectacular for people to follow Him when He doesn't. Jesus's storyline ought to hint to that. He wasn't born in a palace. He wasn't sitting on an earthly throne with a multitude of people bowing down at his feet. Apart from his miracles, he was ordinary. He was one of us. He was approachable; vulnerable to the foolishness of the world.

You say I am "being narrow" with how your god presents himself or should present himself. But it's not fair that Jesus performed miracles for some of his best buddies but the rest of us just gotta take his word for it.

Wasn't Thomas or one of the other apostles a doubter too? Peter as well? Jesus chose to do a magic trick or two and convinced them that he was the real deal. So it's not fair that Jesus proves some doubters wrong but other doubters just have to accept what they haven't seen for thousands of years. If David Blaine lived 2,000 years ago, maybe he also could have convinced people he was a god. After all, you are being narrow in your belief of a god too, you reject thousands of other gods right now.

Is Jesus merely defined by the miracles? Does he have anything to say about your (and my) sins? Thomas and Peter didn't come to faith because of the miracles. Their attitude was not..."Bravo!!! I'm impressed...I guess I'll follow you now". They came to faith realizing their sin and turning to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Either way, Jesus worked the miracles in front of them and I'm sure the miracles were a huge reason for them converting. If doubting Thomas and Peter never saw the "miracles", and lived 2,000 years later in our time, they would have almost no reason to convert.

There were people in the Bible who didn't need a miracle to believe in Jesus so what about them? One "small" example is the Samaritan woman. She wasn't like "show me trick and I will follow you". Jesus didn't "magically" cause the stones to fall out of her accusers's hands. He exposed their sin and they turned away. Jesus exposed her sins and she came to faith.

...and what about Judas? According to your understanding, he should have been convinced as well. He was a disciple so he had a front row seat to it all. But he still ended up betraying Jesus and in the end, realizing he was in sin, killed himself. And I guess Jesus's Cruxificion could have been prevented if he just did a few more magic tricks in front of the Jews. The Jews had him crucified because they believe he was a blasphemer...not because they were not impressed with the show.

Miracles were a part of what Jesus did in his ministry, but he is not ultimately defined my his miracles which I hope you will see. He came to show how we are all sinners in need of a savior. If you don't embrace that, a thousand "miracles" are not going to change your mind.

Ok you have some fair points there, Jesus didn't need miracles to convince all of his followers back then. But there's a difference between being a decent guy and proving one is a god and heaven only achievable by being Christian and following the Bible's rules (that's a whole other thread, but I'm tempted to bring up some of the odd and strange rules there).

And let's say Jesus is a "savior", who is gonna save the paralyzed children suffering from the Zika virus? As if being a parent isn't tough enough, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions someday, have to deal with nature made viruses that paralyze a child and shrink their heads in the cruelest of ways? Who is gonna save the homeless people in NY and elsewhere from freezing in this cold and snow storm that is setting records? Humans are gonna keep "sinning", so what's Jesus waiting for? Too many contradictions in your narrative.

 

[zzombie]

Creating a perfect world without evil and then putting freewill creatures on it is logical impossible.

If you limit my choice then I am not truly free as it is now only the laws of physics limit what man can or cannot do.

God could have made it impossible to commit evil

just as it is impossible for man to breathe underwater.

If God authored the laws of physics,

he's limiting you in some way because you aren't exactly

free to do everything.

I believe kingblaze worded it better than I did:

Our choices are limited by so many natural factors, environment, intelligence, childhood, even genetics (some have weak immune systems or are weak in general). A healthy genius with a millionaire father has way better choices in life then an orphan in Brazil who suffers from malaria or some other horrible tropical disease. Free will, in this world at least, is not really free at all.

No because he wanted to create freewill having creatures THEREFORE he had to allow us the ability to do evil.

We can do everything possible not anything we can think of the reason why is very logical if you think about it because once something is created it cannot do anything meaning it cannot do anything it thinks of.

for example people cannot time travel or fly under their own power or negate the laws of cause and effect and when you say you can do anything it has to include the impossible

 

[kingblaze84]

For the ARGUMENT that MAN has sinned and thus he's beholden to some debt of God. Couple of things wrong with this theory.

1 God manipulated mankind after their supposed sin. Therefore how can he blame them for being sinners. 2 Examples stand out. 1 Kicking Eve and Adam out of the garden. 2 Confusing the languages in the Tower of Babel. Specifically stating is there nothing man will be able to do if they spoke one language.

2 God mentions no such sin when establishing his covenant with Israel. He never said since Adam sinned then you must always be servants. He said I brought you out of the land of EGYPT and for that you are indebted to me. I have made a covenant relationship with you. One in which the Jews did not break after building the second temple. No he stated that you are my chosen people that I have chosen as a nation. As a nation I'm going to send you my Messaiah.

3. Jesus was not the WORLDS messiah. Understand what that word means. Then you will understand how he didn't fulfill the covenant between Israel and God. Therefore saying that he will make things right upon his return is Hogwash. Go look at the original promise given to the Jews in Isaiah.

4. God never fulfills a promise not the other way around. What makes you think he will fulfill one now? Its like making a deal with a lawyer who isn't even clever at deceiving you. Where is the land of Milk and Honey originally promised to the Jews in BONDAGE. Look at the promise he made in Isaiah

For you will spread out to the right and to the left;

your descendants will dispossess nations

and settle in their desolate cities.

4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.

Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.

You will forget the shame of your youth

and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.

That never happened.

Now we are to believe in a Messiah's return that is almost 2000 years delayed.

(FOR YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO GRAB ISAIAH TEXT AND THEN SAY JESUS WAS PREDICTED IN ISAIAH LET ME POINT OUT THAT THE BOOK IS TALKING ABOUT CYRUS. Specifically it states.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

WHERE ARE JESUS'S OFFSPRING?)

1. God is not blaming all of mankind for being sinners but he does acknowledge that that's the state mankind is in now when it comes is israel things get more complex because of the covenants he made with them.

2. The jews did break the law after the second temple read Malachi it's right there at the very start of the book

3. Israel misunderstood the covenant, Make things right??? god is not really coming back to make things right he's coming back to end things.

4. funny enough is seems that the jews are in a way doing that right now to the palestinians kicking them our of their own towns but anyway isaiah 53 is not about cyrus, does this sound like any mortal king to you

isa 53:3

He was despised and rejected by mankind,

a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Like one from whom people hide their faces

he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

jesus offspring are this spiritual children the millions of christians all across the planet

Big difference between OFFSPRING and followers. And the prophecies said the real savior would be UNDEFEATED in battle and kill ALL his enemies as a general and eventually king. Jesus got his ass kicked and died as a carpenter. I can name other gods with more impressive track records then that.

 

[zzombie]

You know what @kingblaze84 when it comes to religion I'm dusting my sandals off and shaking my clothes off about you. You don't want to learn or understand the Christian perspective on anything all you really want to do is disrespect god and Christianity.

It's been a waste of time speaking to you about religion and this will be my last post to you about the subject

 

[kingblaze84]

Okay, so I guess the Old Testament prophets didn't know what the hell they were talking about......

By that same connection, it must mean the Bible god is phony and doesn't exist. After all, the Old Testament prophets were WRONG and inaccurate about what the real savior was supposed to do in its lifetime. So imagine what else they were wrong about.

 

[Bodhi]

No because he wanted to create freewill having creatures THEREFORE he had to allow us the ability to do evil.

But evil doesn't have to exist

in order for us to have free will.

We would have the freedom to choose between

any number of "good" actions; Choosing to do evil

would be like choosing to ride a unicorn instead of a horse.

You only have the option to ride a horse

because unicorns don't exist. So now you still have the free will,

but only the free will to choose which horse to ride.

We can do everything possible, not anything we can think of the reason why is very logical if you think about it because once something is created it cannot do anything meaning it cannot do anything it thinks of.

for example people cannot time travel or fly under their own power or negate the laws of cause and effect and when you say you can do anything it has to include the impossible

Right --- but some things are impossible

because of how God set the world up (according to you).

If God created a world in which some things are impossible

for you to do, does that not infringe free will?

I want to fly "under my own power" yet I can't

because God didn't put wings on human beings.

I don't have free will then.

 

[zzombie]

No because he wanted to create freewill having creatures THEREFORE he had to allow us the ability to do evil.

But evil doesn't have to exist

in order for us to have free will.

We would have the freedom to choose between

any number of "good" actions; Choosing to do evil

would be like choosing to ride a unicorn instead of a horse.

You only have the option to ride a horse

because unicorns don't exist. So now you still have the free will,

but only the free will to choose which horse to ride.

We can do everything possible, not anything we can think of the reason why is very logical if you think about it because once something is created it cannot do anything meaning it cannot do anything it thinks of.

for example people cannot time travel or fly under their own power or negate the laws of cause and effect and when you say you can do anything it has to include the impossible

Right --- but some things are impossible

because of how God set the world up (according to you).

If God created a world in which some things are impossible

for you to do, does that not infringe free will?

I want to fly "under my own power" yet I can't

because God didn't put wings on human beings.

I don't have free will then.

evil does not have to exist because we can choose not to do evil but the possibility of evil does have to exist if we are freewill creatures. CLEARLY MAN continues to choose evil. WE DON'T HAVE only the option to ride the horse we have the horse and unicorn and they both exist. what you propose would be the creation of a creature that does not have freewill.

God cannot do anything that is logically impossible in other words he cannot create a round rectangle and he cannot create a freewill humanity that cannot chose to do evil.

for the bold. There is no correlation with people not being able to break the laws of physics and lack of freewill what you are talking about is lack of ability not lack of freewill. humanity was made with lack of ability but not lack of freewill.

You have the freewill to want to chose to fly under your own power that does not mean you will have the ability.

 

[alissowack]

@alissowack

You're just assuming I wouldn't listen to Jesus if he came back. But if he came back, made a little speech and worked enough miracles, who wouldn't be impressed?

Why would a god have a hard time convincing others of the truth? I suppose he's unable to prove himself, and that's fine. He has that right.

I'm not saying you wouldn't listen. I'm saying you won't accept what he has to say about you...which in turn you will not give your life to him.

I'm not here to try to get e-converts. My issue is...for someone who is "open" to the existence of God, you are being pretty narrow as to how God presents Himself. If God exists, then He must exist according to how "you" want Him to be...and not outside of anything that challenges your comfort zone. The fact that we Christians say that God has revealed Himself in a book bothers you. You think that God has to do something spectacular for people to follow Him when He doesn't. Jesus's storyline ought to hint to that. He wasn't born in a palace. He wasn't sitting on an earthly throne with a multitude of people bowing down at his feet. Apart from his miracles, he was ordinary. He was one of us. He was approachable; vulnerable to the foolishness of the world.

You say I am "being narrow" with how your god presents himself or should present himself. But it's not fair that Jesus performed miracles for some of his best buddies but the rest of us just gotta take his word for it.

Wasn't Thomas or one of the other apostles a doubter too? Peter as well? Jesus chose to do a magic trick or two and convinced them that he was the real deal. So it's not fair that Jesus proves some doubters wrong but other doubters just have to accept what they haven't seen for thousands of years. If David Blaine lived 2,000 years ago, maybe he also could have convinced people he was a god. After all, you are being narrow in your belief of a god too, you reject thousands of other gods right now.

Is Jesus merely defined by the miracles? Does he have anything to say about your (and my) sins? Thomas and Peter didn't come to faith because of the miracles. Their attitude was not..."Bravo!!! I'm impressed...I guess I'll follow you now". They came to faith realizing their sin and turning to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Either way, Jesus worked the miracles in front of them and I'm sure the miracles were a huge reason for them converting. If doubting Thomas and Peter never saw the "miracles", and lived 2,000 years later in our time, they would have almost no reason to convert.

There were people in the Bible who didn't need a miracle to believe in Jesus so what about them? One "small" example is the Samaritan woman. She wasn't like "show me trick and I will follow you". Jesus didn't "magically" cause the stones to fall out of her accusers's hands. He exposed their sin and they turned away. Jesus exposed her sins and she came to faith.

...and what about Judas? According to your understanding, he should have been convinced as well. He was a disciple so he had a front row seat to it all. But he still ended up betraying Jesus and in the end, realizing he was in sin, killed himself. And I guess Jesus's Cruxificion could have been prevented if he just did a few more magic tricks in front of the Jews. The Jews had him crucified because they believe he was a blasphemer...not because they were not impressed with the show.

Miracles were a part of what Jesus did in his ministry, but he is not ultimately defined my his miracles which I hope you will see. He came to show how we are all sinners in need of a savior. If you don't embrace that, a thousand "miracles" are not going to change your mind.

Ok you have some fair points there, Jesus didn't need miracles to convince all of his followers back then. But there's a difference between being a decent guy and proving one is a god and heaven only achievable by being Christian and following the Bible's rules (that's a whole other thread, but I'm tempted to bring up some of the odd and strange rules there).

And let's say Jesus is a "savior", who is gonna save the paralyzed children suffering from the Zika virus? As if being a parent isn't tough enough, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions someday, have to deal with nature made viruses that paralyze a child and shrink their heads in the cruelest of ways? Who is gonna save the homeless people in NY and elsewhere from freezing in this cold and snow storm that is setting records? Humans are gonna keep "sinning", so what's Jesus waiting for? Too many contradictions in your narrative.

But like I've said in previous posts...the issue of sin is spiritual. If physically curing someone of disease makes them spiritually well, then I would be in your corner as to whether Jesus's Sacrifice has done anything. But freeing someone of disease or bad circumstances is not going to change them spiritually. It's like giving an addict a billion dollars. It's not going to matter it you take an addict out of a bad environment; give him or her a life of luxury if there is not going to be a spiritual change...otherwise it is only going to fuel their addiction.

 

[rodneyskinner]

For the ARGUMENT that MAN has sinned and thus he's beholden to some debt of God. Couple of things wrong with this theory.

1 God manipulated mankind after their supposed sin. Therefore how can he blame them for being sinners. 2 Examples stand out. 1 Kicking Eve and Adam out of the garden. 2 Confusing the languages in the Tower of Babel. Specifically stating is there nothing man will be able to do if they spoke one language.

2 God mentions no such sin when establishing his covenant with Israel. He never said since Adam sinned then you must always be servants. He said I brought you out of the land of EGYPT and for that you are indebted to me. I have made a covenant relationship with you. One in which the Jews did not break after building the second temple. No he stated that you are my chosen people that I have chosen as a nation. As a nation I'm going to send you my Messaiah.

3. Jesus was not the WORLDS messiah. Understand what that word means. Then you will understand how he didn't fulfill the covenant between Israel and God. Therefore saying that he will make things right upon his return is Hogwash. Go look at the original promise given to the Jews in Isaiah.

4. God never fulfills a promise not the other way around. What makes you think he will fulfill one now? Its like making a deal with a lawyer who isn't even clever at deceiving you. Where is the land of Milk and Honey originally promised to the Jews in BONDAGE. Look at the promise he made in Isaiah

For you will spread out to the right and to the left;

your descendants will dispossess nations

and settle in their desolate cities.

4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.

Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.

You will forget the shame of your youth

and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.

That never happened.

Now we are to believe in a Messiah's return that is almost 2000 years delayed.

(FOR YOU PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO GRAB ISAIAH TEXT AND THEN SAY JESUS WAS PREDICTED IN ISAIAH LET ME POINT OUT THAT THE BOOK IS TALKING ABOUT CYRUS. Specifically it states.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

WHERE ARE JESUS'S OFFSPRING?)

1. God is not blaming all of mankind for being sinners but he does acknowledge that that's the state mankind is in now when it comes is israel things get more complex because of the covenants he made with them.

2. The jews did break the law after the second temple read Malachi it's right there at the very start of the book

3. Israel misunderstood the covenant, Make things right??? god is not really coming back to make things right he's coming back to end things.

4. funny enough is seems that the jews are in a way doing that right now to the palestinians kicking them our of their own towns but anyway isaiah 53 is not about cyrus, does this sound like any mortal king to you

isa 53:3

He was despised and rejected by mankind,

a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Like one from whom people hide their faces

he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

jesus offspring are this spiritual children the millions of christians all across the planet

1. I don't even know how you guys keep all these conflicting beliefs in your head. Didn't rebutal the point. Can't judge, can't say we are all sinners if you stifled our growth.

2. Wrong. Malachi is a clear WARNING to the priest. That if they don't change the behavior then there will be consequences and it wasn't something god didn't appreciate. God didn't clearly say you have broken the covenant and I have abandoned you.

3. Israel didn't misunderstand the covenant. If they did that would constitute fraud on God's part for allowing death at Masada.

4. Is absolutely about Cyrus. All ancient leaders upon death were treated as going to the afterlife and would interceded on their behalf. READ ABOUT CYRUS'S BODY AFTER HE DIED.http://www.cyrusthegreat.net/ Then read the last part of 52. Jesus is not described in this way. He wasnt disfigured in the face at all. Answer me this when did Isaiah stop talking about Cyrus?

 

[Bodhi]

we have the horse and unicorn and they both exist

he cannot create a freewill humanity that cannot chose to do evil.

1. That's not logically impossible

2. Then he's not omnipotent

what you are talking about is lack of ability not lack of freewill. humanity was made with lack of ability but not lack of freewill. You have the freewill to want to chose to fly under your own power that does not mean you will have the ability.

Why not create humans with the lack of ability to do evil?

Evil could be completely inconceivable to human beings.

They retain free will because they have the freedom to choose

between an infinite number of "good" actions, the same way

you have the freedom to choose

between an infinite number of "possible" actions.