The Scientific Method Applied To Evolution...

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Bambu what you cite is exactly what reproductive isolation is. In an extremely short period of time these flies went from randomly assorted mating to highly exclusive. That is exactly how allopatric speciation is suppose to occur.

This exclusivity occurred in 35 generations which is less than 1 year. If this level of change can occur in behavior in such a short time what do you posit will slow this change over 5 years or 50 years or 500 years. Further physical changes occurred as well since the starch based flies developed midgut changes to handle the food source.

It is obvious you accept change can occur, you keep showing pretty pictures illustrating it, but what do you think holds that change in check over time. If you accept that changes can occur to the fruit flies over time what force holds those changes in check to keep a fruit fly a fruit fly?

Imagine a time machine allowing you move through two special environments populated by 2 groups of fruit flies. This environment has everything the flies need to live. Now move your time machine forward in time by 1000 years. You would expect to see slight difference in the populations. The average size might have shifted or coloration. It might be slight but it is present. Now move that time machine forward 10000 years changes continue to accumulate, but you would still think you are looking at a fruit fly. At 100,000 years though you might have to say the changes are enough that you can not call what you are looking at a fruit fly. Move forward 1,000,000 years, if you think small simple changes can occur in less than 1 year then what do you call something that has seen millions of small changes. Do you honestly think these 2 populations of flies separated for a 1,000,000 years would still be so similar you would consider them the same species?

What force or mechanism to you offer to counter-act the ever-present change in the genetic make up of a population over time?
 
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whar;7689725 said:
Imagine a time machine allowing you move through two special environments populated by 2 groups of fruit flies.

Let's not......

The title of the thread is "The Scientific Method Applied To Evolution".....

Not the "Science-fiction method applied to evolution"......

Let's keep it non-fiction......

whar;7689725 said:
What force or mechanism to you offer to counter-act the ever-present change in the genetic make up of a population over time?

Genetic adaptation......

What we see in the fruit fly experiment.....

Populations of species go through adaptations; however, they remain the same species......

Individuals in different geographic regions and under different environments will develop changes......

But they will only be able to procreate their own kind.

 
whar;7689725 said:
what force holds those changes in check to keep a fruit fly a fruit fly?

The genetic information in the fruit fly's DNA.......

If this DNA is stressed beyond its written instructions it will cease to exist......

 
bambu;7689834 said:
whar;7689725 said:
what force holds those changes in check to keep a fruit fly a fruit fly?

The genetic information in the fruit fly's DNA.......

If this DNA is stressed beyond its written instructions it will cease to exist......

Then why doesn't this appear in nature? Dogs have been genetically stressed from wolves yet they seem to reproduce without any problem. If you are correct we could see that as populations drifted from their core DNA they would begin to die off, however as population move into new environments and start to see changes in their DNA they often flourish.
 
bambu;7689794 said:
whar;7689725 said:
Imagine a time machine allowing you move through two special environments populated by 2 groups of fruit flies.

Let's not......

The title of the thread is "The Scientific Method Applied To Evolution".....

Not the "Science-fiction method applied to evolution"......

Let's keep it non-fiction......

whar;7689725 said:
What force or mechanism to you offer to counter-act the ever-present change in the genetic make up of a population over time?

Genetic adaptation......

What we see in the fruit fly experiment.....

Populations of species go through adaptations; however, they remain the same species......

Individuals in different geographic regions and under different environments will develop changes......

But they will only be able to procreate their own kind.

Using your imagination like I did is called a 'thought experiment'. This guy Einstein like to do it. It is remarkably scientific since the scientist must first use his or her imagination to think up a new idea then the scientific method to test the validity of that idea.

What do you think would happen if you separated 2 groups of fruit flies in 2 different environments for 1,000,000 years. Do you think each group flies would be different from the other?

 
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whar;7691280 said:
bambu;7689834 said:
whar;7689725 said:
what force holds those changes in check to keep a fruit fly a fruit fly?

The genetic information in the fruit fly's DNA.......

If this DNA is stressed beyond its written instructions it will cease to exist......

Then why doesn't this appear in nature? Dogs have been genetically stressed from wolves yet they seem to reproduce without any problem. If you are correct we could see that as populations drifted from their core DNA they would begin to die off, however as population move into new environments and start to see changes in their DNA they often flourish.

It does appear in nature.....

Wolves and dogs are interfertile, meaning they can breed and produce viable offspring.......

In other words, wolves can interbreed with any type of dog, and their offspring are capable of producing offspring themselves.......

The ONLY genetic difference between dogs and wolves is minute......

"Humans have had a large influence on dog DNA too since dogs were domesticated and bred by humans to look the way they do. For instance, humans bred Chihuahuas with other Chihuahuas for a very long time. This means that Chihuahuas have many identical nucleobases on their DNA, and all those puzzle pieces fit together to look like a Chihuahua.

Short segments of genes from a distant dog relative, the gray wolf, were found in every sample of the dogs’ genetic information. However, the nucleotides that make dogs look different were only found in a few areas of the DNA. These reflect the areas that have changed in the centuries since people started breeding dogs for different traits, creating many different breeds of dog in the process.

In humans, our diversity and nucleotide puzzle pieces work differently. Instead of human diversity arising from a few different areas on the gene, the way we look is regulated by hundreds of different weak genes that interact to make us unique!

Dogs may have fewer areas of diversity compared to humans because of what scientists call a gene bottleneck."
http://askabiologist.asu.edu/plosable/dna-dogs

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whar;7691294 said:
bambu;7689794 said:
whar;7689725 said:
Imagine a time machine allowing you move through two special environments populated by 2 groups of fruit flies.

Let's not......

The title of the thread is "The Scientific Method Applied To Evolution".....

Not the "Science-fiction method applied to evolution"......

Let's keep it non-fiction......

whar;7689725 said:
What force or mechanism to you offer to counter-act the ever-present change in the genetic make up of a population over time?

Genetic adaptation......

What we see in the fruit fly experiment.....

Populations of species go through adaptations; however, they remain the same species......

Individuals in different geographic regions and under different environments will develop changes......

But they will only be able to procreate their own kind.

Using your imagination like I did is called a 'thought experiment'. This guy Einstein like to do it. It is remarkably scientific since the scientist must first use his or her imagination to think up a new idea then the scientific method to test the validity of that idea.

What do you think would happen if you separated 2 groups of fruit flies in 2 different environments for 1,000,000 years. Do you think each group flies would be different from the other?

Again....

We are focused On the scientific method.....

The reason that fruit flies are used is because of their rapid generation times and low number of chromosomes....

The massive numbers of generations illustrate the equivalent of millions of years in supposed evolutionary time....

You are not using a thought experiment.....

You are speculating......

But for shits & giggles I will play along....

After millions of years the fruit flies will still be fruit flies....

Any genetic changes will be minute & differing populations will be able to reproduce with each other.....

 
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"After millions of years the fruit flies will still be fruit flies....

Any genetic changes will be minute & differing populations will be able to reproduce with each other....."

Outstanding!!

Now simply alter your time length. Since you accept changes occur extending your timeline increases the amount of difference. After 10,000,000 years you would have 10x the minute changes. After 100,000,000 million you would see 100x these changes. In fact if you altered the environment of one group of flies theses changes would accumulate more quickly. Eventually the genetic differences would be too great to interbreed. If you posit this will never happen ten you need to offer a reason why it would not.

For example, if too many genetic changes accumulate in a population descended from fruit flies compare to the original genetic make-up of those fruit flies the new offspring tend to die from birth defects. This would be a phenomenon that would hold the fruit flies from evolving since the accumulation of changes would cause new offspring to die off. However no such effect appears in nature. Birth defects certainly do but not defects that occur that appear to halt the accumulation of genetic changes. Every time we have examined populations over time they accumulate changes.
 
whar;7693881 said:
"After millions of years the fruit flies will still be fruit flies....

Any genetic changes will be minute & differing populations will be able to reproduce with each other....."

Outstanding!!

Eventually the genetic differences would be too great to interbreed. If you posit this will never happen ten you need to offer a reason why it would not.

It seems like you want to ignore all empirical evidence and rely solely on futile fantasy........

There is no evidence that an organism's DNA can be changed into another organism.........

Your time-machine science-fiction scenario fails......

Why?????

Because DNA is not affected by time......

The key factor in genetic adaptation is the environment.......

Empirical evidence is found throughout the natural world........

Left alone in a stable environment organisms maintain an isolated genetic structure.......

The change over time that has had the largest impact on DNA has been from humans.......

"Prior to their domesticaction, maize plants only grew small, one-inch long corn cobs, and only one per plant. Many centuries of artificial selection by the indigenous people of the Americas resulted in the development of maize plants capable of growing several cobs per plant that were usually several inches long each."

You really need to research what DNA is and its structure......

DNA is a set of written instructions......

The purpose of DNA is to create future generation of cells that will have the same genetic structure of parent cells.....

Once these instructions can no longer replicate its own kind, it will not replicate...........

Sorry, but no birth defects or dramatic "dieing-off" of a species attempting to evolve.....

Only sterility..........

Now you need to offer a reason or observable example for an organisms DNA being able to create any organism with a different DNA structure than its parent.......


 
O. K.

I'm high now.....

What do you suppose we find when we fast forward 100 gabillion years in the future to see our fruit flies......

Bees?????

 
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I don't know if it's a sin to laugh out loud at this like I am. I mean we really hanging it all on the line for some fruit flies bruh? Like I mean is that all you got to clean the bases? This is hysterical! You talk about faith, my goodness!

But there is a way paved with evidence built upon a sure foundation, the solid rock! He's tried and true. He's been put under the microscope and in the test tube of life and they said of Him that 'He did all things well.' I'd like to talk about Him if you don't mind. Let's get off speculation and talk about revelation, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen.
 
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I never said I dislike definitions

the first one you posted was redundant af though

the second one was more useful
 
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DNA is universal in life. The same components that make up a human's DNA appear in a rodents or even a bacteria. Further the codons that code for a certain amino acid in a human will code for the same amino acid in other organisms.

DNA absolutely changes over time. Ageing is a breakdown of DNA in an individual while evolution involves the change of DNA within a population over time. DNA is simply not stable or static, or it is only very rarely in such a state.

This universality and malleability of DNA leads to basic fact of evolution, descent with modification. If you have a population that can take a single step down this evolutionary path like maltose-eating fruit flies, nylon consuming bacteria, or banana eating moths, all representing species that have undergone an evolutionary change, while continuing to thrive then what is stopping that 2nd or 3rd step of genetic change?

Your offer is sterility?

We would then need to see populations of organisms that are running into sterility and we would need to see it pretty often. Yet this does not happen. Endangered populations are under mostly environmental pressures they are not having sterility issues due to DNA changes.
 
Reasons for fruit flies to check evolutionary changes is because they reproduce faster and create more generations in a year than humans in a hundred years. So it stands to logic to see what happens in a year time for fruit flies versus hundred or more years.
 
whar;7703493 said:
DNA is universal in life. The same components that make up a human's DNA appear in a rodents or even a bacteria. Further the codons that code for a certain amino acid in a human will code for the same amino acid in other organisms.

DNA absolutely changes over time. Ageing is a breakdown of DNA in an individual while evolution involves the change of DNA within a population over time. DNA is simply not stable or static, or it is only very rarely in such a state.

This universality and malleability of DNA leads to basic fact of evolution, descent with modification. If you have a population that can take a single step down this evolutionary path like maltose-eating fruit flies, nylon consuming bacteria, or banana eating moths, all representing species that have undergone an evolutionary change, while continuing to thrive then what is stopping that 2nd or 3rd step of genetic change?

Your offer is sterility?

We would then need to see populations of organisms that are running into sterility and we would need to see it pretty often. Yet this does not happen. Endangered populations are under mostly environmental pressures they are not having sterility issues due to DNA changes.

Who wrote the code for your computer?
 
Ajackson17;7703611 said:
Reasons for fruit flies to check evolutionary changes is because they reproduce faster and create more generations in a year than humans in a hundred years. So it stands to logic to see what happens in a year time for fruit flies versus hundred or more years.

A fruit fly is still a fruit fly. It doesn't stop being what is was created to be. There is no evolutionary chain.

No Fruit Fly Evolution Even after 600 Generations
http://www.icr.org/article/5779/

Here is an excerpt from the article above:

"But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms."

tumblr_lphkeyClDW1qaboh9o4_250.gif


Evolution is as dead as this guy:

dodo-bird.jpg


What a tired theory evolution is. It has more holes in it than a box full of cheerios. Amen.
 
Put the bible down and take a couple courses in Biology. They would be happy to show you all the receipts you want.
 
whar;7704510 said:
Put the bible down and take a couple courses in Biology. They would be happy to show you all the receipts you want.

The only individual who needs to take a biology class is you......

Your whole understanding of DNA is way off......

Wolves and dogs are the same species......

The fruit fly experiment produced the same species......

Broccoli and Kale are the same species......

Genetic codes from some organisms will not code in humans......

The only evidence you have for a species changing into another is in your thought experiment imagination........

 
bambu;7704653 said:
whar;7704510 said:
Put the bible down and take a couple courses in Biology. They would be happy to show you all the receipts you want.

The only individual who needs to take a biology class is you......

Your whole understanding of DNA is way off......

Wolves and dogs are the same species......

The fruit fly experiment produced the same species......

Broccoli and Kale are the same species......

Genetic codes from some organisms will not code in humans......

The only evidence you have for a species changing into another is in your thought experiment imagination........

I happily admit I have only an interested layman understanding of DNA, but still argue it exceeds yours.

"Today, the theory of evolution is an accepted fact for everyone but a fundamentalist minority, whose objections are based not on reasoning but on doctrinaire adherence to religious principles" - James Watson

"Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved. " - Francis Crick

Those are the guys that unlocked the secrets of DNA by discovering its structure.

DNA is not a good subject to try and refute evolution.

 

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