The reason I can't get down with one religion hardcore is..

[Rock_Well]

Hmmmm, maybe the supposed contradictions are actually a lack of understanding? Like maybe the way heaven is currently understood is incorrect or not fully understood. And maybe heaven isn’t a final destination after death. After all, jesus did say the kingdom of heaven was at hand. “At hand” meaning within reach, readily available.

Not when clearly proven otherwise, but i understand.

How is this not also true for the bible then? Did man not pen the bible by inspiration of god? Could it not be possible for other texts to be written by inspired people as well?

Problem is the term 'inspiration' is used too broadly. The 'inspiration' of the scriptures is used more narrowly. it means God actually supplied the writer with each word to write - per understanding the Bible. Not just a vague idea of inspiration like when a person is inspired to draw an image or something.

Yeah and I don’t have to jump off a high-rise to understand I’ll splat at the bottom, but we are kind of talking about spiritual wisdom, not material things. So how would you test if there is any truth in supposed spiritual wisdom? Would you use logic, experience, belief, what?

Good question - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)
Me personally, the only test i aim to use is two the Bible offers used way back since the Old Testament. 1. If the spirit prophecies of something and it doesn't come to pass, then we are to know that is not the thing God spoke, but the prophet spoke it presumptuously.(Deuteronomy 18:22) Ok so we know a true prophet of God speaks on events that will ALWAYS come to pass, all the time.
2. If the prophecy spoke by someone DOES come to pass, and they use it as proof to do something contrary to what God said previously, we are not to listen to that prophet. (Deuteronomy 13:2) Here, we are to know God doesn't contradict Himself.

Now, people these days seem to love to learn the hard way. Thus they go out and do just what God warned them not to do. Which doing it this way often proves to be a valuable teacher, but only in the case where the person learns from it, and then changes their ways when they find themselves to be in error with God. Reluctantly, we learn that God was right the whole time.

I don’t recall atm which post that was, however I will admit not everything I say is conventional church teachings, and in my defense I say; I can only relay how I’ve come to understand something. If it’s incorrect, I have faith god will reproach me, always does.

Well it doesn't really matter, it's in the past.

To say the least, i'm glad to learn you have an attitude of willing to accept when God reproaches you for something. God says he does that to those He loves.

I thought I said god couldn’t limit its wisdom and understanding to one text. If you are going to say I said things, please be accurate. What is God’s Will btw?

God's will (last will and testament) is given by Christ and is found in the New Testament, which all of mankind is currently under. God winked at man's ignorance in the past, now he commands all of mankind to repent and change the direction they headed and turn their life over to Him, becoming His child (spiritually) - how to become God's child is outlined in the New Testament.

And by god’s word do you mean the bible? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” So lets exchange ‘word’ for bible. In the beginning was the bible, and the bible was with god and the bible was god. Are you saying god is the bible? Or jesus is the bible? Help me to understand.

Yes, in this instance. In other words, God's word which was revealed for us ALL to see.

Jesus is not the Bible, but he is understood by Christians to be the author. Which is one of the reason why Jesus could speak so thoroughly on Old Testament given to the Jews (He authored it; including the New Testament); one of the reason's why He can tell a person exactly what God means on any particular scripture. "Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; "(Hebrews 12:2)

How is experience not the most reasonable way? What other way is the most reasonable?

It can prove to be a valuable teacher, but only when a person learns from it. Not every person automatically learns from experience. Like i said before, a lot of time learning involves hearing(words). If you want to call that 'experience' then i suppose nothing wrong with that. I personally just like to be more precise with my use of words.

Hmmmm, those sounds a lot like personal experiences to me, and specifically in job’s case, laden with heavy emotions too. If religion didn’t deal with personal experience, how and why would people practice it?

Religion would be pretty worthless if it didn't deal with personal experience at all. I didn't say that, only that not every aspect of a religion should deal with that. Sometimes it's just not all about us like that.

I really don't mind sharing information, but i don't like giving away too much.

I'd be glad talk certain points later through PM if you want.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Not when clearly proven otherwise, but i understand.

You’ve proven or anyone else has proven reincarnation isn’t true? Or that heaven/hell is the end of the road?

Problem is the term 'inspiration' is used too broadly. The 'inspiration' of the scriptures is used more narrowly. it means God actually supplied the writer with each word to write - per understanding the Bible. Not just a vague idea of inspiration like when a person is inspired to draw an image or something.

How do you know that same narrow inspiration wasn’t too given the people of the other texts? Is inspiration only not inspiration when it comes to religious texts?

Good question - Me personally, the only test i aim to use is two the Bible offers used way back since the Old Testament. 1. If the spirit prophecies of something and it doesn't come to pass, then we are to know that is not the thing God spoke, but the prophet spoke it presumptuously. Ok so we know a true prophet of God speaks on events that will ALWAYS come to pass, all the time.
2. If the prophecy spoke by someone DOES come to pass, and they use it as proof to do something contrary to what God said previously, we are not to listen to that prophet. Here, we are to know God doesn't contradict Himself.
Now, people these days seem to love to learn the hard way. Thus they go out and do just what God warned them not to do. Which doing it this way often proves to be a valuable teacher, but only in the case where the person learns from it, and then changes their ways when they find themselves to be in error with God. Reluctantly, we learn that God was right the whole time.

So basically from experience? If we didn’t experience the prophecy, they were full of beans. We didn’t listen to the warning, and had to learn the hard way, through experience.

God's will (last will and testament) is given by Christ and is found in the New Testament, which all of mankind is currently under. God winked at man's ignorance in the past, now he commands all of mankind to repent and change the direction they headed and turn their life over to Him, becoming His child (spiritually) - how to become God's child is outlined in the New Testament.

So the will of god is the bible, and if people followed the bible they would be doing the will of god?

Jesus is not the Bible

So then if jesus nor god are the bible, why do people say the bible is the Word? Because it clearly states that the Word was god.

It can prove to be a valuable teacher, but only when a person learns from it. Not every person automatically learns from experience. Like i said before, a lot of time learning involves hearing(words). If you want to call that 'experience' then i suppose nothing wrong with that. I personally just like to be more precise with my use of words.

So you cannot tell which way is the most reasonable, yet you can tell me which way is not?

Religion would be pretty worthless if it didn't deal with personal experience at all. I didn't say that, only that not every aspect of a religion should deal with that. Sometimes it's just not all about us like that.

Then what’s it about?

I really don't mind sharing information, but i don't like giving away too much.

Giving is the only way to receive. And sharing is the only way to increase.

 

[Rock_Well]

You’ve proven or anyone else has proven reincarnation isn’t true? Or that heaven/hell is the end of the road?

Since when was reincarnation proven?
Then it's just the boundless imagination of man imagining the world around him to work the way he imagines.

How do you know that same narrow inspiration wasn’t too given the people of the other texts? Is inspiration only not inspiration when it comes to religious texts?

Does God lie?

So basically from experience? If we didn’t experience the prophecy, they were full of beans. We didn’t listen to the warning, and had to learn the hard way, through experience.

Ok fine, you win...

People want to have experience their way so bad, let them have it.

God is not going to force a person to do what's right, neither will i try to

So the will of god is the bible, and if people followed the bible they would be doing the will of god?

More specifically, the New Testament - That's right!

So then if jesus nor god are the bible, why do people say the bible is the Word? Because it clearly states that the Word was god.

How did you get that because the Bible says the word was God, that it's not proper to refer to the Bible being God's word?

Then what’s it about?

What's right. What is true. That's what it should be about.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Since when was reincarnation proven?

That is not what is being said. I said “maybe the supposed contradictions are actually a lack of understanding?” Then you replied with “Not when clearly proven otherwise”. And then I said “You’ve proven or anyone else has proven reincarnation isn’t true?” Because you felt reincarnation wasn’t true or real, I said maybe it is lack of understanding, you felt is what clearly proven otherwise, I asked if you or anyone else proved it to be otherwise? I never said it was proven, I asked when was it proven NOT TO BE.

Does God lie?

And by god you are saying the bible? But god isn’t the bible and neither is jesus, you said so yourself. So what is it you are saying? You need to be more precise with your words.

Ok fine, you win...

People want to have experience their way so bad, let them have it.

So you finally understand what I mean by learning through experience? Cuz ya kind of sound bitter.

More specifically, the New Testament - That's right!

But I thought nothing was done but by the will of god. Is there a will of god that exists outside the bible?

How did you get that because the Bible says the word was God, that it's not proper to refer to the Bible being God's word.

Because it says the Word WAS god, and if jesus is god but jesus isn't the bible, then how is the bible god? It may be the words of god, but it doesn’t appear to be thee Word.

“Sometimes it's just not all about us like that.”

Then what’s it about?

What's right. What is true. That's what it should be about.

So its about what’s right and true, in regards to what? Dogs and cats? Or in regards to us and how we should conduct ourselves? Seems like its still all about us.

 

[Rock_Well]

That is not what is being said. I said “maybe the supposed contradictions are actually a lack of understanding?” Then you replied with “Not when clearly proven otherwise”. And then I said “You’ve proven or anyone else has proven reincarnation isn’t true?” Because you felt reincarnation wasn’t true or real, I said maybe it is lack of understanding, you felt is what clearly proven otherwise, I asked if you or anyone else proved it to be otherwise? I never said it was proven, I asked when was it proven NOT TO BE.

1. A 'maybe' doesn't imply a fact.
2. It's easily proven that the idea of reincarnation and what the Bible teaches about men dying once is not just a matter of a misunderstanding. So, here, the 'maybe it is a lack of understanding' possibility is thrown out and we are only left with the necessary conclusion that one of the two doctrine is false.
3. Reincarnation needs to prove itself to be a teaching from God FIRST before we need to regard it as such.

And by god you are saying the bible? But god isn’t the bible and neither is jesus, you said so yourself. So what is it you are saying? You need to be more precise with your words.

I don't need to do anything, particularly when coming from a non-believer of God's word!

No, i don't mean 'The Bible' when i ask if God lies.

So you finally understand what I mean by learning through experience? Cuz ya kind of sound bitter.

I never had trouble understanding that. What doesn't seem to register with you is that a person should not use their own personal experiences and feelings as a standard. Because again, a person can deceive themselves. It seems you hold checking with 'personal experiences' and feelings to be more important then checking with God and the Bible.

The Holy Bible presents itself as a standard for all decisions pertaining to life. A person basing all decision on what is taught therein is right in the sight of God. But "he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatever is not of faith is sin."(Romans 14:23)
In other words, it can still be sinful for a person to act on something from a position of uncertainty in regards to what God said about it - whether it's right or wrong. The fact that they acting without knowing whether God approves first in itself can condemn them.

But continue to regard personal experience as being more important than what God said if that's your desire.

But I thought nothing was done but by the will of god. Is there a will of god that exists outside the bible?

God's will, how it applies to us, is something we must choose to do.

How it applies to God, it something that is always done.

Because it says the Word WAS god, and if jesus is god but jesus isn't the bible, then how is the bible god? It may be the words of god, but it doesn’t appear to be thee Word.

Jesus said of the Father: "Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17)

The Bible, presenting itself as the Truth, is called God's word.

So its about what’s right and true, in regards to what? Dogs and cats? Or in regards to us and how we should conduct ourselves? Seems like its still all about us.

It should be about what's right and true regarding the things of God.

 

[supaman4321]

Peace

This may be worthy of a separate thread.

It should be noted that the books of the Bible encompass a variety of different writing styles, depending on the writer and their literary style. Not only that, but not all of the books are of the same nature. Some books deal mainly with History, some deal specifically with Law, some contain poetry, some contain observations of life, some are letters (epistles)...whatever the book it certainly doesn't come off as being just a inspired book of man to me. The writer speaks as one that holds authority. Not saying this is all that is needed to make a judgment that it's from God, but men compositions aren't usually so compelling.

I never knew the Qu'ran is written in a way that is mean to be recited though. Interesting to say the least, but when it comes to doctrinal matters, the two texts clash on certain points.

Peace

My thing with the bible is that you can tell that it has different authors, would a divinely inspired book need to have incest, murder, or deceit from God's very prophets no less! these are the people we're led to emulate?

The second thing you bring up about the books not having the same nature, how is that a good thing, every ayat (sign, verse, revelation, etc the word has mutiple meanings) is just that a sign for the believers to strengthen them in their faith as well as a reminder on preparing for the life to come, i fail to understand some of the importance of the recollection of the battles in the old testement or some of the "songs".

the writer of the Bible doesn't come off as somebody with authority to me it comes off just like any other regular book that i could pick up in a Barnes and Noble, compare any of the verses of the Bible to these 3 short verses

"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith."

Surah 2: 23 & 24

"do they not then meditate on the Quran? and if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy"

Surah 4: 82

Not only does Allah (swt) proclaim his authority but he's also challenging non-believers to prove him wrong if it's not his work and they feel that their idols or gods can help them! There's NOTHING that challenges the reader in the Bible on the same level that the Qur'an does in my opinion and this is one of the miracles of the Qur'an

This challenge was put fourth during a time when the arabs were at the peak of the ability as far as oratory and remembering and performing poems are concerned, they had such a mastery of the language that chiefs were chosen by who was the most skilled speaker and reciter of poetry, and through a illiterate arab God challenges them (as well as the rest of mankind) to produce a surah (chapter) that could compare to even the smallest chapter of the Qur'an which was only 3 lines long and the test still stands unmatched today!

I don't discredit all of the Bible I do feel that there are parts that remain that you could tell are revelation from God but there are also discrepancies and man-made insertions that God gave no right to be put fourth as well.

If you would like to start a seperate thread feel free and we can continue the discussion there

Salaam alaikum

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

1. A 'maybe' doesn't imply a fact.
2. It's easily proven that the idea of reincarnation and what the Bible teaches about men dying once is not just a matter of a misunderstanding.
3. Reincarnation needs to prove itself to be a teaching from God FIRST before we need to regard it as such.

1. Exactly, that’s why I said maybe, because it hasn’t been proven to be a fact or fiction. In contrast to your saying it isn’t real, in a factual manner.
2. Then you shall have no trouble proving it then shall you?
3. The bible needs to prove itself to be a teaching from God FIRST before we need to regard it as such. Funny how easy that was to flip around.

I don't need to do anything, particularly when coming from a non-believer of God's word!
No, i don't mean 'The Bible' when i ask if God lies.

o0o0o0o0o you are getting bitter or sour. So god IS the bible?

I never had trouble understanding that. What doesn't seem to register with you is that a person should not use their own personal experiences and feelings as a standard. Because again, a person can deceive themselves. It seems you hold checking with 'personal experiences' and feelings to be more important then checking with God and the Bible.

For some peculiar reason you are taking great offence to this experience thing. I am quite aware of how we deceive ourselves. But if experience cannot corroborate the spiritual wisdom and understanding of the bible, how could people witness to its truth? They couldn’t, they would merely be parroting what they heard and read.

But continue to regard experience as being more important than what God said if that's your desire.

You cast experience down, though if you had not experienced the truth in the bible, you wouldn’t be following it.

God's will, how it applies to us, is something we must choose to do.

How it applies to God, it something that is always done.

I’m starting to think you don’t understand what god’s will is.

The Bible, presenting itself as the Truth, is called God's word.

So god and jesus ARE the bible?

It should be about what's right and true regarding the things of God.

In regards to us. It wasn’t made for the birds and the bees.

 

[Rock_Well]

Peace

My thing with the bible is that you can tell that it has different authors, would a divinely inspired book need to have incest, murder, or deceit from God's very prophets no less! these are the people we're led to emulate?

The second thing you bring up about the books not having the same nature, how is that a good thing, every ayat (sign, verse, revelation, etc the word has mutiple meanings) is just that a sign for the believers to strengthen them in their faith as well as a reminder on preparing for the life to come, i fail to understand some of the importance of the recollection of the battles in the old testement or some of the "songs".

the writer of the Bible doesn't come off as somebody with authority to me it comes off just like any other regular book that i could pick up in a Barnes and Noble, compare any of the verses of the Bible to these 3 short verses

"And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith."

Surah 2: 23 & 24

"do they not then meditate on the Quran? and if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy"

Surah 4: 82

Not only does Allah (swt) proclaim his authority but he's also challenging non-believers to prove him wrong if it's not his work and they feel that their idols or gods can help them! There's NOTHING that challenges the reader in the Bible on the same level that the Qur'an does in my opinion and this is one of the miracles of the Qur'an

This challenge was put fourth during a time when the arabs were at the peak of the ability as far as oratory and remembering and performing poems are concerned, they had such a mastery of the language that chiefs were chosen by who was the most skilled speaker and reciter of poetry, and through a illiterate arab God challenges them (as well as the rest of mankind) to produce a surah (chapter) that could compare to even the smallest chapter of the Qur'an which was only 3 lines long and the test still stands unmatched today!

I don't discredit all of the Bible I do feel that there are parts that remain that you could tell are revelation from God but there are also discrepancies and man-made insertions that God gave no right to be put fourth as well.

If you would like to start a seperate thread feel free and we can continue the discussion there

Salaam alaikum

I might do a thread later just contrasting differences

 

[Rock_Well]

1. Exactly, that’s why I said maybe, because it hasn’t been proven to be a fact or fiction. In contrast to your saying it isn’t real, in a factual manner.

2. Then you shall have no trouble proving it then shall you?

3. The bible needs to prove itself to be a teaching from God FIRST before we need to regard it as such. Funny how easy that was to flip around.

1. Ok, and i don't see how agreeing with me refutes my earlier point that since it's not proven then i don't have to accept it as being fact or being from God.

2. Prove that the idea reincarnation and the idea of living once doesn't conflict. And if all you gonna offer is your opinion then there's nothing to discuss.

3. Flipping the statement around doesn't refute my earlier point either. You the one building a case for reincarnation on no solid foundation and no evidence. The Bible has already been tested/proven to be from God. The evidence that the Bible is from God is available. If you deny the evidence, that's your own decision.

o0o0o0o0o you are getting bitter or sour. So god IS the bible?

Um...no?

And i do see you building them scarecrows like you preparing for the harvest though.

where's your point?

For some peculiar reason you are taking great offence to this experience thing. I am quite aware of how we deceive ourselves. But if experience cannot corroborate the spiritual wisdom and understanding of the bible, how could people witness to its truth? They couldn’t, they would merely be parroting what they heard and read.

No offense was offered friend.. who's taking it?

Sry to see you building another straw-man.

You cast experience down, though if you had not experienced the truth in the bible, you wouldn’t be following it.

I’m starting to think you don’t understand what god’s will is.

Not my fault you not allowed to take a biblical doctrine and define it according to your own wants.

"For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;" (2 Timothy 4:3)



no need to address the rest.

Holla

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Well that was predictable.