Skyfather level tournament

[jaxn]

Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.

So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I

that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto

 

[jaxn]

Shuma has just made an appearance, so let's see where Marvel goes with this showing. Perhaps he's the Great Destroyer for this event

 

[The Lonious Monk]

So we should make Shuma the exception because he is on panel less. Is anything Shuma has done above beating eternity though? If we're going by top feats. Dormammu wins. If we're going by consistency Dormammu wins. The only way Dormammu can logically be below Shuma is to go by his off panel feats. That seems like you're deciding to use the criteria that best serves your argument. Shuma's biggest off panel/word of mouth feat is he being sugnificantly stronger than Mephisto. Mephisto ain't shit out of his realm. In fact he lost yo panther out of his realm. That's not a large enough feat to determine he is over Dormammu. I am really just trying to understand, not dissing or anything

What exception? The statement we have from a reliable source assessing his power puts him above the other Demon Lords. The few feats or on-panel hints about his power are beyond what we've seen from the other Demon Lords. That is why I say he's above Dormammu. No, it's not a rock solid case where he has a ton of feats that Dormammu can't replicate, but that's largely because he hasn't even shown up in the comics much. You want to ignore everything that would point us towards believing he is more powerful simply because Dormammu has more feats even though that's more due to Dormammu having more panel time than anything else. That doesn't make sense. We can say tentatively based on the limited information we have, Shuma is more powerful. That's my stance. We can also say that there really isn't enough reliable information available to draw a strong conclusion. That's fair. But there is no way you can say that Dormammu is above or even on Shuma's level because there is absolutely nothing at all supporting that claim.

On a side note, Shuma has conquered over 100 universes. That means he's subjugated over 100 Eternities. And Eternity is part of a larger multi-versal being meaning that unlike characters like Galactus who are completely different characters from universe to universe, all the Eternities are related and cognizant of each other.

 

[jaxn]

where was it ever stated or shown he's subjugated 100 Eternities?

 

[The Lonious Monk]

He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.

 

[evoljeanyes]

So we should make Shuma the exception because he is on panel less. Is anything Shuma has done above beating eternity though? If we're going by top feats. Dormammu wins. If we're going by consistency Dormammu wins. The only way Dormammu can logically be below Shuma is to go by his off panel feats. That seems like you're deciding to use the criteria that best serves your argument. Shuma's biggest off panel/word of mouth feat is he being sugnificantly stronger than Mephisto. Mephisto ain't shit out of his realm. In fact he lost yo panther out of his realm. That's not a large enough feat to determine he is over Dormammu. I am really just trying to understand, not dissing or anything

What exception? The statement we have from a reliable source assessing his power puts him above the other Demon Lords. The few feats or on-panel hints about his power are beyond what we've seen from the other Demon Lords. That is why I say he's above Dormammu. No, it's not a rock solid case where he has a ton of feats that Dormammu can't replicate, but that's largely because he hasn't even shown up in the comics much. You want to ignore everything that would point us towards believing he is more powerful simply because Dormammu has more feats even though that's more due to Dormammu having more panel time than anything else. That doesn't make sense. We can say tentatively based on the limited information we have, Shuma is more powerful. That's my stance. We can also say that there really isn't enough reliable information available to draw a strong conclusion. That's fair. But there is no way you can say that Dormammu is above or even on Shuma's level because there is absolutely nothing at all supporting that claim.

On a side note, Shuma has conquered over 100 universes. That means he's subjugated over 100 Eternities. And Eternity is part of a larger multi-versal being meaning that unlike characters like Galactus who are completely different characters from universe to universe, all the Eternities are related and cognizant of each other.

Bro, I understand. I agree that Shuma is above Dormammu I said that. I was just trying to understand why you decided on Shuma.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

I said before. Strange statement suggest he is and his mere manifestation in the 616 Universe seemed to be far more dire than Dormammu's has ever been. I get that that is not the greatest proof, but it's as much as we have, so I'm not going to discount it.

 

[jaxn]

He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.

so you just made that part up

 

[evoljeanyes]

Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.

So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I

that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto

That's a faulty statement. Thanos beats Surfer's ass quickly. Thanos ran up on Galactus and built a being as powerful as Galactus. Yeah Mephisto has power in his realm, but to say he is above Thanos a lot is bullshit. You literally argued in another thread that cyttorak has little to no feats in outside his realm which makes him weak. Now we have to ignore each that flaw with Mephisto. By the way having your realm eaten isn't a damn stalemate. He treated Mephisto like a nuisance.

 

[evoljeanyes]

He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.

so you just made that part up

It seems more like speculation. Logical. But speculative. Inaccurate speculation given the lack of continuity between writers.

 

[jaxn]

Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.

So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I

that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto

That's a faulty statement. Thanos beats Surfer's ass quickly. Thanos ran up on Galactus and built a being as powerful as Galactus. Yeah Mephisto has power in his realm, but to say he is above Thanos a lot is bullshit. You literally argued in another thread that cyttorak has little to no feats in outside his realm which makes him weak. Now we have to ignore each that flaw with Mephisto. By the way having your realm eaten isn't a damn stalemate. He treated Mephisto like a nuisance.

I don't recall arguing about Cytorrak, but ok. Thanos has never been a threat to Galactus and that clone being as strong as Galactus is hyperbole, since you know, Thanos has no idea how powerful Galactus truly is. Its common knowledge that Thanos isn't as powerful as a hell lord. Mephisto is a hell lord. His fights with Surfer and Thor are about obtaining their souls, it's not about beating them to a pulp since he's cabable of killing them both rather easily. He sees the Surfer as one with one of the nobliest, purest souls in the universe..Galactus threaten to eat the realm because the battle with Mephisto was going on much longer than he anticipated. When has Thanos ever challenged Galactus this way? When Thanos got the sucker shot in on a starving Galactus in the Hunger, what happened to him? Thanos was happy to still be alive after a casual blast from Galactus penetrated his shielding and nearly killed him. I mean we can agree to disagree on this one

 

[evoljeanyes]

Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.

So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I

that's fine, but you do know he's made several more appearances other than in BP. You do realize he's held his own against Galactus and has actually killed the Surfer before? He's more powerful in his realm like most of these magical beings, but he's pretty powerful outside of his realm as well. As powerful as Thanos is, he's just not on the level of Mephisto

That's a faulty statement. Thanos beats Surfer's ass quickly. Thanos ran up on Galactus and built a being as powerful as Galactus. Yeah Mephisto has power in his realm, but to say he is above Thanos a lot is bullshit. You literally argued in another thread that cyttorak has little to no feats in outside his realm which makes him weak. Now we have to ignore each that flaw with Mephisto. By the way having your realm eaten isn't a damn stalemate. He treated Mephisto like a nuisance.

I don't recall arguing about Cytorrak, but ok. Thanos has never been a threat to Galactus and that clone being as strong as Galactus is hyperbole, since you know, Thanos has no idea how powerful Galactus truly is. Its common knowledge that Thanos isn't as powerful as a hell lord. Mephisto is a hell lord. His fights with Surfer and Thor are about obtaining their souls, it's not about beating them to a pulp since he's cabable of killing them both rather easily. He sees the Surfer as one with one of the nobliest, purest souls in the universe..Galactus threaten to eat the realm because the battle with Mephisto was going on much longer than he anticipated. When has Thanos ever challenged Galactus this way? When Thanos got the sucker shot in on a starving Galactus in the Hunger, what happened to him? Thanos was happy to still be alive after a casual blast from Galactus penetrated his shielding and nearly killed him. I mean we can agree to disagree on this one

@jaxn dude we're just talking, bruh...no diss. Tell me where this common knowledge comes from bro. Thanos treats Mephisto like Warlock treats Surfer you just know who the authority is on the matter. Have you read Infinity Crusade?

 

[jaxn]

no diss meant. this knowledge comes from the comics. I can't say if Thanos is more powerful than any hell lord. I do have Infinity Crusade, it was a pretty decent story arc but i haven't read it in years. The only time I recall Mephisto playing the lackey to Thanos is when Thanos was obtaining the gems..Mephisto lied to Thanos so he could later betray him and steal the power for himself. Meph's fight with Galactus was said to shake the cosmos as they battled, which is why he eventually threatened to eat his realm. He's not more powerful than Galan by no means though. Mephisto originally was the one who played a role in the creation of Ghost Rider. Mephisto walks around granting folks immortality and is resposibe for Mary Jane and Spiderman's marriage being wiped away. He also removed the memory of Spiderman's secret identity from everyone on the planet after Civil War. Like i said though, we can agree to disagree, its no biggie

 

[Bcotton5]

no diss meant. this knowledge comes from the comics. I can't say if Thanos is more powerful than any hell lord. I do have Infinity Crusade, it was a pretty decent story arc but i haven't read it in years. The only time I recall Mephisto playing the lackey to Thanos is when Thanos was obtaining the gems..Mephisto lied to Thanos so he could later betray him and steal the power for himself. Meph's fight with Galactus was said to shake the cosmos as they battled, which is why he eventually threatened to eat his realm. He's not more powerful than Galan by no means though. Mephisto originally was the one who played a role in the creation of Ghost Rider. Mephisto walks around granting folks immortality and is resposibe for Mary Jane and Spiderman's marriage being wiped away. He also removed the memory of Spiderman's secret identity from everyone on the planet after Civil War. Like i said though, we can agree to disagree, its no biggie

Thanos gave Deadpool immortality

 

[evoljeanyes]

@jaxn yeah we're probably going to have to disagree on this one bruh. Its all good.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.

so you just made that part up

It seems more like speculation. Logical. But speculative. Inaccurate speculation given the lack of continuity between writers.

How did I make it up? I guess you could say it's speculation, but it isn't really. It's canonical fact that every universe has an Eternity. Each Eternity is the embodiment of that particular universe. Shuma subjugating a universe means he has also subjugated that universe's Eternity. That's not speculation. That's a logical consequence of the facts at hand. Now it's speculation to say that Shuma beat all those Eternities in open combat. That's true, but whether it was done through combat or not, subjugating universes in the Marvel Universe means supplanting not just Eternity but a host of cosmics because we've seen what happens when threats try to take over a universe. Dormammu has never done it. He's taken over lots of other dimensions, but that's not the same.

 

[evoljeanyes]

He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.

so you just made that part up

It seems more like speculation. Logical. But speculative. Inaccurate speculation given the lack of continuity between writers.

How did I make it up? I guess you could say it's speculation, but it isn't really. It's canonical fact that every universe has an Eternity. Each Eternity is the embodiment of that particular universe. Shuma subjugating a universe means he has also subjugated that universe's Eternity. That's not speculation. That's a logical consequence of the facts at hand. Now it's speculation to say that Shuma beat all those Eternities in open combat. That's true, but whether it was done through combat or not, subjugating universes in the Marvel Universe means supplanting not just Eternity but a host of cosmics because we've seen what happens when threats try to take over a universe. Dormammu has never done it. He's taken over lots of other dimensions, but that's not the same.

I was kind of defending you, G. @jaxn believed that you made it up. I believed that you used logic to come to a conclusion. I think its hard to do that because of the way Marvel ignored continuity from writer to writer. Logically I think Dormammu is somewhere in between Shuma and Mephisto, but far closer to Shuma than Mephisto.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

He's subjugated 100+ Universes. In Marvel, we've seen that the Eternity we know is part of a multi-versal conglomerate and all Marvel universes have a counterpart. Shuma couldn't have taken over those Universes without coming into conflict with the associated Eternity.

so you just made that part up

It seems more like speculation. Logical. But speculative. Inaccurate speculation given the lack of continuity between writers.

How did I make it up? I guess you could say it's speculation, but it isn't really. It's canonical fact that every universe has an Eternity. Each Eternity is the embodiment of that particular universe. Shuma subjugating a universe means he has also subjugated that universe's Eternity. That's not speculation. That's a logical consequence of the facts at hand. Now it's speculation to say that Shuma beat all those Eternities in open combat. That's true, but whether it was done through combat or not, subjugating universes in the Marvel Universe means supplanting not just Eternity but a host of cosmics because we've seen what happens when threats try to take over a universe. Dormammu has never done it. He's taken over lots of other dimensions, but that's not the same.

I was kind of defending you, G. @jaxn believed that you made it up. I believed that you used logic to come to a conclusion. I think its hard to do that because of the way Marvel ignored continuity from writer to writer. Logically I think Dormammu is somewhere in between Shuma and Mephisto, but far closer to Shuma than Mephisto.

No I get it. I just tagged onto our response. I wasn't refuting anything you said.

 

[Bcotton5]

Im guessing nobody read Mighty Avengers 2 yet?

 

[evoljeanyes]

Im guessing nobody read Mighty Avengers 2 yet?

Why you say that @bcotton5 what happened?