Skyfather level tournament

[jaxn]

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

I understand it's nice to have feats to back statements, but you can't say that statements are exaggerated or false just because there are no in-story feats to back them. These are comic book stories not real life. If Strange has sensed or come in contact with the energies of both and made that declaration, we don't need feats to take him at his word. If the writer chooses that as his particular tool to reveal information, you have to accept the information given. You can't dismiss it because the information wasn't exposed in the way you prefer. There is no reason to believe Strange was exaggerating, and given what happened when only a portion of Shuma's essence was channeled through Strange, I'd say that his assertion was supported.

unfortunately these are comics and statements such as this requires supporting evidence..for instance, I can say Dormmy fought Eternity twice, there's canon issues showing the fight to back up this claim. Dr. Strange couldn't comprehend what he was witnessing when Eternity and Dormmy fought. The same can't be said for Shuma. I remember when Squirrel Girl was first introduced into Marvel..it was stated that she beat Thanos, which is absurd, but she would now belive she's >> Thanos?

 

[jaxn]

@theLonious, Shuma has been spoken of highly, especially when trying to associate him with the many angled ones, but i'm not too sure it actually panned out that way in Marvel.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

I understand it's nice to have feats to back statements, but you can't say that statements are exaggerated or false just because there are no in-story feats to back them. These are comic book stories not real life. If Strange has sensed or come in contact with the energies of both and made that declaration, we don't need feats to take him at his word. If the writer chooses that as his particular tool to reveal information, you have to accept the information given. You can't dismiss it because the information wasn't exposed in the way you prefer. There is no reason to believe Strange was exaggerating, and given what happened when only a portion of Shuma's essence was channeled through Strange, I'd say that his assertion was supported.

unfortunately these are comics and statements such as this requires supporting evidence..for instance, I can say Dormmy fought Eternity twice, there's canon issues showing the fight to back up this claim. Dr. Strange couldn't comprehend what he was witnessing when Eternity and Dormmy fought. The same can't be said for Shuma. I remember when Squirrel Girl was first introduced into Marvel..it was stated that she beat Thanos, which is absurd, but she would now belive she's >> Thanos?

I disagree with this. I think in comics and fiction in general, you have to take statements like that as fact until they are proven wrong. It's not real life. There doesn't have to be evidence supporting a claim. As I said before, if I writer chooses to develop a character through third party statements, you have to accept those statements as they are presented. You can't just dismiss them because you prefer to believe they are false or exaggerated.

 

[DarkRaiden]

Shuma doesn't have a lot of showings, but that's mostly because he hasn't even been around much. You can't automatically used that to say that Dormammu is more powerful.

Strange said that demons like Mephisto and Satannish are like mice compared to Shuma. Now Dormammu is stronger than them too, but not to that degree.

What are Shuma's feats other than Strange's hyperbole in that one issue? Satannish is quite likely more powerful as well. Lesser demons are like gnats to Shuma but that goes for Satannish and Dormammu

Strange specifically named Satannish as one of the demons that were like mice to Shuma. And just because you don't like a statement, doesn't mean it's hyperbole. Strange is someone that has dealt with a variety of demons so he's the best character to compare their power. There was nothing to suggest his statement was hyperbole and not his honest assessment of how Shuma compared to other demons.

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

Shuma was able to at least stalemate the Vishanti, 3 Galactus level beings (Agamotto essentially stalemated Galactus and implied he was gonna win but....w/e), he beat Strange after Strange absorbed Nightmare, and Arioch who could be "as powerful as he wished" and when Strange had Shuma's powers, his very presence was said to destroy Galaxies. Take note that this is Classic Strange that lost (until he became Shuma), same Classic Strange that beat the In-Betweener (near Galactus level), was able to become Eternity, drive off Galactus, and impress/beat Living Tribunal.

Also when Sise-neg recreated the Marvel Universes he specifically didn't want to fight Shuma Gorath, fearing he would drain too much of his energy and he would fail at his task. He sneak attacked him and put him to sleep from afar.

He also made the Galactus Engine with the other, weaker Many Angled Ones, the Galactus engine was beating on Celestials and other cosmic abstracts, and he took over many universes (speculations says he beat many Eternities and Galactuses and maybe Infinity Gauntlets to do it).

Shuma doesn't have a lot of showings, but that's mostly because he hasn't even been around much. You can't automatically used that to say that Dormammu is more powerful.

Strange said that demons like Mephisto and Satannish are like mice compared to Shuma. Now Dormammu is stronger than them too, but not to that degree.

dormammu created Satannish he's leagues above them

Not necessarily. Mephisto created Blackheart and yet Blackheart is at least his equal, generally seen as stronger and has usurped him from Hell before. Also Strange and Doom barely escaped Mephisto's realm with prep, while Dormammu has been beaten by far less. Not to mention Mephisto stalemated Galactus, and warped reality (spider-man's marriage), and had Reed Richards shook saying that he couldn't rescue his wife or child even with infinite time and prep. People say this, but it's not necessarily true.

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

I understand it's nice to have feats to back statements, but you can't say that statements are exaggerated or false just because there are no in-story feats to back them. These are comic book stories not real life. If Strange has sensed or come in contact with the energies of both and made that declaration, we don't need feats to take him at his word. If the writer chooses that as his particular tool to reveal information, you have to accept the information given. You can't dismiss it because the information wasn't exposed in the way you prefer. There is no reason to believe Strange was exaggerating, and given what happened when only a portion of Shuma's essence was channeled through Strange, I'd say that his assertion was supported.

unfortunately these are comics and statements such as this requires supporting evidence..for instance, I can say Dormmy fought Eternity twice, there's canon issues showing the fight to back up this claim. Dr. Strange couldn't comprehend what he was witnessing when Eternity and Dormmy fought. The same can't be said for Shuma. I remember when Squirrel Girl was first introduced into Marvel..it was stated that she beat Thanos, which is absurd, but she would now belive she's >> Thanos?

Actually yeah Squirrel Girl is above Thanos. It's her gimmick, she beat him, Ego the living planet, Doom, and I've seen some say Galactus. She's meant to be a joke but powerful due to her being a joke.

 

[jaxn]

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

I understand it's nice to have feats to back statements, but you can't say that statements are exaggerated or false just because there are no in-story feats to back them. These are comic book stories not real life. If Strange has sensed or come in contact with the energies of both and made that declaration, we don't need feats to take him at his word. If the writer chooses that as his particular tool to reveal information, you have to accept the information given. You can't dismiss it because the information wasn't exposed in the way you prefer. There is no reason to believe Strange was exaggerating, and given what happened when only a portion of Shuma's essence was channeled through Strange, I'd say that his assertion was supported.

unfortunately these are comics and statements such as this requires supporting evidence..for instance, I can say Dormmy fought Eternity twice, there's canon issues showing the fight to back up this claim. Dr. Strange couldn't comprehend what he was witnessing when Eternity and Dormmy fought. The same can't be said for Shuma. I remember when Squirrel Girl was first introduced into Marvel..it was stated that she beat Thanos, which is absurd, but she would now belive she's >> Thanos?

I disagree with this. I think in comics and fiction in general, you have to take statements like that as fact until they are proven wrong. It's not real life. There doesn't have to be evidence supporting a claim. As I said before, if I writer chooses to develop a character through third party statements, you have to accept those statements as they are presented. You can't just dismiss them because you prefer to believe they are false or exaggerated.

unfortunately in comics some statements must be backed up to have legitimacy. For instance, i haven't come across anyone who believes Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. With Dormmy we actually have several fights showing his status. One of his fights with Eternity was said to have blinked out every star in the universe, however they actually showed them fighting

 

[jaxn]

Shuma doesn't have a lot of showings, but that's mostly because he hasn't even been around much. You can't automatically used that to say that Dormammu is more powerful.

Strange said that demons like Mephisto and Satannish are like mice compared to Shuma. Now Dormammu is stronger than them too, but not to that degree.

What are Shuma's feats other than Strange's hyperbole in that one issue? Satannish is quite likely more powerful as well. Lesser demons are like gnats to Shuma but that goes for Satannish and Dormammu

Strange specifically named Satannish as one of the demons that were like mice to Shuma. And just because you don't like a statement, doesn't mean it's hyperbole. Strange is someone that has dealt with a variety of demons so he's the best character to compare their power. There was nothing to suggest his statement was hyperbole and not his honest assessment of how Shuma compared to other demons.

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

Shuma was able to at least stalemate the Vishanti, 3 Galactus level beings (Agamotto essentially stalemated Galactus and implied he was gonna win but....w/e), he beat Strange after Strange absorbed Nightmare, and Arioch who could be "as powerful as he wished" and when Strange had Shuma's powers, his very presence was said to destroy Galaxies. Take note that this is Classic Strange that lost (until he became Shuma), same Classic Strange that beat the In-Betweener (near Galactus level), was able to become Eternity, drive off Galactus, and impress/beat Living Tribunal.

Also when Sise-neg recreated the Marvel Universes he specifically didn't want to fight Shuma Gorath, fearing he would drain too much of his energy and he would fail at his task. He sneak attacked him and put him to sleep from afar.

He also made the Galactus Engine with the other, weaker Many Angled Ones, the Galactus engine was beating on Celestials and other cosmic abstracts, and he took over many universes (speculations says he beat many Eternities and Galactuses and maybe Infinity Gauntlets to do it).

Shuma doesn't have a lot of showings, but that's mostly because he hasn't even been around much. You can't automatically used that to say that Dormammu is more powerful.

Strange said that demons like Mephisto and Satannish are like mice compared to Shuma. Now Dormammu is stronger than them too, but not to that degree.

dormammu created Satannish he's leagues above them

Not necessarily. Mephisto created Blackheart and yet Blackheart is at least his equal, generally seen as stronger and has usurped him from Hell before. Also Strange and Doom barely escaped Mephisto's realm with prep, while Dormammu has been beaten by far less. Not to mention Mephisto stalemated Galactus, and warped reality (spider-man's marriage), and had Reed Richards shook saying that he couldn't rescue his wife or child even with infinite time and prep. People say this, but it's not necessarily true.

what are Shuma's feats? Unless there's something shown to support Strange's comments, then its hyperbole. It's not a matter of me liking the statement or character because i really don't care. I would not place Shuma above Odin

I understand it's nice to have feats to back statements, but you can't say that statements are exaggerated or false just because there are no in-story feats to back them. These are comic book stories not real life. If Strange has sensed or come in contact with the energies of both and made that declaration, we don't need feats to take him at his word. If the writer chooses that as his particular tool to reveal information, you have to accept the information given. You can't dismiss it because the information wasn't exposed in the way you prefer. There is no reason to believe Strange was exaggerating, and given what happened when only a portion of Shuma's essence was channeled through Strange, I'd say that his assertion was supported.

unfortunately these are comics and statements such as this requires supporting evidence..for instance, I can say Dormmy fought Eternity twice, there's canon issues showing the fight to back up this claim. Dr. Strange couldn't comprehend what he was witnessing when Eternity and Dormmy fought. The same can't be said for Shuma. I remember when Squirrel Girl was first introduced into Marvel..it was stated that she beat Thanos, which is absurd, but she would now belive she's >> Thanos?

Actually yeah Squirrel Girl is above Thanos. It's her gimmick, she beat him, Ego the living planet, Doom, and I've seen some say Galactus. She's meant to be a joke but powerful due to her being a joke.

The Vishanti fight is a nice feat

 

[evoljeanyes]

@darkraiden yea she is a gimmick...which is code for plot device. But logically in a battle thread you don't argue that squirrel girl beats Thanos.

Also Mephisto is overrated...I can see how he is above teambuster level. He has lost to Thor and Adam Warlock. Thanos doesn't lose to Mephisto.

Eating the realm you control is trying your life. Ego stopped Galactus from eating him. I think Ego is above Mephisto and Ego is low sky father.

Galactus engine wants none of Galactus. People make shit. Doesn't mean they are above this things. Fuy and Jim Jasper's were equal! I think people having realms is a plot device as well which why cyttorak loses major points with me. If you weaken outside your realm you're lame. Odin doesn't weaken outside of Asgard.

Could we be overeating sis-neg?

 

[The Lonious Monk]

unfortunately in comics some statements must be backed up to have legitimacy. For instance, i haven't come across anyone who believes Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. With Dormmy we actually have several fights showing his status. One of his fights with Eternity was said to have blinked out every star in the universe, however they actually showed them fighting

The difference is that Squirrel Girl is obviously meant to be taken as a joke.

Also, Dormy's was not at his normal power levels when he fought Eternity so that doesn't count. I agree with you that it would be nice to have feats to back up statements, but in the case of characters who aren't used much like Shuma, he's not going to have a bunch of in book feats, so all we can go by is the statements we are given.

 

[jaxn]

unfortunately in comics some statements must be backed up to have legitimacy. For instance, i haven't come across anyone who believes Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. With Dormmy we actually have several fights showing his status. One of his fights with Eternity was said to have blinked out every star in the universe, however they actually showed them fighting

The difference is that Squirrel Girl is obviously meant to be taken as a joke.

Also, Dormy's was not at his normal power levels when he fought Eternity so that doesn't count. I agree with you that it would be nice to have feats to back up statements, but in the case of characters who aren't used much like Shuma, he's not going to have a bunch of in book feats, so all we can go by is the statements we are given.

that's the thing..statements are always given in books. Superman said that Thor was the toughest opponent he ever faced, despite being killed by Doomsday. Dormammu fought Eternity twice..once with the aid of his sister and other just his own power..which one are you referring to?

@evil, Mephisto is more powerful than Thanos

 

[evoljeanyes]

unfortunately in comics some statements must be backed up to have legitimacy. For instance, i haven't come across anyone who believes Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. With Dormmy we actually have several fights showing his status. One of his fights with Eternity was said to have blinked out every star in the universe, however they actually showed them fighting

The difference is that Squirrel Girl is obviously meant to be taken as a joke.

Also, Dormy's was not at his normal power levels when he fought Eternity so that doesn't count. I agree with you that it would be nice to have feats to back up statements, but in the case of characters who aren't used much like Shuma, he's not going to have a bunch of in book feats, so all we can go by is the statements we are given.

that's the thing..statements are always given in books. Superman said that Thor was the toughest opponent he ever faced, despite being killed by Doomsday. Dormammu fought Eternity twice..once with the aid of his sister and other just his own power..which one are you referring to?

@evil, Mephisto is more powerful than Thanos

How exactly...feat for feat is Mephisto over Thanos? Mephisto has been hugely amped by fans. In fact Dr. Fate and Mephisto are the most overrated cats in all comic book forum history.

 

[jaxn]

Mephisto is a hell lord. His power dwarfs Thanos and its always been that way.

 

[The Lonious Monk]

unfortunately in comics some statements must be backed up to have legitimacy. For instance, i haven't come across anyone who believes Squirrel Girl is more powerful than Thanos. With Dormmy we actually have several fights showing his status. One of his fights with Eternity was said to have blinked out every star in the universe, however they actually showed them fighting

The difference is that Squirrel Girl is obviously meant to be taken as a joke.

Also, Dormy's was not at his normal power levels when he fought Eternity so that doesn't count. I agree with you that it would be nice to have feats to back up statements, but in the case of characters who aren't used much like Shuma, he's not going to have a bunch of in book feats, so all we can go by is the statements we are given.

that's the thing..statements are always given in books. Superman said that Thor was the toughest opponent he ever faced, despite being killed by Doomsday. Dormammu fought Eternity twice..once with the aid of his sister and other just his own power..which one are you referring to?

@evil, Mephisto is more powerful than Thanos

Well, I thought you were talking about the one he won. The other one he was fairly easily dismissed to another realm if I remember correctly, so there is no point in even bringing that one up. But I might be forgetting details.

 

[jaxn]

yeah you're forgetting the details

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Well, the fact remains that he lost. Sure the scale of the battle was huge, but all cosmic battles are huge. Hell, when Galactus attacked Thanos with the IG, it said that they were basically ripping reality apart. Galactus still took an ass whooping.

 

[evoljeanyes]

Mephisto is a hell lord. His power dwarfs Thanos and its always been that way.

In infinity Crusade Mephisto was petrified of Thanos (with no power ups). I am not sure thats accurate...Mephisto also loses a lot...and he had much more trouble with Surfer than Thanos ever had and he lost to Warlock, and he lost to black panther...there is no evidence that he dwarfs Thanos.

 

[jaxn]

Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.

 

[evoljeanyes]

Either way you slice it, no matter what, There is no evidence to say Shuma is over dormammu, @Theloniousmonk that would be like you using the argument @darkraiden used to denounce Galactus. Gal doesn't want to conquer universes. The same can be said for Dormammu when saying he is never been the thread that Shuma has. Dormammu has better on panel feats...Shuma's everything is basically from word of mouth...That's like believing Sentry is equal galactus, or Black bolt is the strongest character with earth affiliation...so on and so forth. Gladiator said once they he could never beat Thor...Thor said he never experienced anyone as strong as Supes. Cyttorak has hella hyperbolic feats...as does Juggy.

Shuma in his few feats has some low showings...and saying he Dwarfs inconsistent as hell-lords who are written anywhere from top-tier to sky-father is meaningless as well

 

[evoljeanyes]

Mephisto is borderline skyfather level. He doesn't fight folks like Surfer and Warlock to beat them. He fights them for their souls. He can't have their souls if he flat out kills them. Compare Mephisto's fight with Galactus with Thanos'. BP specially created a plan to cut Mephisto off from his realm.

So you're taking someone who is great in their realm but without it loses to Panther over Thanos? I am sorry, I just disagree. I

 

[The Lonious Monk]

Either way you slice it, no matter what, There is no evidence to say Shuma is over dormammu, @Theloniousmonk that would be like you using the argument @darkraiden used to denounce Galactus. Gal doesn't want to conquer universes. The same can be said for Dormammu when saying he is never been the thread that Shuma has. Dormammu has better on panel feats...Shuma's everything is basically from word of mouth...That's like believing Sentry is equal galactus, or Black bolt is the strongest character with earth affiliation...so on and so forth. Gladiator said once they he could never beat Thor...Thor said he never experienced anyone as strong as Supes. Cyttorak has hella hyperbolic feats...as does Juggy.

Shuma in his few feats has some low showings...and saying he Dwarfs inconsistent as hell-lords who are written anywhere from top-tier to sky-father is meaningless as well

I don't really get your point here. I don't see the parallel between this and darkraiden's argument. I'm not saying that Shuma is stronger because he's conquered hundreds of universes. But even in that, it would be a valid argument in this case because unlike Galactus who has no desire to be a conqueror, Dormammu does want to do that. So Shuma conquering over 100 separate universes is a greater feat than Dormammu conquering several dimensions within the 616 universe.

Also, it's not logically sound to say Dormammu is stronger than Shuma because he has more on panel feats. Dormammu has popped up in the comics a lot more so of course he has more feats. But even then, it's not just the spoken things that are more impressive. Like someone said, Strange accidentally destroyed galaxies simply by channeling a portion of Shuma's power. Dormammu has been manifested in the proper 616 universe, and his presence has never been shown to be that dangerous.

 

[evoljeanyes]

Either way you slice it, no matter what, There is no evidence to say Shuma is over dormammu, @Theloniousmonk that would be like you using the argument @darkraiden used to denounce Galactus. Gal doesn't want to conquer universes. The same can be said for Dormammu when saying he is never been the thread that Shuma has. Dormammu has better on panel feats...Shuma's everything is basically from word of mouth...That's like believing Sentry is equal galactus, or Black bolt is the strongest character with earth affiliation...so on and so forth. Gladiator said once they he could never beat Thor...Thor said he never experienced anyone as strong as Supes. Cyttorak has hella hyperbolic feats...as does Juggy.

Shuma in his few feats has some low showings...and saying he Dwarfs inconsistent as hell-lords who are written anywhere from top-tier to sky-father is meaningless as well

I don't really get your point here. I don't see the parallel between this and darkraiden's argument. I'm not saying that Shuma is stronger because he's conquered hundreds of universes. But even in that, it would be a valid argument in this case because unlike Galactus who has no desire to be a conqueror, Dormammu does want to do that. So Shuma conquering over 100 separate universes is a greater feat than Dormammu conquering several dimensions within the 616 universe.

Also, it's not logically sound to say Dormammu is stronger than Shuma because he has more on panel feats. Dormammu has popped up in the comics a lot more so of course he has more feats. But even then, it's not just the spoken things that are more impressive. Like someone said, Strange accidentally destroyed galaxies simply by channeling a portion of Shuma's power. Dormammu has been manifested in the proper 616 universe, and his presence has never been shown to be that dangerous.

So we should make Shuma the exception because he is on panel less. Is anything Shuma has done above beating eternity though? If we're going by top feats. Dormammu wins. If we're going by consistency Dormammu wins. The only way Dormammu can logically be below Shuma is to go by his off panel feats. That seems like you're deciding to use the criteria that best serves your argument. Shuma's biggest off panel/word of mouth feat is he being sugnificantly stronger than Mephisto. Mephisto ain't shit out of his realm. In fact he lost yo panther out of his realm. That's not a large enough feat to determine he is over Dormammu. I am really just trying to understand, not dissing or anything