Reason Debates Final: Sociopath Tendencies wins

[jrod44]

Nas. Lost. Nas Lost.

I almost feel compelled to end right there. For some time now in the Reason, it has been chuckled that the mere notion of Nas winning anything is beyond belief.

Although the Nas lost campaign has waged for years, with or without justification on many issues. One of the more undeniable instances is when it comes to his battle with Jay Z. The tough part in this debate is whether we are just isolating this battle to solely the war of words within this time period, or using present day information to help in our cause. The only thing that changes is the margin of victory, because in all aspects Jigga is that dude.

The beef is rumored to have sparked due to each party not lacing their verses for a particular collaboration and the use of a sample.

Whatever caused the beef, or the beginnings, were completely unraveled in Jay’s diss during Summer Jam in the form of “The Takeover”. I can still remember hearing the Takeover the first time, with its guitar bassline, Jay made it known that Nas was not on his level. “Nas don’t want it with Hov”, Jay took the first shot, no subliminal, to make it known who he was talking about. You didn’t have to guess, you knew.

That’s one of things I respect the most out of this battle. Jay made it known who he had a problem with. If it was up to Nas, he would have kept beating around the bush, possibly making clever little lines but always pussy footin around the issue. If it was up to Nas, we might not have The Takeover, or Super Ugly. Jay swung the first punch and was always on the offense. If not Nas would have just kept quiet like a gump.

Face it. Smarten up Nas.

 

[jrod44]

Truth? Fake rhymes? So you’re saying Nas is victorious because of the truthfulness of his rhymes?

Should have picked a better platform.

The most Volatile, Vicious, Venomous, bit of truth in this battle was spewed from the mouth of Shawn Carter BKA Jay – Z. A line so hard it made you sour up like you just ate a lemon. So mean Mommy Hov “ made him apologize.

“Me and tha boy A.I. got more in Common than just ballin and rhymin

Get It?

More in Carmen

I came in ya Bentley backseat

Skeeted in ya Jeep

Left condoms in tha baby seat”

I mean I don’t know about you but that might hurt me, just a little bit.

All that other wordplay is all well and good but that little line just is a blow to the soul. Of course this wasn’t the only bit of knowledge that Jay gaves us in this exchange. The whole 2nd verse, just really goes at Nas the man very personally and in a way that wasn’t heard before. What made it more scathing was the apparent Truthfulness of the verse.

Here nigga

Tha gloves is off

The love is done

Its whateva, wheneva, howeva

Nigga "1"

And since you infatuated with sayin tha gay shit

Yes u was kissin my dick when u was kissin that bitch

Crazy bitch

You thought I was boning Ranette

You calling Carm' a hundred times I was boning her neck

You got a baby by that broad

You cant disown her yet

When does ya lies end?

When does the truth begin?

When does reality set it?

Or does it not matter

Gotta hurt that I'm ya baby mama's favorite rapper

And ask your current girl

She know whats up

Holla at a real nigga

[Nas Voice:]

I dont give a fuck

All I really know is that yo hoe wants to be with me

She aint playin

Believe what I'm sayin

Again it is its truthfulness that sets it apart from Nas’ Ether.

So it combines Jay’s exceptional wordplay with the pressure of being fact not fiction. Jay’s The Takeover is only rivaled by a short list of diss tracks and will forever live in infamy. The “death blow” may not have been administered as quickly as some would have thought but its obvious over the years, its effect is still felt.

So you can call people names and you can flip words and make it sound nice, but the Truth in the matter is………….

‘I’m your baby mommas favorite rapper”

As always, Nas lost this round too.

[video=youtube;OvBTHhEFeJo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvBTHhEFeJo[/video]

 

[jrod44]

So are you saying Jay’s disses were too personal? A little too close to home. You and Mom Carter think alike.

“Only thing we know about Superugly to be factual was Jay fuckin Carmen” – Sociopath Tendencies

Yeah I agree Soc, that’s about the only thing we can for sure say is true. That was part of my point of being truthful. I can’t really seeing dickin down your rivals baby mom as a “feminine trait” or an allusion to being a ”homo” like Nas would like to suggest.

I mean you have to use the ammo you have, and of course that was just the 2nd verse, the 1st verse is also pretty bad but again it’s the viciousness in that last verse that people remember. Its obvious Jay is just toying with Escobar at this point just setting him for the ugliness to come.

Kick yo little lies

I kick my real facts

Like u sneakin out tha back

At tha Source Soundlab(uh)

We wasnt chasin you

We had a tape and too

We came through to do our little one, two thang

It wasnt a rockafella come through thing

If it was on like that

Why would I come through Queens

Yo, ya'll Queens nigga know how I do

I got mo' shooters in Queens Bridge than u

Niggaz'll(niggaz will) tie you up on the Colloseum roof

And open beer bottles off ya boy's chipped tooth

Beginning with the Takeover to Super Ugly and ultimately with Blueprint 2, Jay’s lyrics and wordplay are second to none. On Blueprint 2 he calls out the naysayers saying he aint conscious yet he is the first to help in tragedy. He then goes on to call out Nas, correctly, on his contradictions of trying to portray some kind of prophet vibe, yet hits you back with the pop stuff, and then carries himself as if he is above that.

Cause the nigga wear a coofie, it don't mean that he bright

Cause you don't understand him, it don't mean that he nice

It just means you don't understand all the bullshit that he write

Is it "Oochie Wally Wally" or is it "One Mic"?

Is it "Black Girl Lost" or shorty owe you for ice?

Ultimately though, I feel that this battle cannot just be isolated to this time period, and this where we get into margin of victory. Jay has far and away taken off and been extremely successful after this battle. It seemed it was his jump off point to Super Stardom. He has since conquered Beyonce, a win of epic proportions, become an international icon respected for his gift of rhyme, as well as his business acumen. Nas has been mired in countless no win situations that seem to embody and personify this battle. You root for him and he puts a good fight on, but at the end of the day, a loss is not a win.

So I understand this whole underdog, he held his own thing that people get caught up in with Nas, because hey, Nas is good little dude and who wants him to lose? Just that he was just a bit out of his element because while he can spit, Jay proved what Nas spit don’t mean shit.

In summary, Jay had the most memorable line out of the battle, he brought the battle to the table, iniatiated the contact, and came out of the battle more successful than ever. Sounds like all the elements of a win to me.

Pierdo Nas

 

[therealist_]

We deserve another round .

This debate is epic .

 

[Blue Virgo]

Very nice last post from Socio.

 

[5th Letter]

Remember y'all both have 2 more rounds, its five for the finals.

 

[jrod44]

Internet has been messed up, I can post from phone but it I won't be the same, if I can't get it worked out soon I'll just post from phone.

 

[jrod44]

Two quick points before I go further.

1. Jay is a lyrical monster

2. Jay had by far the best line.

I make these points right off the bat just to dispel this notion that Nas was the superior lyricist. This is not Rakim vs. Soulja Boy. Jay Z is world reknown for his abilities on the mic, and is hardly someone that can be dismissed easily by any MC. Now you couple that talent and with the most vicious line, it’s a wrap.

Its not possible for Nas to say anything more lyrical than Jay just because the mere truth of what Jay was spitting.

The Takeover:

I know you missin all the - FAAAAAAAME!

But along with celebrity comes bout seventy shots to your frame

Nigga; you a - LAAAAAAAME!

Youse the fag model for Karl Kani/Esco ads

Went from, Nasty Nas to Esco's trash

Had a spark when you started but now you're just garbage

Fell from top ten to not mentioned at all

to your bodyguard's "Oochie Wally" verse better than yours

Matter fact you had the worst flow on the whole fuckin song

but I know - the sun don't shine, then son don't shine

That's why your - LAAAAAAAME! - career come to a end

There's only so long fake thugs can pretend

Nigga; you ain't live it you witnessed it from your folks pad

You scribbled in your notepad and created your life

I showed you your first tec on tour with Large Professor

(Me, that's who!) Then I heard your album bout your tec on the dresserSo yeah I sampled your voice, you was usin it wrong

You made it a hot line, I made it a hot songAnd you ain't get a coin nigga you was gettin fucked and

I know who I paid God, Serchlite Publishing

Use your - BRAAAAAAAIN! You said you been in this ten

I've been in it five - smarten up Nas

Four albums in ten years nigga? I can divide

That's one every let's say two, two of them shits was due

One was - NAHHH, the other was "Illmatic"

That's a one hot album every ten year average

And that's so - LAAAAAAAME! Nigga switch up your flow

Your shit is garbage, but you try and kick knowledge?

(Get the fuck outta here) You niggaz gon' learn to respect the king

Don't be the next contestant on that Summer Jam screen

Because you know who (who) did you know what (what)

with you know who (yeah) but just keep that between me and you for now

Read that right there that’s some real junk that Jigga is hitting you with. Not some cute shit like Nas, fuck being ugly, Jay said “you know who, did you know what, you know where, but just keep that between me and you”.

Nas says oh you do Taebo, Jays says “I showed you your first tec, then you came out with a tec on the dresser”.

Yeah Nas had some very so-so stuff but the reality is what Jay is spittin is a bit more tangible than some random ass critique of one’s looks or feelings. Maybe it’s personal because what Jay is saying is real personal shit. Jay went for the throat and while Nas may have something half way witty it just comes off a bit flat to me because it doesn’t match the intensity of what Jay is saying.

 

[jrod44]

sorry was gonna post then got into some other shit, might be back later on, sorry for draggin this shit out, dont laugh going to see diddy and dirty money at the marlins/braves game!

 

[jrod44]

This debate somewhat mirrors the rap battle. One of us is trying real hard and fighting valiantly but in reality there is nothing being said. Nothing but opinions and conjecture. Some would argue from both sides of this battle. For sure what we know is that Jay brought the beef to the forefront, ripped Nas apart lyrically and personally, and then went on to greater success. Is Ether a good song of course it is, is Nas a good artist, of course he is.

Jay should receive partial credit for Ether also, because if it wasn’t for Jay, Nas would have just kept quiet and none of this material would have ever blessed our ears. It truly was exciting, and to think that it may have never happened unless Jay stepped up. Jay was always on offense and took it straight to Nas knowing that any response and Jay was going to drop an Atom Bomb of Hiroshima, Nagasaki proportions on Nas. Just because Nas was able to shake off the fact he has Jay’s semen in his ride and call him Ugly does not make him the victor. I don’t know what world you live in but a witty line or two isn’t exactly a sufficient come back in mine.

As far as Jay looking up to Nas, well Nas should be respected as an established artist. We clap for his efforts as an MC, no one is disputing that. Especially given the fact, that Nas was successful earlier than Jay in rap, of course Jay would have some sort of reverence. Now upon feeling some disrespect and being in a position to do something about it Jay did what he had to do. He got his money right, then he wanted war.

Now I am not exactly following this whole Jay disrespecting the fans by saying he dumbed down his lyrics, and what exactly this has to do with Nas and this battle.

The undisputed Don of Doubles, the Sultan of Subliminals, doesn’t need to disrespect his fans to make a point. I think what he was saying as it pertains to Nas is that Nas thinks he dazzles you with some big words and with a supposed fancy vocab, but its nothing more than window dressing. Then you follow with some Oochie Wally stuff. Which is it Nas, back to Africa or back to the club?

And this notion of Jay still being affected by something Nas said a couple years later. Dude was busy going platinum and baggin Beyonce. Establishing 40/40 clubs, and ultimately becoming Nas’s boss or at least collaborator. Doesn’t sound like someone still dwelling on someone calling him Ugly.

As far as Hot 97, I can agree it can be used as an indicator somewhat, but you are talking about only people in a certain area, at a certain time, listening to a certain station, albeit one of the larger hip hop stations in the US. Who knows how Philly felt? Jersey? Detroit? Chicago? Maryland? VA? LA? Miami?, I could keep going but you get the point. All I can say is Jay afterwards lapped Nas in sales, so maybe the public did speak?

I conclude my Victorious debate with a little food for thought. What makes a winner? Is it the guy who threw the first punch? Is it the guy who landed blow after blow on his opponent? Is it the guy who landed the hardest punch? Is it the guy who just kept winning afterwards?

All I know that little scrappy guy is not the winner.

Sociopath Tendencies Lost.

[/IMG]

 

[jrod44]

just testing didnt come out before,so wanted to see if it comes out here.

 

[hrap-120]

Everybody knows Im a huge Nas fan, but you have to give credit were credit is due.

This isnt about who you agree with, the rules are who provided the better arguement

Jrod44 killed it with his last post

The undisputed Don of Doubles, the Sultan of Subliminals

The other guy just copied & pasted a Memphis Bleek interview in his final post, and posted a corny video...the video has zero credibility because according to Memphis Bleek and other Roc A Fella artists JayZ had already heard the song.

As far as Jay looking up to Nas, well Nas should be respected as an established artist. We clap for his efforts as an MC, no one is disputing that. Especially given the fact, that Nas was successful earlier than Jay in rap, of course Jay would have some sort of reverence. Now upon feeling some disrespect and being in a position to do something about it Jay did what he had to do. He got his money right, then he wanted war.

^^^^This is classic Art of War and perfectly articulated, a point made without the use of Gif's or videos.

I conclude my Victorious debate with a little food for thought. What makes a winner? Is it the guy who threw the first punch? Is it the guy who landed blow after blow on his opponent? Is it the guy who landed the hardest punch? Is it the guy who just kept winning afterwards?

All I know that little scrappy guy is not the winner.

Sociopath Tendencies Lost.

Alrighty then........I guess the winner is jrod44 by a landslide

Ayo Jamaica, you need to make sure that no aliases vote, and make sure you count the votes before you declare a winner, dont allow any interference from e-gangs or anonymous-avatars, Judge wise and dont let people cheat jrod44 out of a victory.

 

[Blue Virgo]

Lol @ your biased vote.

 

[hrap-120]

Lol @ your biased vote.

I already admitted Im a huge Nas fan, Im normally biased towards Nas on everything but the rules say its not about who you agree with.
Its about who provided the better argument.

You act like a bunch of Donkey posters are going to come in here and save their friend on a popularity contest.....
..this is a debate not a friend-fest.

Im curios to know why you didnt vote???

 

[Blue Virgo]

Never voted in any of the others, so I see no need to start now.

The most I do is drop a comment or two.
Maybe I should change that....

 

[5th Letter]

This is making me change the way I do voting going forward. I notice people voting for the posters they like while using valid points to mask their bias.

 

[KillaCham]

Its a little late for that, were where you when the other Reason Mod voted for his e-gang buddy after he had obvious documented beef with the other poster that was in the the debate??

Do you even add the votes and post them in the thread before you declare a winner??

The victory usually goes to the person with the most e-affiliations instead of who gave the best argument.

Its not who you agree with its who gives the best argument...how many people realize that??

LOL don't even start that crybaby shit. I didn't have valid points masking anything. I had an entire point of view backed up by my own knowledge and factual findings that, if I may add, shitted all over yours. So much that if my posts were used against your "argument" in the debate, you probably would've lost even worse. Shall I refresh thy memory? So again, let's not go there.

If you have anymore complains about past debates - you need to take it up with Jamacia in PMs and not ruin this for everybody.

 

[5th Letter]

aight lets leave the beefing out this thread.

 

[Blue Virgo]

I just couldnt help notice that people try to get their e-buddies from specific forums to vote for them like you just did in the Donkey.

Why would you go to a sub-forum were a certain poster has alliances and ask them to vote?? Why not do it here where its meant to be?? In HIPHOP DISCUSSION FORUM.

Stop being bias over alliance and read the debate. Its obvious that JROD gave the better arguement.

Its not who you agree with its who gave the better argument.

Lol, you silly.

I did that for my own entertainment--like most things I do.
It's funny that you laced your own post with " Ayo Jamaica, you need to make sure that no aliases vote, and make sure you count the votes before you declare a winner, dont allow any interference from e-gangs or anonymous-avatars, Judge wise and dont let people cheat jrod44 out of a victory." because you're scared the person you're "beefing" with is gonna win the debate.

Also, if other posters from different forums weren't supposed to come in here and vote...why would Jamacia have the link for the debates in his sig?!
He posts ALL OVER the board...that's advertisement as well.
=~)*

 

[KillaCham]

Locking this until certain people's feelings heal.