The Lonious Monk
New member
AZTG;c-9968942 said:
I didn't give Nas a 5 in Impact because I don't believe he has had the kinda long term industry changing impact that some other big named rappers have had. I didn't not give Nas a 5 specifically because I wanted him to be lower than Jay. That's what people are suggesting here. You should be able to evaluate each character based on what the rapper brings or doesn't bring.
People have come to a consensus on the Catalog, so I'll lower that to 2.
Not all 5s are considered equal, but all 5s are at the top of the mountain as far as rappers in general. I might think Nas is a better lyricist than Jay, but Jay is still a 5. If you believe that Eminem is lesser in one of those categories to the point where he shouldn't even be considered a 5, that's fine, make the argument.
I'm not weighting categories different. Every area I gave Eminem a 5 in is a category where I believe he's among the best ever. Again, it's ok for anyone to disagree, but people have to provide arguments against Eminem's merits not just says he doesn't deserve to be as high as Jay because that's a purely subjective stance.
The Lonious Monk
New member
GetoBoy;c-9968972 said:
It's ok for people to compare scores for discussion purposes, but you shouldn't need to compare the rappers to generate the scores. For example, for Catalog. You don't have to compare Eminem's catalog to Nas' to come up with a score. You can just listen to Eminem's catalog and decide what it deserves.
Last edited:
The Lonious Monk;c-9968859 said:
My nigga look at my break down I did all that that's what I'm saying I didn't JUST say his score can't be higher becuz of another rapper I gave break downs on why his scores should be lower or why I didn't make them higher.... Again ppl aren't hating you just did a vast overrating of him which is funny becuz when ppl rate another rapper higher then you then they overrating or rating as a stan but now you vastly overrated a rapper and ppl who rate lower than you are hating this is the problem I had with the one person control the ratings set up from jump which again glad you changed that becuz this rating is ridiculous compared to how you rated others it's like you were easier on Em
The Lonious Monk
New member
GetoBoy;c-9968978 said:
I'm not talking about your breakdowns or scoring. I said those were perfectly fine. I'm talking about your comments that I can't objectively give Em a higher score than Jay. I don't think I was easy on Eminem. There were a couple places I probably could have knocked him more, but didn't (e.g. Catalog), but that same goes for everyone I've done so far. At the end of the day, I scored him the same way I scored everyone. You're just hung up on this because you're biased against him in favor of others. Your statements are proof of that. So you can't question my objectivity while making grossly subjective statements yourself.
And for the record, I don't have a dog in this race yet. I have albums from Nas, Biggie, Jay, and Pac. I made a lil mixtape with the songs I like from Em. That said, none of them are even close to being my favorite rapper, so I don't have nearly the bias that most of you do. So even if I couldn't be objective like some of you can't, that wouldn't have come into play yet cause I honestly don't care how these 5 are perceived to measure up.
konceptjones;c-9968562 said:
If Rakim say the man is nice with it, he's nice with it.[/quote]
The problem is that interview was from the early 00s when Em was at his pinnacle. In hindsight, he was good at wordplay, similes, metaphors, double entendres, alliteration and slick talk but what good is it if he's rapping in a nasal delivery over a weak beat?
Even if we accept your, or Rakim's, premise that Eminem is a dope MC he doesn't make the type of music that real Hip Hoppers feel. We'd rather listen to Gang Starr.
Anyway, here's my ratings
Lyrics - 4 - Eminem is nice with the wordplay. Or he used to be, I haven't really listened to his new stuff. The reason I don't give him a higher rating is because a lot of times he's just making multis out of words that have nothing to do with each other. I guess Pun and Canibus were the same way. I can think of a lot f rappers that rely less on the use of multis that I'd rather listen to.
Delivery - 2.5 - I absolutely hate the nasal voice he used at the beginning of his career. Then he switched from the nasal voice to yelling.
Language - 4- I guess this has to do with lyrics. He's not as creative with the slang as, say, Ghostface but he has some slick lines.
Catalog - 2 - In all honesty I've never been an Eminem fan so I can't give you a breakdown of each album, but even when he was at his pinnacle from 99-03 I didn't listen to him because I didn't like his music. Not necessarily the beats and rhymes, but the way it all came together.
Storytelling - 4 - Honestly besides Stan and Guilty Conscious I can't think of any stories he's told. But those two songs were good enough to warrant a 4 rating imo.
Creativity - 4 - One song I really liked was Sing For The Moment. He was rapping about what it was like to be White and into Hip Hop. There have been many White rappers up to the point that Eminem got put on but they didn't rap about being white, or they tried to avoid the topic, or say that race doesn't matter which it obviously does. If you're a White rapper and you say race doesn't matter you're not fooling anybody.
Subject Matter - 3.5 - He had a few songs I thought were dope like Stan, Sing For The Moment, Guilty Conscience, White America, Cleaning Out My Closet. He certainly knows how to stay on topic. People say that he raps about killing his wife and mother but honestly I don't know because I haven't listened to every album.
Collaboration - 0 - Dr Dre discovered him and signed him and he can't put a classic together
Impact - 5 - He's the highest selling rapper of all time. Everybody knows who he is. I can't front on that.
Total Score 29
The Lonious Monk
New member
5 Grand;c-9969000 said:
The problem is that interview was from the early 00s when Em was at his pinnacle. In hindsight, he was good at wordplay, similes, metaphors, double entendres, alliteration and slick talk but what good is it if he's rapping in a nasal delivery over a weak beat?
Even if we accept your, or Rakim's, premise that Eminem is a dope MC he doesn't make the type of music that real Hip Hoppers feel. We'd rather listen to Gang Starr.
Anyway, here's my ratings
Lyrics - 4 - Eminem is nice with the wordplay. Or he used to be, I haven't really listened to his new stuff. The reason I don't give him a higher rating is because a lot of times he's just making multis out of words that have nothing to do with each other. I guess Pun and Canibus were the same way. I can think of a lot f rappers that rely less on the use of multis that I'd rather listen to.
Delivery - 2.5 - I absolutely hate the nasal voice he used at the beginning of his career. Then he switched from the nasal voice to yelling.
Language - 4- I guess this has to do with lyrics. He's not as creative with the slang as, say, Ghostface but he has some slick lines.
Catalog - 2 - In all honesty I've never been an Eminem fan so I can't give you a breakdown of each album, but even when he was at his pinnacle from 99-03 I didn't listen to him because I didn't like his music. Not necessarily the beats and rhymes, but the way it all came together.
Storytelling - 4 - Honestly besides Stan and Guilty Conscious I can't think of any stories he's told. But those two songs were good enough to warrant a 4 rating imo.
Creativity - 4 - One song I really liked was Sing For The Moment. He was rapping about what it was like to be White and into Hip Hop. There have been many White rappers up to the point that Eminem got put on but they didn't rap about being white, or they tried to avoid the topic, or say that race doesn't matter which it obviously does. If you're a White rapper and you say race doesn't matter you're not fooling anybody.
Subject Matter - 3.5 - He had a few songs I thought were dope like Stan, Sing For The Moment, Guilty Conscience, White America, Cleaning Out My Closet. He certainly knows how to stay on topic. People say that he raps about killing his wife and mother but honestly I don't know because I haven't listened to every album.
Collaboration - 0 - Dr Dre discovered him and signed him and he can't put a classic together
Impact - 5 - He's the highest selling rapper of all time. Everybody knows who he is. I can't front on that.
Total Score 29[/quote]
Alright, so I'm a little torn about the Delivery score because I agree with you about his voice. I wouldn't knock it more than .5 or 1 for that because he changes his voice depending on the song and sometimes within a song. The only thing that keeps me from doing that though is that it's purely subjective reasoning. You're knocking him because you don't personally like the voice. If everybody else is cool with his voice, that's not really a good reason to knock him. However, if most of the people in here agree that his voice detracts from his delivery, I'll lower that score.
I don't really understand you Collaboration score or reasoning. Collaboration is just about how often the rapper works with other high level rappers and how well they measure up beside those rappers when collaborating. You can't possibly think that Em is a 0 in that regard. The fact that many feel he merked Jay alone is enough for his score to not be that absurdly low.
Breezy_Kilroy
New member
Em delivery has gone to shit. It was good on SSLP but his voice was annoying
Between MMLP, TES and even Relapse (minus the accents) his delivery and flow was impeccable.
Right around Recovery and Bad Meets Evil you could tell it was gradually getting worse.
On MMLP2 it was like he completely forgot how to rap. That whisper shit he be doing, trying to cram every word into a bar and then how he gets gradually louder and starts screaming at the end of a scheme, shit is trash.
Listening to Em rap today is hard. He even sounds bad a cappella
Between MMLP, TES and even Relapse (minus the accents) his delivery and flow was impeccable.
Right around Recovery and Bad Meets Evil you could tell it was gradually getting worse.
On MMLP2 it was like he completely forgot how to rap. That whisper shit he be doing, trying to cram every word into a bar and then how he gets gradually louder and starts screaming at the end of a scheme, shit is trash.
Listening to Em rap today is hard. He even sounds bad a cappella
The Lonious Monk;c-9968985 said:
Aight man I'm not gonna go back and forth over something everybody with ears can see you clearly wrong about that's why I said this should be a avg thing and I'm glad it is it's just funny that when you underrated a rapper and ppl don't agree it's becuz they are stans or aren't objective but when you overate a rapper and ppl don't agree they are haters and not objective basically nobody you don't agree with is objective besides you that statement shows you the bias one becuz that basically says you dismissing what doesn't align with your views as stan, hater, bias, subjective etc... No bruh objectively speaking you wrong and overrated him vastly and it's not a bias towards or for anybody thing it's just a fact thing you keep tryna hide behind nobody is being objective but you cop out is a weak attempt to hide the fact that sum of these ratings you making seem bias as hell and this is one of them sorry that's just the truth
The Lonious Monk
New member
Breezy_Kilroy;c-9969027 said:
So see, now that raises the question on what we prioritize. Are we giving more weight to where a rapper is now or more consideration over their total body of work. Let's say I agree with you that his delivery now is trash, does that invalidate the fact that at one time it was impeccable. Should we be rating the artists according to them at their best or kinda like an average. Damn, maybe I should have had a Consistency category.
The Lonious Monk
New member
GetoBoy;c-9969029 said:
You're a really dense dude. Seriously.
I've very rarely even got into claiming someone overrated or underrated. Your score is your score and that's it. I've called people Stans for the reasons they gave for certain scores not the scores themselves. If someone comes into a topic and gives all 5s because "Rapper A is the bestest in the world," I may call that person a Stan because that's a stannish thing to say. I've called some of the people in here haters. It's not because they scored lower than me. I actually think this topic has been the most well done by you guys as far as posting scores and reasonable explanations. So I'm fully willing to admit that I'm overrating Eminem. All I ask is that if people think I'm overrating him, they provide an argument for where my scores are too high. Instead, ya'll come in here with some "Eminem shouldn't be higher than Jay" shit. That's just hating. It's not an objective argument.
And again, you're accusing me of being biased which is stupid. I don't even like Eminem like that. I'm not a Jay fan, but I actually own Jay albums. I don't own anything from Em. I knocked all the other scores out in like half an hour because I actually listen to all of them enough to have insight on them. It took me days to do this topic because I had to really listen to his music again just so that I could attempt to actually be objective.
The Lonious Monk;c-9969012 said:
I really don't care what everybody else likes. I'm telling you that I think his voice is annoying and that's why I voted the way I did. Asking people to vote "objectively" doesn't work because who's to say if somebody voted objectively or subjectively? And what makes that person's opinion more valid than the person that voted?
Wrong.
Collaboration doesn't mean, "how often the rapper works with other high level rappers and how well they measure up beside those rappers when collaborating".
Collaboration also means: how often the rapper works with high level PRODUCERS and how well they measure up besides those PRODUCERS when collaborating.
Dr Dre produced Easy E, NWA, D.O.C. and Snoop. Also The Chronic 1 and 2. And GRODT.
Now go back and listen to the work that Eminem did with Dr Dre and ask yourself if Eminem's collaborations are on the same level as Eazy E, NWA, D.O.C., Snoop The Chronic 1 and 2 and GRODT. Thats where the bar is.
If you had to get all the albums that Dr Dre produced and throw one of them in the trash which one would it be?
Last edited:
I don't understand how you can't compare to other rappers? When you give a rapper a score of 5 out of 5 what are you basing it off of? Everything is relative
If Jay-Z said "she like my necklace, started relaxing that's what I call a chain reaction then for Jay-Z I'd give that line like a 3.5 or 4
If wakka flocka said it that would be a 6 out of 5 cuz I think he sucks compared to other rappers
The only way you can't compare anyone is if there is absolutely no one to compare to
If ppl give Eminem a 2.5 or 3 in any categories then it's cuz they are comparing him to the elite in hip hop and that's where he ranks among them you can't just rate someone in a vacuum it doesn't work like that
If Jay-Z said "she like my necklace, started relaxing that's what I call a chain reaction then for Jay-Z I'd give that line like a 3.5 or 4
If wakka flocka said it that would be a 6 out of 5 cuz I think he sucks compared to other rappers
The only way you can't compare anyone is if there is absolutely no one to compare to
If ppl give Eminem a 2.5 or 3 in any categories then it's cuz they are comparing him to the elite in hip hop and that's where he ranks among them you can't just rate someone in a vacuum it doesn't work like that
The Lonious Monk
New member
5 Grand;c-9969046 said:
Ok, if you have no desire to even answer by the rules, then you shouldn't be mad if I disregard your input. The whole point of the adjusted score is that changes are only made when someone provides an argument. That's how I know if people are being objective. If someone says "Rapper A should have a lower Language score because he rarely ever uses interesting wordplay or any other wording tricks" that's a lot more objective than "Rapper A should have a lower Delivery score because I don't like his voice." The latter example is purely subjective. Again, we're all human, so opinion is going to come into place for all of these, but there is a difference between an opinion that is built on a foundation of facts and opinion that is based on nothing but personal tastes. Either is fine for discussion, but your scoring is supposed to be more along the lines of the first.
Also, I'm not really sure why you feel you can just come into this topic and make up your own definition of a category. I post the rules with every thread. You can clearly see what Collaboration means as it pertains to these topics and it's clearly about other rappers not producers. How do you even assess how a rapper measures up to a producer? They play two different roles in the process. There is no comparison there. However, you can compare two different rappers when they are given the same beat and concept and are essentially rapping with each other.
GetoBoy;c-9968655 said:
@"The Lonious Monk" bruh do you read or just pick out what you want to I literally gave reasons for everything and why I thought they weren't higher and none of them had to do with another rapper you just tryna ignore it to make it seem like ppl aren't being objective when all ppl are saying is there is absolutely no possible way an objective person can look at those categories and give the other rappers the low scores they got then give Em his scores he got somewhere in there it becomes bias either for a rapper or against a rapper and Jay is the best example becuz nigga you gave him a 34 and Em a 38 you telling me the difference between Em and Jay in those categories objectively speaking is that great???? Fool knock it off I call complete bullshit
The Lonious Monk
New member
L3NU;c-9969059 said:
I don't really understand you reasoning, but to explain how this goes you should be considering each category solely on the merits of the rapper.
Of course that means you have to compare the rapper to the field, but not so much to other individual rappers.
Take Storytelling for instance. Why do you need to compare a rapper to anyone else to determine whether they are able to deliver strong, varied, and creative narratives? You can really answer that without thinking about any other rappers at all. Now when scoring, you'll probably need to measure that rapper against your perception of what the standard is for good rappers. For instance, I might give Ghostface a 5 because to me he is one of if not the best storyteller ever in HipHop. That's fair. But my thought process shouldn't be, I give Ghost a 5 because such and such got a 4 and Ghost is way better than him.
The Lonious Monk
New member
GetoBoy;c-9969063 said:
I think you don't read. I've said twice now that I have no problem with your scores or the justifications for your scores. They are perfectly fine. This is the third time I've said this. Hopefully the third time is the charm.
I was specifically talking about this statement:
and other statements where you basically said I wasn't being objective because I rated Em higher. Those are subjective statements. You like the other rappers better than Em and criticizing my score based solely on your opinion that they are better. I've said several times, if you think I'm overrating Em, pick the categories you want to contest and provide an argument. For example, you could have just said, you believe my Delivery score is too high because his voices tend to detract from the overall delivery sometimes and many people can't get into that. That's fair, other people seem to agree with, I'd probably knock it down. However, instead of doing that, you keep on harping this false idea that I have to believe Jay should be higher than Em or I'm not being objective. Again, that is purely your opinion and nothing more. There are no facts behind that at all, which is why I'm dismissing it. For the last time, if you think I'm overrating Em, cool. The whole point of these topics is to correct my initial score, so show me where I went wrong. However, if your major beef stems from the fact that he has a higher starting score than your favorite has, then there is no point arguing that because that's not what these threads are about.
The Lonious Monk;c-9969076 said:
You all over the place.... You saying I don't got a problem with your score but you then saying I only got a problem with your score becuz of another rapper score how is that the case when I scored him differently based on his own work??? I got a problem with his scored becuz it's greatly overrated period not just compared to Jay and you like to pick and choose when overrating is objective or bias or you keep harping on Jay it's overrated compared to Jay Pac or Big for that matter it's just overrated and I gave reasons as to why but you keep talking about Jay..... Jay was just brought up becuz we've all heard both and to say objectively Jay is 34 in these categories and Em is 38 is idiotic
Last edited:
Members online
No members online now.