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Hyde Parke
New member
ive said this many x before..at the end of the day, it is a belief. atheist believe their is no God, regardless of what pieces of logic and handed down knowledge they pick up along the way, and those that believe use spiritual experience and also handed down knowledge, the tie that binds and separates the two at the same time, is belief. really am not interested in debating about it, the outcome is always the same, just my 2cents.
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I AM BECAUSE HE IS...
When you ask the question "How is it possible that anything exists at all?", you are left with the conclusion that it must have been done by design. This design must therefore has a designer, hence GOD must be a reality. However the problem is what or who you concieve him to be, if you were raised on the teaching of the bible (or Koran), then you will have a close interpretation of 98% of the people who post on this forum..if you were never exposed to this teaching then your concept will be something totally different.
Why wasn't the universe forever just a big black nothingness?" "Where did God come from?" "If there is no God then how did the universe get here?" "If we come up with a scientific theory that says that it all came from a 'big bang', then where did all the stuff come from to be able to 'bang'?"
The fact that anything exists at all anywhere in any way, shape or form is the ultimate cosmological, ontological mystery. It is the great unknown. It is the fundamental rubric of all human thought.
the controversies exist because different people claim to "know" GOD and tries to dictate to us, their interpretation of what he expects us to do with our time here on earth, hence, the different religion, prophets and conflicting stories in the bible.
When you ask the question "How is it possible that anything exists at all?", you are left with the conclusion that it must have been done by design. This design must therefore has a designer, hence GOD must be a reality. However the problem is what or who you concieve him to be, if you were raised on the teaching of the bible (or Koran), then you will have a close interpretation of 98% of the people who post on this forum..if you were never exposed to this teaching then your concept will be something totally different.
Why wasn't the universe forever just a big black nothingness?" "Where did God come from?" "If there is no God then how did the universe get here?" "If we come up with a scientific theory that says that it all came from a 'big bang', then where did all the stuff come from to be able to 'bang'?"
The fact that anything exists at all anywhere in any way, shape or form is the ultimate cosmological, ontological mystery. It is the great unknown. It is the fundamental rubric of all human thought.
the controversies exist because different people claim to "know" GOD and tries to dictate to us, their interpretation of what he expects us to do with our time here on earth, hence, the different religion, prophets and conflicting stories in the bible.
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alissowack
New member
Well, what would make it so that "logic" best explains God? To say that our intelligence is the determining factor in whether God exists says that we are the final say...not considering the unknowns.
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BiblicalAtheist
New member
alissowack;1695866 said:Well, what would make it so that "logic" best explains God? To say that our intelligence is the determining factor in whether God exists says that we are the final say...not considering the unknowns.
Do you mean to say it was our logic that came up with the idea that god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipresent?
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toktaylor;1695748 said:I AM BECAUSE HE IS...
When you ask the question "How is it possible that anything exists at all?", you are left with the conclusion that it must have been done by design. This design must therefore has a designer, hence GOD must be a reality. However the problem is what or who you concieve him to be, if you were raised on the teaching of the bible (or Koran), then you will have a close interpretation of 98% of the people who post on this forum..if you were never exposed to this teaching then your concept will be something totally different.
Why wasn't the universe forever just a big black nothingness?" "Where did God come from?" "If there is no God then how did the universe get here?" "If we come up with a scientific theory that says that it all came from a 'big bang', then where did all the stuff come from to be able to 'bang'?"
The fact that anything exists at all anywhere in any way, shape or form is the ultimate cosmological, ontological mystery. It is the great unknown. It is the fundamental rubric of all human thought.
the controversies exist because different people claim to "know" GOD and tries to dictate to us, their interpretation of what he expects us to do with our time here on earth, hence, the different religion, prophets and conflicting stories in the bible.
When presented with this idea I am often struck with the simple question, "How can nothing exist?" How could there be no reality? Certainly our version of reality does not need to exist but some version certainly does. The fact that the reality that exists includes us does not lead us to a designer. If reality must be then it needs nothing else to explain its existence.
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KTULU IS BACK
New member
holy shit, whar67 made a thread?
baller
baller
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KTULU IS BACK
New member
i just wanna say this guy's a really smart guy who plays it cool and i enjoy when he posts
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alissowack;1695866 said:Well, what would make it so that "logic" best explains God? To say that our intelligence is the determining factor in whether God exists says that we are the final say...not considering the unknowns.
God exists or does not exists regardless our logic or intelligence. However traits we assign to God do allow us to assess the chance the a God with those traits is feasible. Based on the traits I have defined a personal god is too paradoxical to exist. Some other types of God could still exist but it would not possess these traits.
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alissowack
New member
BiblicalAtheist;1695920 said:Do you mean to say it was our logic that came up with the idea that god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipresent?
That is the argument that our logic created God. But if God exists, He does regardless of our logic.
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alissowack
New member
whar67;1696252 said:God exists or does not exists regardless our logic or intelligence. However traits we assign to God do allow us to assess the chance the a God with those traits is feasible. Based on the traits I have defined a personal god is too paradoxical to exist. Some other types of God could still exist but it would not possess these traits.
But would it be right to say that we know what these paradoxical traits mean in respect to God...or that we can dismiss these possibilities just because it is illogical to us? Our notion of God being eternal should at least hint at God not being bound by the things that hold us down.
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BiblicalAtheist
New member
alissowack;1697119 said:But would it be right to say that we know what these paradoxical traits mean in respect to God...or that we can dismiss these possibilities just because it is illogical to us? Our notion of God being eternal should at least hint at God not being bound by the things that hold us down.
What do you mean though? We define the meaning of everything. Only humans think there is a creator, we only do this because we THINK we can think. And the only reason we think this is because we think we have this ability to think. Most all of us agree that humans can think and so we devised a set of 'rules' that constitute what 'thinking' is and how it should operate. If someone doesn't follow the rules they are said to not be 'thinking right'. We think of and define even what it means to be a 'thinking' being. "God" is whatever humans think god is, whether it exists or not, just like everything else in this universe.
We define the paradoxical traits, and so we can't turn around and say 'well maybe we just don't understand what we defined'....
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whar67;1695303 said:As most people on this board know I am one of the godless atheists that lurk about here. I tend to chime in to point out the holes in ,logic of other people arguments, or at least what I perceive to be holes, without really laying out my own logic for positions I hold. So I thought I would share the central reason why I am an atheist and let folks poke at it.
The personal God of the Bible (or any other religion) is a paradox. He is generally presented with these traits...
1. All-Powerful (Omnipotent)
2. All-Knowing (Omniscient)
3. All-Loving (Omnibenevolent)
The problem is when we look at reality these traits make God an impossible being. Take childhood leukemia it effects 3,500 children in the US annually (you need to add a zero to get to the world-wide cases). Survival rates are very good for most type of pediatric cancer but several hundred children die every year from these diseases. Now God knows this will happen (trait 2), loves the child it will happen too (trait 3), and can trivially stop the deaths from happening (trait 1). I have head several arguments to explain this.
1. God has a plan.
In the case of a dead child God's plan has resulted in the tremendous pain to the parent. This violates trait 3 of God. Further since trait 1 exists God can achieve any plan without causing pain and suffering.
2. People must be tested.
This violates trait 2. If God is all-knowing he already knows the outcome of any test he chooses to run. This is a central paradox to the Book of Job for instance. Why does God NOT know what Job will do when he is tested? Why does he enter into the test proposed by Satan? If it is to educate Job he can accomplish that through means that does not effect Job (trait 1). If it is educate the devil the same rules apply. God can achieve any lesson without inflicting pain (trait 1). To inflict pain that is not needed violates trait 3.
3. God acts in mysterious ways
This is an acknowledgment of the paradox but ducks an explanation. The problem I have is to believe I have to resolve these paradoxes. When I examine the world and the events in them all my observation make sense without a personal God. When I add a personal God, with the traits I have listed, I see paradoxes. Occam's razor leads me to the simple conclusion a personal God does not exist.
This is the foundation of my atheism.
Good post.
Also, when Abraham goes to kill Isaac God stops Abraham and says, "I NOW know you fear me". He only NOW knew, at that exact moment in time. Another was when Sodom and Gomorrah had those outcries, God said he personally had to 'go down' and see if it was to the extent he was hearing.
Just two examples, and there's more. BUT many idiots love to call it "Anthropomorphism". Just the next best excuse I guess...
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alissowack
New member
BiblicalAtheist;1697181 said:What do you mean though? We define the meaning of everything. Only humans think there is a creator, we only do this because we THINK we can think. And the only reason we think this is because we think we have this ability to think. Most all of us agree that humans can think and so we devised a set of 'rules' that constitute what 'thinking' is and how it should operate. If someone doesn't follow the rules they are said to not be 'thinking right'. We think of and define even what it means to be a 'thinking' being. "God" is whatever humans think god is, whether it exists or not, just like everything else in this universe.
We define the paradoxical traits, and so we can't turn around and say 'well maybe we just don't understand what we defined'....
For some people, if they can think, then they feel they have the right to determine in any and every circumstance what should or shouldn't be...even if they think God does or does not exist. If God exists, then God exists apart from what we think or believe.
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alissowack;1697119 said:But would it be right to say that we know what these paradoxical traits mean in respect to God...or that we can dismiss these possibilities just because it is illogical to us? Our notion of God being eternal should at least hint at God not being bound by the things that hold us down.
I am outlining a definition of God then rejecting that definition. God is certainly not bound by my opinion. The definition I use is the typical one presented to explain God by most western religions. The first step I took on my road to atheism was to realize all religion were false and the definition they provided of God was false, at least the ones that I encounter growing up.
Your last comment is a version of the "God acts in mysterious ways" argument. It is presented as "God is mysterious". However if God is not bound by our rules (the physical laws of the universe) then he is able to do the impossible. Anything that can do something impossible is itself impossible. I believe the "mystery" is simply an expression of the cognitive dissonance that occurs when holding the two opposite thoughts of a being that exists but is impossible too exist. If instead God is bound by the physical laws of the universe but just understands them better than we do he losses his All-Powerful and All-Knowing status and at least becomes possible.
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alissowack
New member
whar67;1698835 said:I am outlining a definition of God then rejecting that definition. God is certainly not bound by my opinion. The definition I use is the typical one presented to explain God by most western religions. The first step I took on my road to atheism was to realize all religion were false and the definition they provided of God was false, at least the ones that I encounter growing up.
Your last comment is a version of the "God acts in mysterious ways" argument. It is presented as "God is mysterious". However if God is not bound by our rules (the physical laws of the universe) then he is able to do the impossible. Anything that can do something impossible is itself impossible. I believe the "mystery" is simply an expression of the cognitive dissonance that occurs when holding the two opposite thoughts of a being that exists but is impossible too exist. If instead God is bound by the physical laws of the universe but just understands them better than we do he losses his All-Powerful and All-Knowing status and at least becomes possible.
But, is God's "unbound-ness" just limited to some form of measurement? I could be wrong, but I believe when the Bible suggests of God's Power, Presence, and Knowledge...it is authoritative as well. His Power, Presence, and Knowledge is "Lord" over all; that His Traits dictate what power, presence, and knowledge should or shouldn't do.
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