JR on lack of heels in wrestling. Agree or disagree?

[cobbland]

The last character (IMO) who got legitimate heel heat was Muhammad Hassan.

UPN fucked that up.

 

[Sour-Cream]

which is why HHH Brock Lesnar and Paul Heyman are the best heels in the game right now

 

[Idiopathic Joker]

Edge and Randy Orton were the last real legitimate heels

 

[5th Letter]

The WWE likes it's faces to rarely look vulnerable. The heels do cheat the babyface's always overcome the cheating and win. IE last Mondays Cena vs Wyatt's match.

 

[Peezy_Jenkins]

Edge and Randy Orton were the last real legitimate heels

CM Punk with paul heyman

 

[Idiopathic Joker]

Edge and Randy Orton were the last real legitimate heels

CM Punk with paul heyman

Punk was never truly hated. Fans really really hated the fuck out of edge and Orton.

 

[Broddie]

I don't agree with cheering a heel. The heel is out there to get booed it is his job. I think it's kinda disrespectful sometimes. I grew up liking a lot of heels but of course if I was ever at a live event I booed them. That's what they want.

It's why I was like "???" when people were getting mad at Magnus for being a dirty paper champion. lol that's what he was supposed to do. Where they dropped the ball with that is not having Joe go over him in the end for the world title.

Cheering heels happens. It's pretty much unavoidable even if they are great at their job. I don't think people should do it as a habit though, that's kind of how it is today...especially with the IWC screaming that everybody should be a heel.

As far as Magnus goes I think here is where we should discuss the evolution of being a heel. Cheating, run-ins sure 30 years ago that booking would have been fine, if not expected.

But since the turn of the century the game has changed, people don't want to pay to see a match with a crappy finish, it's very different from then. The knowledge of the business by the fans, their expectations and the amount of wrestling on TV are all much higher.

This is where I disagree with JR, he was talking about (on his podcast with Jake) about 30 years ago Flair would wrestle local guys to 60 minute draws... that's not gonna fly today. 20 years ago in the AE there used to be 15 run-ins In a match, that won't fly today either.

The fans want finishes not DQs, draws or 1,000 run-ins. The mentality of the crowd is different. People no longer think "Damn, [good guy] will get him next time" they think "man...a DQ/run-in? Fuck this shit they wasted my money".

You have to evolve. HHH was ahead of the curve in that regard because people hated him because he always won, sometimes he cheated or there were run-ins (key: sometimes) but there were times where he just plain won the match.

Getting beat is good for the face and it gets fans behind him even more which is the goal.

HHH was one of the lowest drawing champs during the early 00's because he went over cleanly too much. Peep the numbers. He was up there with his pals HBK and Nash at some point. Being a good heel is about psychological and emotional resonance. Doesn't matter if the match has a crappy finish or not. That's what keeps people drawn in. Seeing a heel go over clean so much and just play dirty sometimes could be counter productive for that reason.

I think you overestimate this so called "evolution" because the more things change the more they stay the same. Just like how people were willing to stab Ole Anderson or climb over the cage to tear him down during the "Turn of 1980" fans today react with the same passion when a good heel connects with them on a visceral level. I could think of 2 recent examples.

I've only been watching modern WWE for 2 years. So I completely missed Randy Orton's career. I know nothing of it before 2012. What I saw in 2012 and early 2013 was a very bland character and I didn't get why this guy had so many vocal fans. Until he became heel champ.

When he became heel champ he was so sleazy and petty that I kept watching over and over no matter how lame the booking got just to see if Bryan or somebody will finally put this guy in his place. So did many others. This is why despite the vocal "outrage" people had last fall they kept tuning in to every Raw and every PPV. The fact that they had him parading around with 2 belts and he used that to generate more heat with his overconfident mannerisms despite being a spoiled chicken shit and not a fighting champ made him even more dislikeable. I'd wager that if it wasn't for booking Orton that way on top of HHH adding more fuel to that fire Bryan's triumph would not have resonated the same way it did in the end. That's the makings of being a good heel.

Another example is Bully Ray after Lockdown 2013. People felt betrayed by that swerve and he made it his business to rub it in peoples faces for months to come. On top of that he was always using shady tactics to remain on top and that got the fans livid. To the point that they were begging for the story to end because they couldn't stand seeing him in that role anymore and wanted AJ Styles to finally take him out. Suffice it to say that was not only the last time the TNA world title meant something but it was the last time the champion was drawing crowds in that company based on the fact that people wanted to see Bully finally get his ass whooped and the belt taken away from him. To the point that people even cheered bland ass Chris Sabin at some point because they were dying to see Bully get his.

Those are 2 recent examples of classic heel booking being executed in the modern era and working well. So no I don't think audiences are "past" anything. Wrestling fans especially those that attend shows aren't THAT sophisticated and they have no problem responding to classic tropes. As long as the classic tropes are executed properly that's the difference. The thing is most of the times with heels today they aren't and in turn it's not connecting with fans like it should instead it's got fans questioning the integrity of the booking. I think that's what JR is getting at more so than just "Lets book the heels like it was Mid Atlantic" or some shit.

 

[Peezy_Jenkins]

 

[eyes low]

maybe if they didnt bury sandow

 

[Dupac]

shit brock lesner and HHH

 

[PurelyDef]

What happened to the good ol days where wrestlers were assaulting the crowds and knocking drinks out of the hands of audience members and shit

 

[eyes low]

What happened to the good ol days where wrestlers were assaulting the crowds and knocking drinks out of the hands of audience members and shit

brock lesnar hit one with a tv monitor

 

[aneed123]

u gotta have a powerful heel who has the belt for a while is dirty as hell.