It's time to say it......Kanye West is in the same discussion at Big/Nas/Jay/Pac

[a.mann]

you niggaz need to stop

 

[LurkdogAchilles]

no. no he's not

 

[son of 1973]

Kanye did give life to the genre you have to admit that . I also lean towards artist like Q-TIP , RZA ( Producer Rappers ) . I feel that Kanye should be par for the course not standout the way he does . Meaning that Hip Hop artist should do more producing , instrument playing and exude more musicianship in their music . This brings the genre up as a whole. I do feel artist like Q-Tip and Rza and Mos Def and 3000 are better MUSICALLY as a whole than Nas , Jay , Pac etc because of their ability to not only produce but the ability to create the music and artistic vision for their projects . Yes a Nas can have a vision of what he would like his album to sound and feel like but he has to have someone else create that for him sonically.

When I speak of Kanye and his diversity, I am speaking more of his production ( even tho 808 wasnt a classic but it wasnt wack ) . Having the ability to go from Scarface to John Legend to Alicia Keys to Common show a array of diversity when it come to production . Like I said Kanye should be par for the course but due to the fact that Hip Hop doesnt have a boat load of artist that bring the talent to the table like Kanye does he stands out . Donnie Hathaway is viewed as a Legend now and one of his songs can make 40 Hip Hop tracks , but when he was alive he was an average artist of that time because of the Stevie, Marvin Gaye's, EWF , Tower of Power , Parliament , etc etc etc .Why cant Hip Hop be the same way ? Have a genre of artist with extreme talent , But again its just my opinion

I see your vision son. I dont know if Ye will be the hip hop Donny Hathaway but thats a hell of a point you made. But its like how rock is focused on guitar playing prowess. Sure, it takes more than that to create a classic rock album (songwriting, other backing music, personalities of the rockers are also factors),which is why I wont say Ye is trash or nothin like that. But when rock fans rank rockers they go by how well a guy plays the 'axe'. That's how rap is with rappers. If more nice producer/rappers come out that may evolve tho.

 

[JokerzWyld]

Kanye has glimmers of greatness about him but i can't respect an MC that gets assistance with the pen. Consequence said he wrote for him and Rhymefest too. That alone disqualifies him from the conversation. Also, he's not battle-tested. The aforementioned MCs waged battles on grand scales, Kanye refuses to answer most of the rappers that diss him. I don't even think he answered Taylor Swift. lol jk.

 

[LurkdogAchilles]

kanye has improved his rap game a whole lot since he came out, but he's still not there as an mc. when you start sayin' top5 and shit, that's a whole different league than being the best producer rapper

 

[ShencotheMC]

I see your vision son. I dont know if Ye will be the hip hop Donny Hathaway but thats a hell of a point you made. But its like how rock is focused on guitar playing prowess. Sure, it takes more than that to create a classic rock album (songwriting, other backing music, personalities of the rockers are also factors),which is why I wont say Ye is trash or nothin like that. But when rock fans rank rockers they go by how well a guy plays the 'axe'. That's how rap is with rappers. If more nice producer/rappers come out that may evolve tho.

Ummmmm what?

 

[@My_nameaintearl]

Threadstarter is right because Kanye is very overrated just like those other names.

 

[tompetrez3]

i understand where the t/s is coming from because last year before MBDTF i said kanye was a goat and he still is but to me is he watering down his legacy. 808 was an acquired taste album but MBDTF was pure horseshit and WTT was wack as fuck. he watered down his 3 classics with 3 lackluster albums which just makes him above average now. he aint spittin like he used to. all he do is talk about how everybody hates him and how famous he is. he been doing that since 08. jay z has stunted kanye growth with this european shit

 

[garv]

If You dont agree with my notion I can respect that, but calling it stupid , come on son .

Kanye did give life to the genre you have to admit that . I also lean towards artist like Q-TIP , RZA ( Producer Rappers ) . I feel that Kanye should be par for the course not standout the way he does . Meaning that Hip Hop artist should do more producing , instrument playing and exude more musicianship in their music . This brings the genre up as a whole. I do feel artist like Q-Tip and Rza and Mos Def and 3000 are better MUSICALLY as a whole than Nas , Jay , Pac etc because of their ability to not only produce but the ability to create the music and artistic vision for their projects . Yes a Nas can have a vision of what he would like his album to sound and feel like but he has to have someone else create that for him sonically.

When I speak of Kanye and his diversity, I am speaking more of his production ( even tho 808 wasnt a classic but it wasnt wack ) . Having the ability to go from Scarface to John Legend to Alicia Keys to Common show a array of diversity when it come to production . Like I said Kanye should be par for the course but due to the fact that Hip Hop doesnt have a boat load of artist that bring the talent to the table like Kanye does he stands out . Donnie Hathaway is viewed as a Legend now and one of his songs can make 40 Hip Hop tracks , but when he was alive he was an average artist of that time because of the Stevie, Marvin Gaye's, EWF , Tower of Power , Parliament , etc etc etc .Why cant Hip Hop be the same way ? Have a genre of artist with extreme talent , But again its just my opinion

How exactly did Kanye give life to the genre?

What did he bring to the table, that had nott been brought before, RZA had perfected them soul samples long before Kanye had a major hit, Just Blaze was just as influential in that era as Kanye West was as well.

Thats why i called your post stupid, because it is, how can you say one man brought life into a whole genre, a genre that was thriving before he ever even released an album. In 2001, the same time Kanye and Blaze were getting by with them soul samples on Blueprint, RZA had already done it with with Supreme Clientele a year earlier.

Also to comment on your point, it seems to me that your whole notion of artistry is based around niggas who's music tend to go to the left field. I mean Andre 3000 singing on a track about 'roses and daisys' doesn't show more artistry than Nas telling a story about a man whos wife cheats on him just before his about to propose. Just because Andre is singing about left field shit, and saying 'kamaeha' are on the track, doesn't mean his a better artist than Nas, who is telling a descriptive story, in fact i would say its the opposite.

Your point about Andre being better musically than Nas and Jay because of his vision to create the music and artistic vision for their projects is another moot one. For example you don't think Jay didn't have a vision of what he wanted Blueprint to be, you think he just picked all them soul sample infused beats randomly, of course he did not, he had a clear vision of how he wanted the album to sound, the same way he had a clear vision of how Blueprint 3 wanted to sound when he chose to pick techno beats.

And to answer your other point, Hip-Hop is a genre that is a prototype and child of all black music. Kanyes ability to produce for Scarface then John Lennon then Alicia Keys, doesn't set him apart from Premo, who could go from producing for Nas, to Limp Bizkit then to Christina Aguilera, or Salaam Remi who could go on to produce for The Fugees, then produce for Common then produce for Amy Winehouse. The so called 'diversity ' your praising Kanye for is exemplified by a whole host of producers in this genre, and no it is nothing new and neither is it a breath of fresh air because it been happening long before Kanye even discovered a beatmaker.

 

[trACE_evidence]

But what about BARS?

What's a classic Kanye verse?

I'll wait....

still waiting....

 

[eliptojeheale]

This forum is not only interesting but also very wise.

podk³ad lasting performance

 

[son of 1973]

Ummmmm what?

Yo shenco Im almost in yo hood..Im in lansdowne right now lol. Anyway when i hear rockfans talk about the biggest rock stars ever they usually talk how about who plays the guitar best (you got exceptions like Elvis tho). They call the guitar the 'axe'

 

[Mrslim1]

How exactly did Kanye give life to the genre?

What did he bring to the table, that had nott been brought before, RZA had perfected them soul samples long before Kanye had a major hit, Just Blaze was just as influential in that era as Kanye West was as well.

Thats why i called your post stupid, because it is, how can you say one man brought life into a whole genre, a genre that was thriving before he ever even released an album. In 2001, the same time Kanye and Blaze were getting by with them soul samples on Blueprint, RZA was doing it with Supreme Clientele.

Also to comment on your point, it seems to me that your whole notion of artistry is based around niggas who's music tend to go to the left field. I mean Andre 3000 singing on a track about 'roses and daisys' doesn't show more artistry than Nas telling a story about a man whos wife cheats on him just before his about to propose. Just because Andre is singing about left field shit, and saying 'kamaeha' are on the track, doesn't mean his a better artist than Nas, who is telling a descriptive story, in fact i would say its the opposite.

Your point about Andre being better musically than Nas and Jay because of his vision to create the music and artistic vision for their projects is another moot one. For example you don't think Jay didn't have a vision of what he wanted Blueprint to be, you think he just picked all them soul sample infused beats randomly, of course he did not, he had a clear vision of how he wanted the album to sound, the same way he had a clear vision of how Blueprint 3 wanted to sound when he chose to pick techno beats.

And to answer your other point, Hip-Hop is a genre that is a prototype and child of all black music. Kanyes ability to produce for Scarface then John Lennon then Alicia Keys, doesn't set him apart from Premo, who could go from producing for Nas, to Limp Bizkit then to Christina Aguilera, or Salaam Remi who could go on to produce for The Fugees, then produce for Common then produce for Amy Winehouse. The so called 'diversity ' your praising Kanye for is exemplified by a whole host of producers in this genre, and no it is nothing new and neither is it a breath of fresh air because it been happening long before Kanye even discovered a beatmaker.

I think in alot of cases we agree . No Kanye wasnt doing anything new with is music that hasnt been done . Neither was Marvin Gaye doing anything new that Sam Cooke hasnt already done before or Michael Jackson was doing anything new that James Brown or Jackie Wilson was doing . But that doesnt mean he cant set himself apart from those artist with his interpretation of the artform . Like I said in my previous post I do lean more toward the producer/rapper/musician . So the producers you named I will say are more talented and more musically inclined than most rappers. But the point is that most rappers or not musically inclined at all . They understand rap and that its . No baselines , melodies , harmonies , chords etc .

Kanye is a MegaStar thats one thing that set him apart from RZA , Premo and Salaam Remi . That is a part of the equation also . When I say Kanye brought life to the genre , in 01 Kanye was a fresh face with something to say with his music and a outlet to get tthat music heard by the masses . That in turn sparked the career of one of the greatest artist that Hip Hop as seen in a while . Also he helped John Legend get his shine to the masses and his career has been golden ever since . Common was a great rapper , but once he hooked up with YE his career had a rebirth . Twista was known by rap head , but the Kanye interaction at the time that it happened exposed his talent to so many more that may not known of his talent . Jamie Foxx a talented cat in his own right . We all knew he could sing and play piano if we watched his specials and kept up with career . But no one really took him serious as a recording artist until Slow Jams . Know he is a Grammy Award winning singer that can stand on his own as a singer . That brings life to Music as a whole and not only Hip Hop.

Look YE's passion along with his artistic ability. Bring life to music .

There are many artist that have similar talent but not the star power as Kanye . But having star power is a gift that cant be lost when talking about a artist greatness either . I just feel if he had more Kanyes , B.O.B , Roots , Outkast , Ceelo Greens in Hip Hop the genre as a whole will be more respected as a musical artfrom . Like I said earlier there are things that are unique to Hip Hop but the one thing that is not unique is that its MUSIC first . I just lean more artist with more musical talent like Kanye ( and some of the ones u mentioned ) .

comparing Nas/BIG/Pac to Kanye/Q-Tip/Roots to me is like comparing . Luther Vandross/Whitney Houston ( looked at as great vocalist ) to Curtis Mayfeild/Aretha Franklin ( Singer/songwriters/musicians ). Not dissing the great singers or rappers in this case . But I just like rappers that bring more to the table just skills on the mic . Again My Opinion

 

[NothingButTheTruth]

Y'all trying too hard. Kanye is not some great artist. He's a good rapper, and a good producer. He's not great at anything.

 

[garv]

I think in alot of cases we agree . No Kanye wasnt doing anything new with is music that hasnt been done . Neither was Marvin Gaye doing anything new that Sam Cooke hasnt already done before or Michael Jackson was doing anything new that James Brown or Jackie Wilson was doing . But that doesnt mean he cant set himself apart from those artist with his interpretation of the artform . Like I said in my previous post I do lean more toward the producer/rapper/musician . So the producers you named I will say are more talented and more musically inclined than most rappers. But the point is that most rappers or not musically inclined at all . They understand rap and that its . No baselines , melodies , harmonies , chords etc .

Kanye is a MegaStar thats one thing that set him apart from RZA , Premo and Salaam Remi . That is a part of the equation also . When I say Kanye brought life to the genre , in 01 Kanye was a fresh face with something to say with his music and a outlet to get tthat music heard by the masses . That in turn sparked the career of one of the greatest artist that Hip Hop as seen in a while . Also he helped John Legend get his shine to the masses and his career has been golden ever since . Common was a great rapper , but once he hooked up with YE his career had a rebirth . Twista was known by rap head , but the Kanye interaction at the time that it happened exposed his talent to so many more that may not known of his talent . Jamie Foxx a talented cat in his own right . We all knew he could sing and play piano if we watched his specials and kept up with career . But no one really took him serious as a recording artist until Slow Jams . Know he is a Grammy Award winning singer that can stand on his own as a singer . That brings life to Music as a whole and not only Hip Hop.

Look YE's passion along with his artistic ability. Bring life to music .

There are many artist that have similar talent but not the star power as Kanye . But having star power is a gift that cant be lost when talking about a artist greatness either . I just feel if he had more Kanyes , B.O.B , Roots , Outkast , Ceelo Greens in Hip Hop the genre as a whole will be more respected as a musical artfrom . Like I said earlier there are things that are unique to Hip Hop but the one thing that is not unique is that its MUSIC first . I just lean more artist with more musical talent like Kanye ( and some of the ones u mentioned ) .

comparing Nas/BIG/Pac to Kanye/Q-Tip/Roots to me is like comparing . Luther Vandross/Whitney Houston ( looked at as great vocalist ) to Curtis Mayfeild/Aretha Franklin ( Singer/songwriters/musicians ). Not dissing the great singers or rappers in this case . But I just like rappers that bring more to the table just skills on the mic . Again My Opinion

First of all whether Kanye is a megastar or not shouldn't be brought up in this discussion. Your original point was that his diversity set him apart from his other fellow producers, i told you of a variety of artists them producers producer for outside of rap and now you are bringing up the point about him being a megastar?

Secondly the way i took your first point was that Kanye brought life to a genre that was in a desolate state, when you said brought life to the genre i interpreted as you saying that Kanye was a some sort of messiah that brought a new way of thinking into Hip-Hop. Before Kanye had come around though soul samples were already having a rejuvanation in rap and artists like Mos Def and Outkast were already experimenting within the genre.

The fact that you said Kanye was the most important artist since NWA was my point of contention, and you chose to bring up the fact that he produced stellar albums for legends like Common and revived their career in the process(which is not even particularly true) but like i said, that isn't anything the likes of Dre Rza had not already done. Around the same period Kanye was emerging Dre was putting on Scott Storch a producer who would become the most in demand producer in rap for the subsequent years, and then theres Eminem, Game etc.

I really don't care what others feel about Hip-Hop as an artform, the likes of B.oB and Cee Lo for all their 'artistry' haven't produced consistently good albums like the likes of Common or Nas, they have contributed very little to Hip-Hop in the grandscheme of things and won't be remembered in Rap circles as anything more than footnotes. You can talk about musical talent all you want but the fact is Rap is poetry, and i dare anyone to say that producing a beat is more difficult than writing a song like 'Undying Love', it seems you just put more emphasis on the production side of things and completely miss the poetry that is just as important.

And your last point doesn't stand, because there isn't a huge disparity between Whiteney Houston and Aretha Franklin vocally, in fact Aretha Franklin is an amazing vocalist in her own right. Nas when it comes to rapping is on a whole totally different level to Kanye, with a catalogue to match.

 

[garv]

Y'all trying too hard. Kanye is not some great artist. He's a good rapper, and a good producer. He's not great at anything.

Foreal........................

 

[Disciplined InSight]

Kanye's production speaks more in volumes than his lyrical outputs which is hit and miss, but that doesn't take away from his artistry as being one of the best in this era right now..but that's due to him at ONE POINT being consistent with the albums...The College Dropout, Late Registration, Graduation are solid future classics. That 808's and Heartbreak isn't my cup of tea (too experimental) and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy was great, but it lack something...I don't know, but it wasn't the same Kanye from those first three albums. If anything his diva-like antics in the public eye put him on that "superstar" level combined with the great production, not his lyrics..

 

[Mrslim1]

First of all whether Kanye is a megastar or not shouldn't be brought up in this discussion. Your original point was that his diversity set him apart from his other fellow producers, i told you of a variety of artists them producers producer for outside of rap and now you are bringing up the point about him being a megastar?

Secondly the way i took your first point was that Kanye brought life to a genre that was in a desolate state, when you said brought life to the genre i interpreted as you saying that Kanye was a some sort of messiah that brought a new way of thinking into Hip-Hop. Before Kanye had come around though soul samples were already having a rejuvanation in rap and artists like Mos Def and Outkast were already experimenting within the genre.

The fact that you said Kanye was the most important artist since NWA was my point of contention, and you chose to bring up the fact that he produced stellar albums for legends like Common and revived their career in the process(which is not even particularly true) but like i said, that isn't anything the likes of Dre Rza had not already done. Around the same period Kanye was emerging Dre was putting on Scott Storch a producer who would become the most in demand producer in rap for the subsequent years, and then theres Eminem, Game etc.

I really don't care what others feel about Hip-Hop as an artform, the likes of B.oB and Cee Lo for all their 'artistry' haven't produced consistently good albums like the likes of Common or Nas, they have contributed very little to Hip-Hop in the grandscheme of things and won't be remembered in Rap circles as anything more than footnotes. You can talk about musical talent all you want but the fact is Rap is poetry, and i dare anyone to say that producing a beat is more difficult than writing a song like 'Undying Love', it seems you just put more emphasis on the production side of things and completely miss the poetry that is just as important.

And your last point doesn't stand, because there isn't a huge disparity between Whiteney Houston and Aretha Franklin vocally, in fact Aretha Franklin is an amazing vocalist in her own right. Nas when it comes to rapping is on a whole totally different level to Kanye, with a catalogue to match.

This can go one all night . But I will make these last few points .

1st Bolded : When I mention Kanye being a Megastar its was just in addition to the other point I spoke on in previous post about his diversity . I agreed that its not so much that he is doing anything so called new . However he is doing in a way that sets him apart from other because if the uniqueness of him ( personality , thoughts , musical interpretation , passion etc ) as a artist .

2nd Bolded : I never said he was a " Messiah " or anything like that . I said be brought life to the genre , which he did . His energy and the music he made brought life to the genre. Nothin more nothin less .

3rd Bolded : Like is said there are things that are unique to Hip Hop , Poetry aspect u speak of and along with many things . But its why opinion, and like i said I lean towards to more musical talent as a whole . Producing is NOT more difficult than writing a song like" Undying Love " . However wriiting the MUSIC ( not lyrics ) to " Rocket Love " IS more difficult than writing "Undying Love". Its just my personal preference to appreciate a Artist that can Rhyme well and can also get closest they can get to that high level of musicianship also. I give gain more respect for you as artist . Doesnt take away from Nas or Common or Jay as rappers . They are great at that and Legends no doubt but thats what I prefer out of music and artist . U cant hate on my opinion

Final Bolded . Yes Aretha and Whitney are comparable vocally , but thats it . Aretha can also play , write , compose , produce etc . And that sets her apart from Whitney , not saying Whitney is talentless but like I said the more you can give me musically the more I respect you . Again my opinion and you may not feel the same . I can respect that . Good Debate tho

Edit : Ceelo Green contributed very little to Hip Hop ? A lil harsh

 

[Focal Point]

Ummmmm what?

it's true in a lot of situations, that ability on the guitar in many arguments outweigh a lot of things in rock

 

[FyHunnit]

Easily in fact.