spiritgod87
New member
MikeydaGawd;6051087 said:
Crack has alot to do with it but there is more to it.
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Crack has alot to do with it but there is more to it.
Meta_Conscious
New member
y'all under estimate leadership... if it wasnt important they wouldn't keep killing the good ones...
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damobb2deep
New member
DROSAIN_BOLT;6051224 said:MLK WOULD BE LIKE 80 OR SOMETHING.. NIGGA AINT GOT TIME FOR YALL FOOLISHNESS!
and how old is al sharpton and jesse jackson..
damobb2deep;6051257 said:DROSAIN_BOLT;6051224 said:MLK WOULD BE LIKE 80 OR SOMETHING.. NIGGA AINT GOT TIME FOR YALL FOOLISHNESS!
and how old is al sharpton and jesse jackson..
SHARP IS 58
JJ IS 71
THIRDSUPREME
New member
A lot of the riots that had taken place in the 60s wouldnt have. You pretty much have to go from there... obviously shit woukd be way different.
TheGambinoLegacy
New member
if he were around today with this media all the extramarital affairs he had would be brought up. hed be worse off than what tiger woods had to go thru. you people dont want that
I don't understand why alot of black folks think we need some type of savior or leader...
Maybe thats the problem with our community...too many ppl are willing to be followers, feeling as if they need to be led somewhere..last time a large group of blacks followed somebody, they ended up lost in the desert for 40 years..
I appreciate the fight that was had before i was born for civil rights but I don't look at no man to do some shit I can do for myself..
Maybe thats the problem with our community...too many ppl are willing to be followers, feeling as if they need to be led somewhere..last time a large group of blacks followed somebody, they ended up lost in the desert for 40 years..
I appreciate the fight that was had before i was born for civil rights but I don't look at no man to do some shit I can do for myself..
The time for leaders is over we need ideals ideas and common principles that we can all live by. You can easily kill or discredit a leader or their organization but you cannot easily kill an idea.
If mlk were around to day he would have been a mix of al sharpton and t.d jakes.
If mlk were around to day he would have been a mix of al sharpton and t.d jakes.
Osborne is interviewed in Michael C. Ruppert's book Crossing the Rubicon, calling Ruppert's source Mike Vreeland a "dangle" or piece of intelligence bait.
“I believe that, from the information I have seen, “Mike” Vreeland tried to pass information to the Canadian government that should have been passed to the US government. This information had to do with the attacks of September 11. Whatever other attempts were made by Vreeland and his attorneys to alert US and Canadian officials of the attacks, it is clear he did pass information about the pending attacks to his guards in August. I am willing to go to the Secretary of the Navy to determine whether or not he was actually a Navy officer.
“I know that there have been other US citizens with a similar background used on missions similar to what is alleged by Vreeland. This man fits a pattern. I would like for the Secret Sevice to put him on a polygraph.” --LMO
Leutrell "Mike" Osborne, 26 year veteran CIA Case Officer and Counter Intelligence expert like many African-Americans are somewhat familiar with the now deceased Director of Domestic Intelligence for the FBI, William Sullivan. Most of those who know of him also know that he was killed a week before he was to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977. What can be learned of his career comes from his autobiography (that was completed and published after his untimely death), FBI files, news articles, and press accounts. One thing that rises out of the fog is that Mr. Sullivan directed the 'Destroy King Squad' This was a Covert Action Intelligence Operation whose mission was to destroy the effectiveness of Martin Luther King Jr. If assassination was an authorized tool in their tool-belt then they surely completed their assignment. This squad was part of a larger operation acronymed COINTEL PRO for Counter Intelligence Program.
Mr. Osborne's knowledge of Bill Sullivan's operations goes far beyond what most know because of his special opportunities to learn of such things as a CIA Case Officer. Even with this special insight still Leutrell has been asking others for more information. One of those he asked was Gary Revel, a special investigator on the King case. Gary had met William Sullivan in 1977 during his investigation of MLK's murder and saw a different side of the man than most. Like the little known fact that William Sullivan became sickened with the FBI's abuse of the basic human rights of others and challenged J. Edgar Hoover the day before he was locked out of his office in 1972. Shortly after that he resigned. Gary remembers that Sullivan had challenged J. Edgar and said 'either you go or I go' and subsequently Sullivan left.
Another important detail of William Sullivan's life is that a few months before he was to testify before the HSCA he met at least one person, and most likely others, providing information and files that would be the basis of a real investigation designed to find the real killers of King. This also happened in 1977 and because of the government's tampering and interfering with the evidence in the case it is likely that the evidence is lost and will never surface again. Special Investigator Gary Revel's home was ransacked once and then during an eviction all his files on the King case disappeared. William Sullivan's goal was to testify before the public HSCA hearings and lay his cards on the table so to speak. He was going to give the committee and the American people the truth about J. Edgar Hoover's hatred of Martin Luther King Jr. as well as his hatred for President John Kennedy and Presidential Candidate Robert Kennedy. Sullivan's knowledge of how the FBI worked with the CIA when it came to J. Edgar driven plans to neutralize the human rights activities of African-American leaders and their supporters was unique. This knowledge and the evidence he was prepared to present would have given the HSCA the direction it needed to truly uncover and prosecute the perpetrators of the JFK and MLK assassinations. It is no wonder that those who had the most to lose if the truth came out were not unhappy to hear of his 'accidental murder' The official record says that Robert Daniels mistook William Sullivan for a deer while deer hunting and shot and killed him before Bill could make his revelations public.
Mr. Revel says he is still trying to unravel the bizarre happenings of that year. His brother, his cousin's husband, William Sullivan and 5 other FBI or former FBI officials who could have been valuable to his investigation died mysteriously or were simply killed during that year. Sullivan and the other 5 were scheduled to testify before the committee. Donald Kaylor was a fingerprint expert who had worked on the JFK assassintion evidence. Alan Belmont and Louis Nicholas were both special assistants to J. Edgar Hoover. JFK assassination document examiner and expert James Cadigan was another. J.M. English, an expert on the rifle that supposedly killed President John F. Kennedy and was head of the FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory was also dispatched. Those who travel to a place beyond reason and continue to try to defend the official stories of lone assassins and thorough investigations simply haven't gotten it yet. When there are so many coincidences any reasonable personwill just know that something is amiss.
“I believe that, from the information I have seen, “Mike” Vreeland tried to pass information to the Canadian government that should have been passed to the US government. This information had to do with the attacks of September 11. Whatever other attempts were made by Vreeland and his attorneys to alert US and Canadian officials of the attacks, it is clear he did pass information about the pending attacks to his guards in August. I am willing to go to the Secretary of the Navy to determine whether or not he was actually a Navy officer.
“I know that there have been other US citizens with a similar background used on missions similar to what is alleged by Vreeland. This man fits a pattern. I would like for the Secret Sevice to put him on a polygraph.” --LMO
Leutrell "Mike" Osborne, 26 year veteran CIA Case Officer and Counter Intelligence expert like many African-Americans are somewhat familiar with the now deceased Director of Domestic Intelligence for the FBI, William Sullivan. Most of those who know of him also know that he was killed a week before he was to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977. What can be learned of his career comes from his autobiography (that was completed and published after his untimely death), FBI files, news articles, and press accounts. One thing that rises out of the fog is that Mr. Sullivan directed the 'Destroy King Squad' This was a Covert Action Intelligence Operation whose mission was to destroy the effectiveness of Martin Luther King Jr. If assassination was an authorized tool in their tool-belt then they surely completed their assignment. This squad was part of a larger operation acronymed COINTEL PRO for Counter Intelligence Program.
Mr. Osborne's knowledge of Bill Sullivan's operations goes far beyond what most know because of his special opportunities to learn of such things as a CIA Case Officer. Even with this special insight still Leutrell has been asking others for more information. One of those he asked was Gary Revel, a special investigator on the King case. Gary had met William Sullivan in 1977 during his investigation of MLK's murder and saw a different side of the man than most. Like the little known fact that William Sullivan became sickened with the FBI's abuse of the basic human rights of others and challenged J. Edgar Hoover the day before he was locked out of his office in 1972. Shortly after that he resigned. Gary remembers that Sullivan had challenged J. Edgar and said 'either you go or I go' and subsequently Sullivan left.
Another important detail of William Sullivan's life is that a few months before he was to testify before the HSCA he met at least one person, and most likely others, providing information and files that would be the basis of a real investigation designed to find the real killers of King. This also happened in 1977 and because of the government's tampering and interfering with the evidence in the case it is likely that the evidence is lost and will never surface again. Special Investigator Gary Revel's home was ransacked once and then during an eviction all his files on the King case disappeared. William Sullivan's goal was to testify before the public HSCA hearings and lay his cards on the table so to speak. He was going to give the committee and the American people the truth about J. Edgar Hoover's hatred of Martin Luther King Jr. as well as his hatred for President John Kennedy and Presidential Candidate Robert Kennedy. Sullivan's knowledge of how the FBI worked with the CIA when it came to J. Edgar driven plans to neutralize the human rights activities of African-American leaders and their supporters was unique. This knowledge and the evidence he was prepared to present would have given the HSCA the direction it needed to truly uncover and prosecute the perpetrators of the JFK and MLK assassinations. It is no wonder that those who had the most to lose if the truth came out were not unhappy to hear of his 'accidental murder' The official record says that Robert Daniels mistook William Sullivan for a deer while deer hunting and shot and killed him before Bill could make his revelations public.
Mr. Revel says he is still trying to unravel the bizarre happenings of that year. His brother, his cousin's husband, William Sullivan and 5 other FBI or former FBI officials who could have been valuable to his investigation died mysteriously or were simply killed during that year. Sullivan and the other 5 were scheduled to testify before the committee. Donald Kaylor was a fingerprint expert who had worked on the JFK assassintion evidence. Alan Belmont and Louis Nicholas were both special assistants to J. Edgar Hoover. JFK assassination document examiner and expert James Cadigan was another. J.M. English, an expert on the rifle that supposedly killed President John F. Kennedy and was head of the FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory was also dispatched. Those who travel to a place beyond reason and continue to try to defend the official stories of lone assassins and thorough investigations simply haven't gotten it yet. When there are so many coincidences any reasonable personwill just know that something is amiss.
Osborne is interviewed in Michael C. Ruppert's book Crossing the Rubicon, calling Ruppert's source Mike Vreeland a "dangle" or piece of intelligence bait.
“I believe that, from the information I have seen, “Mike” Vreeland tried to pass information to the Canadian government that should have been passed to the US government. This information had to do with the attacks of September 11. Whatever other attempts were made by Vreeland and his attorneys to alert US and Canadian officials of the attacks, it is clear he did pass information about the pending attacks to his guards in August. I am willing to go to the Secretary of the Navy to determine whether or not he was actually a Navy officer.
“I know that there have been other US citizens with a similar background used on missions similar to what is alleged by Vreeland. This man fits a pattern. I would like for the Secret Sevice to put him on a polygraph.” --LMO
Leutrell "Mike" Osborne, 26 year veteran CIA Case Officer and Counter Intelligence expert like many African-Americans are somewhat familiar with the now deceased Director of Domestic Intelligence for the FBI, William Sullivan. Most of those who know of him also know that he was killed a week before he was to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977. What can be learned of his career comes from his autobiography (that was completed and published after his untimely death), FBI files, news articles, and press accounts. One thing that rises out of the fog is that Mr. Sullivan directed the 'Destroy King Squad' This was a Covert Action Intelligence Operation whose mission was to destroy the effectiveness of Martin Luther King Jr. If assassination was an authorized tool in their tool-belt then they surely completed their assignment. This squad was part of a larger operation acronymed COINTEL PRO for Counter Intelligence Program.
Mr. Osborne's knowledge of Bill Sullivan's operations goes far beyond what most know because of his special opportunities to learn of such things as a CIA Case Officer. Even with this special insight still Leutrell has been asking others for more information. One of those he asked was Gary Revel, a special investigator on the King case. Gary had met William Sullivan in 1977 during his investigation of MLK's murder and saw a different side of the man than most. Like the little known fact that William Sullivan became sickened with the FBI's abuse of the basic human rights of others and challenged J. Edgar Hoover the day before he was locked out of his office in 1972. Shortly after that he resigned. Gary remembers that Sullivan had challenged J. Edgar and said 'either you go or I go' and subsequently Sullivan left.
Another important detail of William Sullivan's life is that a few months before he was to testify before the HSCA he met at least one person, and most likely others, providing information and files that would be the basis of a real investigation designed to find the real killers of King. This also happened in 1977 and because of the government's tampering and interfering with the evidence in the case it is likely that the evidence is lost and will never surface again. Special Investigator Gary Revel's home was ransacked once and then during an eviction all his files on the King case disappeared. William Sullivan's goal was to testify before the public HSCA hearings and lay his cards on the table so to speak. He was going to give the committee and the American people the truth about J. Edgar Hoover's hatred of Martin Luther King Jr. as well as his hatred for President John Kennedy and Presidential Candidate Robert Kennedy. Sullivan's knowledge of how the FBI worked with the CIA when it came to J. Edgar driven plans to neutralize the human rights activities of African-American leaders and their supporters was unique. This knowledge and the evidence he was prepared to present would have given the HSCA the direction it needed to truly uncover and prosecute the perpetrators of the JFK and MLK assassinations. It is no wonder that those who had the most to lose if the truth came out were not unhappy to hear of his 'accidental murder' The official record says that Robert Daniels mistook William Sullivan for a deer while deer hunting and shot and killed him before Bill could make his revelations public.
Mr. Revel says he is still trying to unravel the bizarre happenings of that year. His brother, his cousin's husband, William Sullivan and 5 other FBI or former FBI officials who could have been valuable to his investigation died mysteriously or were simply killed during that year. Sullivan and the other 5 were scheduled to testify before the committee. Donald Kaylor was a fingerprint expert who had worked on the JFK assassintion evidence. Alan Belmont and Louis Nicholas were both special assistants to J. Edgar Hoover. JFK assassination document examiner and expert James Cadigan was another. J.M. English, an expert on the rifle that supposedly killed President John F. Kennedy and was head of the FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory was also dispatched. Those who travel to a place beyond reason and continue to try to defend the official stories of lone assassins and thorough investigations simply haven't gotten it yet. When there are so many coincidences any reasonable personwill just know that something is amiss.
“I believe that, from the information I have seen, “Mike” Vreeland tried to pass information to the Canadian government that should have been passed to the US government. This information had to do with the attacks of September 11. Whatever other attempts were made by Vreeland and his attorneys to alert US and Canadian officials of the attacks, it is clear he did pass information about the pending attacks to his guards in August. I am willing to go to the Secretary of the Navy to determine whether or not he was actually a Navy officer.
“I know that there have been other US citizens with a similar background used on missions similar to what is alleged by Vreeland. This man fits a pattern. I would like for the Secret Sevice to put him on a polygraph.” --LMO
Leutrell "Mike" Osborne, 26 year veteran CIA Case Officer and Counter Intelligence expert like many African-Americans are somewhat familiar with the now deceased Director of Domestic Intelligence for the FBI, William Sullivan. Most of those who know of him also know that he was killed a week before he was to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1977. What can be learned of his career comes from his autobiography (that was completed and published after his untimely death), FBI files, news articles, and press accounts. One thing that rises out of the fog is that Mr. Sullivan directed the 'Destroy King Squad' This was a Covert Action Intelligence Operation whose mission was to destroy the effectiveness of Martin Luther King Jr. If assassination was an authorized tool in their tool-belt then they surely completed their assignment. This squad was part of a larger operation acronymed COINTEL PRO for Counter Intelligence Program.
Mr. Osborne's knowledge of Bill Sullivan's operations goes far beyond what most know because of his special opportunities to learn of such things as a CIA Case Officer. Even with this special insight still Leutrell has been asking others for more information. One of those he asked was Gary Revel, a special investigator on the King case. Gary had met William Sullivan in 1977 during his investigation of MLK's murder and saw a different side of the man than most. Like the little known fact that William Sullivan became sickened with the FBI's abuse of the basic human rights of others and challenged J. Edgar Hoover the day before he was locked out of his office in 1972. Shortly after that he resigned. Gary remembers that Sullivan had challenged J. Edgar and said 'either you go or I go' and subsequently Sullivan left.
Another important detail of William Sullivan's life is that a few months before he was to testify before the HSCA he met at least one person, and most likely others, providing information and files that would be the basis of a real investigation designed to find the real killers of King. This also happened in 1977 and because of the government's tampering and interfering with the evidence in the case it is likely that the evidence is lost and will never surface again. Special Investigator Gary Revel's home was ransacked once and then during an eviction all his files on the King case disappeared. William Sullivan's goal was to testify before the public HSCA hearings and lay his cards on the table so to speak. He was going to give the committee and the American people the truth about J. Edgar Hoover's hatred of Martin Luther King Jr. as well as his hatred for President John Kennedy and Presidential Candidate Robert Kennedy. Sullivan's knowledge of how the FBI worked with the CIA when it came to J. Edgar driven plans to neutralize the human rights activities of African-American leaders and their supporters was unique. This knowledge and the evidence he was prepared to present would have given the HSCA the direction it needed to truly uncover and prosecute the perpetrators of the JFK and MLK assassinations. It is no wonder that those who had the most to lose if the truth came out were not unhappy to hear of his 'accidental murder' The official record says that Robert Daniels mistook William Sullivan for a deer while deer hunting and shot and killed him before Bill could make his revelations public.
Mr. Revel says he is still trying to unravel the bizarre happenings of that year. His brother, his cousin's husband, William Sullivan and 5 other FBI or former FBI officials who could have been valuable to his investigation died mysteriously or were simply killed during that year. Sullivan and the other 5 were scheduled to testify before the committee. Donald Kaylor was a fingerprint expert who had worked on the JFK assassintion evidence. Alan Belmont and Louis Nicholas were both special assistants to J. Edgar Hoover. JFK assassination document examiner and expert James Cadigan was another. J.M. English, an expert on the rifle that supposedly killed President John F. Kennedy and was head of the FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory was also dispatched. Those who travel to a place beyond reason and continue to try to defend the official stories of lone assassins and thorough investigations simply haven't gotten it yet. When there are so many coincidences any reasonable personwill just know that something is amiss.
BossBoo;6050912 said:Malcolm >>> King
THIRDSUPREME
New member
Ideas? Ideals? How about action? Who do you mentor? What do you do? What actions do you take to improve the spirit of black folks in your community and nationwide. Be honest with yourself.... if the answer is nothing then how do you fix your mouth to speak against someone who does or has? You can't just talk about it you gotta be about it. That goes for all of us who want better for our race.
NIKE...;6050749 said:No speaker is more powerful than dope and money..
Folks are too busy treating the symptoms and not the cause..you think a young person is gonna give a fuck about what anybody is saying when he is making more money in a day than most make in 2 weeks?
You wanna reach the youth, get rid of the drugs and maybe you'll begin to see an impact..crack perverted the efforts of the civil rights movement and destroyed black unity..
You can get 1000 black leaders to stand up but unless they are willing to tackle the drug problems in black communities, they will be mostly ineffective..these youngsters, get hi, sell dope and fuck bitches..and if they aint sellin, they buyin..
crack is dead. If it was pills, maybe. Plus pills don't fuck you up as bad as crack. The drug game mostly dried up money wise and most dope dealers are merely collecting scraps. There is a reason why there is less crime than decades past, despite the standard of living going down and less jobs available. Only young dudes you gotta worry about is them CHief Keef niggas.
IF MLK saw this shit about George Zimmerman's case as well as the rampant black on black violence and hatred, he would speak out against that shit hardcore.
BossBoo;6050987 said:spiritgod87;6050957 said:U see,MLK was by the book. Went to school, was a pastor, very intelligent, two parent household etc, u cant fuck with his resume. I read malcolm x's autobiography several times, its too much for those crakkkas to attack. Both of em workin together woulda been a sight tho
nigga SAID his name was Martin Luther cause it sounded good..
nigga cheated in college to pass..
paid for prostitutes wit the churches money..
i think that nigga's father went by "Big Daddy" in the streets or somethin..
jus the simple fact he paid for pussy (white pussy at that) and Malcolm use to put prices on pussy shows how Malcolm was a realer nigga then Michael.. get out of here kid..
and i can argue King got killed for him communist ties moreso then his "uplifting" of black people..
SMH @ this. Don't compare leaders and make them fight against each other. We live in the era of globalization, anyway. Integration was inevitable in the 21st century.
Considering blacks have been enslaved mentally, and physically for 400 somethin years it could be alot worse.
Women have been raped, fathers sold off and bred to other human beings to be better slaves. This isnt over a few decades. this is over hundreds of years. You got some people who were born a slave and died a slave. Even after "slavery", its not like whites were saying "sorry bout that slavery thing, its all good now, you can have some of our land since you built most of it anyway."
There were slaves who didnt know what to do. Then you got the KKK, whites only, colored only. Jim Crow. Its like a movie where everytime we get by one monster, another keeps coming for us. The reason some of us care so much about what whites think is because we were told we werent smarter, or even on the same level as them. And the thing is, we were drinking from "coloreds only" water fountains like yesterday. Not to mention drugs in the community, lack of mentorship, etc.
If you look back and actually chronicle all the hardships and struggles , Id say we're still here and doing the best with what we have to work with.
In the words of Patrice "If you think about it, Black people should be flying planes into buildings and forming their own taliban because of the atrocities done to us. We really should be the ones doing terrorist acts, but we havent. Whites are on borrowed time, and deep down they know it."
Things are bad for us. Weve all seen it firsthand. Drugs, kids havin kids, fathers in prison, violence on each other.
Its gonna take some time to regroup and get things going in the right direction. But Its quite amazing to see how much blacks have been through and are going through and we still havent given up. For the most part weve handled bad situations the best way you could and kept on going. If you think about it, most individuals who has gone through a tramautic experience take years to heal, and move on. I think blacks are doing the same. The challenging part is not having the victim mentality. To get to a point where we acknowledge that there will always be racism and what happened to our ancestors, yet move on and not rely on one person to save us. If blacks could just get organized more, it would be a great start.
Women have been raped, fathers sold off and bred to other human beings to be better slaves. This isnt over a few decades. this is over hundreds of years. You got some people who were born a slave and died a slave. Even after "slavery", its not like whites were saying "sorry bout that slavery thing, its all good now, you can have some of our land since you built most of it anyway."
There were slaves who didnt know what to do. Then you got the KKK, whites only, colored only. Jim Crow. Its like a movie where everytime we get by one monster, another keeps coming for us. The reason some of us care so much about what whites think is because we were told we werent smarter, or even on the same level as them. And the thing is, we were drinking from "coloreds only" water fountains like yesterday. Not to mention drugs in the community, lack of mentorship, etc.
If you look back and actually chronicle all the hardships and struggles , Id say we're still here and doing the best with what we have to work with.
In the words of Patrice "If you think about it, Black people should be flying planes into buildings and forming their own taliban because of the atrocities done to us. We really should be the ones doing terrorist acts, but we havent. Whites are on borrowed time, and deep down they know it."
Things are bad for us. Weve all seen it firsthand. Drugs, kids havin kids, fathers in prison, violence on each other.
Its gonna take some time to regroup and get things going in the right direction. But Its quite amazing to see how much blacks have been through and are going through and we still havent given up. For the most part weve handled bad situations the best way you could and kept on going. If you think about it, most individuals who has gone through a tramautic experience take years to heal, and move on. I think blacks are doing the same. The challenging part is not having the victim mentality. To get to a point where we acknowledge that there will always be racism and what happened to our ancestors, yet move on and not rely on one person to save us. If blacks could just get organized more, it would be a great start.
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CheifThird;6052239 said:Ideas? Ideals? How about action? Who do you mentor? What do you do? What actions do you take to improve the spirit of black folks in your community and nationwide. Be honest with yourself.... if the answer is nothing then how do you fix your mouth to speak against someone who does or has? You can't just talk about it you gotta be about it. That goes for all of us who want better for our race.
No action taken without proper sustaining principles will accomplish anything, all gains will be short and they will be lost. Movements centered around one man always fail to accomplish their goals because when that man is gone the movement often dies with him or is made too weak to change things on a grand scale, even worse sometimes the movement and the personage of the people who created it is co-opted by others with their own motives.
Ideals live on until proven faulty. Mlk dream is on it's last legs. You want action find the proper ideal and principle and live by it everyone you meet in your life bring them to this ideal. A persons actions are a result of their character and a persons character is informed by their ideals and ideas.
I did not speak against mlk i respect him even through i do not agree with him. You want action but the actions needed now is an internal one.
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NIKE...;6052677 said:Lol at the die dope game drying up.. Yeah okay fam and I'm an executive working for Goldman/Sachs
crack is dryin up
if you out there you would see that
