If God exists we really dont have free will.

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Being omnipotent has it's limitations. God, for example, can't do anything wrong. "But", you would say, "God wouldn't want to do anything wrong." Yep - another limitation. I can want to do something wrong - God can't. God will never know what it truly feels like to personally commit a sin. I remember watching George Carlin with his trick questions for Catholic priests like, "Can God create a rock so big that he himself can't lift it?" Yes - this is all funny - but there really are some serious limitations to being omnipotent.

The Bible says God knows the future.So - if God knows the future, do we have free will? I mean - since God already knows what we are going to do - then we really don't have any choice. We seem to have a choice because we don't know what we are going to do. But - if God knows the future then reality is like a movie that's already been written and it's like we are watching the movie for the first time - so we don't know what's going to happen - but God has already seen the movie and he knows what's going to happen - and that's it. The movie can't change.

What this means is - there really is no such thing as "free will". Free Will implies that we have a choice and that we can do A or we can do B but if God already knows we are going to do A then we are going to do A. We can't chose to do B because if we chose B then God would have been wrong about knowing we were going to chose A, and God can't be wrong. Thus there really is no real choice.

So if you go and run into the middle of rush hour traffic at 5 pm today, will you stand before God and tell Him that "I got killed because you forced me to run into traffic"? Com on man. Get real bro. If we didn't have free will we would be robots. If you decide to respond to this message your exersizing your will and if you decide not to respond your exersizing your will.

We have freedom to do either whats right or whats wrong. Nobody forces us to do anything my friend. Yeah God knows the end from the beginning and all points in between, but we don't. We don't even know if we will be alive in the next hour. We live in the moment because we are finite created beings.

God knowing what is going to happen doesn't release any of the responsibility that you still have to do whats right. Your trying to construct a box that will fit your idea and conception of who God is. And quite frankly it's pathetic. You can't place limitations on God. You even started out with a faulty premise by saying that God has limitations even though He is omnipotent. Ridiculous. You have no clue who God is my friend. You need Jesus. Only He can reveal the Father to you.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

So if you go and run into the middle of rush hour traffic at 5 pm today, will you stand before God and tell Him that "I got killed because you forced me to run into traffic"? Com on man. Get real bro. If we didn't have free will we would be robots. If you decide to respond to this message your exersizing your will and if you decide not to respond your exersizing your will.

We have freedom to do either whats right or whats wrong. Nobody forces us to do anything my friend. Yeah God knows the end from the beginning and all points in between, but we don't. We don't even know if we will be alive in the next hour. We live in the moment because we are finite created beings.

God knowing what is going to happen doesn't release any of the responsibility that you still have to do whats right. Your trying to construct a box that will fit your idea and conception of who God is. And quite frankly it's pathetic. You can't place limitations on God. You even started out with a faulty premise by saying that God has limitations even though He is omnipotent. Ridiculous. You have no clue who God is my friend. You need Jesus. Only He can reveal the Father to you.

If I ran into traffic and got killed god would have known I was going to do that already, therefore no its not really free will.

@ The bolded I thought it was the devil and his evil instilled in us that made us do wrong at times, thats not free will either then because we arent willingly doing wrong we are being forced by evil to do wrong.

Not saying that your wrong just stating you havent really answered my question, if we have free will god shouldnt know the future because we would have the ability to control it, if he knows the future we really dont have that ability

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Also if god knows the future, he would have known that the world was going to end basically because of our sins, why would he even have created us then if he knew for a fact we'd fuck it up

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

If I ran into traffic and got killed god would have known I was going to do that already, therefore no its not really free will.

@ The bolded I thought it was the devil and his evil instilled in us that made us do wrong at times, thats not free will either then because we arent willingly doing wrong we are being forced by evil to do wrong.

Not saying that your wrong just stating you havent really answered my question, if we have free will god shouldnt know the future because we would have the ability to control it, if he knows the future we really dont have that ability

Explain how created beings having free will interferes with an infinite creators all-knowing power? I don't get your argument.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Also if god knows the future, he would have known that the world was going to end basically because of our sins, why would he even have created us then if he knew for a fact we'd fuck it up

Because He loves us. Thats why God paid the penalty for our salvation. God paid the price to redeem mankind. Thats love my brother.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Explain how created beings having free will interferes with an infinite creators all-knowing power? I don't get your argument.

If god knows whats going to happen right, then we wouldnt have free will its basically saying that we are on a created course, nothing we do can change or alter the futures outcome, that is not free will. Your just observing free will as oh I can wake up and go do whatever I want. Yes that would be considered free will, but if God knows what you are doing before you do it, it is not free will its a designed course because that would mean even though you woke up and ran and jumped into a lake god knew it was going to happen so it was already pre determined you were going to do it. I cant explain it any clearer. To me and others im sure free will means you have the oppurtunity to control your future and ultimately future generations as well based of what we figure out about the earth and how to preserve it. If its pre determined by god the world will end then this is not possible, and therefore free will isnt our option but rather to believe in the illusion of free will and follow our pre designed path

 

[TX_Made713]

So if you go and run into the middle of rush hour traffic at 5 pm today, will you stand before God and tell Him that "I got killed because you forced me to run into traffic"? Com on man. Get real bro. If we didn't have free will we would be robots. If you decide to respond to this message your exersizing your will and if you decide not to respond your exersizing your will.

We have freedom to do either whats right or whats wrong. Nobody forces us to do anything my friend. Yeah God knows the end from the beginning and all points in between, but we don't. We don't even know if we will be alive in the next hour. We live in the moment because we are finite created beings.

God knowing what is going to happen doesn't release any of the responsibility that you still have to do whats right. Your trying to construct a box that will fit your idea and conception of who God is. And quite frankly it's pathetic. You can't place limitations on God. You even started out with a faulty premise by saying that God has limitations even though He is omnipotent. Ridiculous. You have no clue who God is my friend. You need Jesus. Only He can reveal the Father to you.

do you believe in things happening that are meant to be?

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

If god knows whats going to happen right, then we wouldnt have free will its basically saying that we are on a created course, nothing we do can change or alter the futures outcome, that is not free will. Your just observing free will as oh I can wake up and go do whatever I want. Yes that would be considered free will, but if God knows what you are doing before you do it, it is not free will its a designed course because that would mean even though you woke up and ran and jumped into a lake god knew it was going to happen so it was already pre determined you were going to do it. I cant explain it any clearer. To me and others im sure free will means you have the oppurtunity to control your future and ultimately future generations as well based of what we figure out about the earth and how to preserve it. If its pre determined by god the world will end then this is not possible, and therefore free will isnt our option but rather to believe in the illusion of free will and follow our pre designed path

You have heard the gospel message of Jesus Christ on more than 1 occasion and you have yet to respond to His call to repentance. So if God were to require your soul today in an unrepentant and lost condition, who's fault would it be when you stand before God at the great white throne judgment?

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

do you believe in things happening that are meant to be?

Of course. God is soveriegn and whatever He has purposed that will stand. Nothing that mankind does can alter the plans of God for His creation. Do you think God gets surprised at anything mankind does?

 

[ThaChozenWun]

You have heard the gospel message of Jesus Christ on more than 1 occasion and you have yet to respond to His call to repentance. So if God were to require your soul today in an unrepentant and lost condition, who's fault would it be when you stand before God at the great white throne judgment?

What signs have I gotten from Jesus asking me to repent I have had seriously no bad things in my life after I stopped believing in the bible.

If I am there on judgement day I will ask god the same questions and point out all his inconsistantcies, if he gets all emotional as hes known to do then I guess I go to hell, Ive already accepted this. If I am taken in an unrepentant condition then yes I blame god for his mistakes. If the earth is not billions of years old, if his contradictions are there for a reason, if killing egyptian babies is a good thing, if dinosaurs bones are just an illusion if people pre dating adam and eves time are just illusions and only fake bones placed by god then I dont see how its my fault for believing this illusions, he should not have made them if people were going to question these things. He should of made it clear the real age of earth as well as he should of found and corrected his contracting ways. He should have wrote a book for people himself or had jesus right it himself while he was here, not have followers of the disciples who followed jesus right them.

You are still not answering my question, how is it free will when we are presumably on a designed course to extinction? Another thing I wonder is why would god have instilled in us this magical semi-free will if he knew some would use it to look for answers in his inconsistencies, and beyond that why would a man or woman who knows everything have inconsistencies in his story. If he created the world in 6 days about 10k years ago, he must have also created an illusion the Earth is billions of years old, also he must have scattered "fake" dinosaur bones all over so we thought it was older than 10 thousand years old, why would he do this confusing act if we are to literally take his word. Better yet if its the "Devil" who confuses and alters minds why did God create him, he should have seen it coming being he knows the future, you never answer my questions.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Of course. God is soveriegn and whatever He has purposed that will stand. Nothing that mankind does can alter the plans of God for His creation. Do you think God gets surprised at anything mankind does?

You basically just said then, No free will doesnt exist because no matter what god has it planned and it is ment to happen

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Energy seems to carry more omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience than biblical gods.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

What signs have I gotten from Jesus asking me to repent I have had seriously no bad things in my life after I stopped believing in the bible.
If I am there on judgement day I will ask god the same questions and point out all his inconsistantcies, if he gets all emotional as hes known to do then I guess I go to hell, Ive already accepted this. If I am taken in an unrepentant condition then yes I blame god for his mistakes. If the earth is not billions of years old, if his contradictions are there for a reason, if killing egyptian babies is a good thing, if dinosaurs bones are just an illusion if people pre dating adam and eves time are just illusions and only fake bones placed by god then I dont see how its my fault for believing this illusions, he should not have made them if people were going to question these things. He should of made it clear the real age of earth as well as he should of found and corrected his contracting ways. He should have wrote a book for people himself or had jesus right it himself while he was here, not have followers of the disciples who followed jesus right them.
You are still not answering my question, how is it free will when we are presumably on a designed course to extinction? Another thing I wonder is why would god have instilled in us this magical semi-free will if he knew some would use it to look for answers in his inconsistencies, and beyond that why would a man or woman who knows everything have inconsistencies in his story. If he created the world in 6 days about 10k years ago, he must have also created an illusion the Earth is billions of years old, also he must have scattered "fake" dinosaur bones all over so we thought it was older than 10 thousand years old, why would he do this confusing act if we are to literally take his word. Better yet if its the "Devil" who confuses and alters minds why did God create him, he should have seen it coming being he knows the future, you never answer my questions.

There are no contradictions with God. Your presupputions are clouding your judgment. If you think that there are inconsistency's with God, then your already working with a faulty framework. A perfect being has no flaws, inconsistency's, or contradictions. Your choosing to believe that God has those things. Why? I don't know. But until you realize that we are the ones who are wrong and at fault, you will never be able to get past the starting line.

And your right, if you do die in an unrepentant state, God will give you a chance to present your case before Him. But when you stand before God to be judged, you will be judged according to His rules, standards, and obligations. Those rules, standards, and obligations are holiness, righteousness, and perfection. When God shows you how you lived your life in total disobedience to His moral code, what leg will you have to stand on before Him? Ultimately you will realize that you were in the wrong and God is just in the sentence He will hand down upon you. But why even have that be a possibility when God has made a way for you to be right with Him? Jesus Christ has provided salvation for you my brother. If you accept Him, God will accept you. Why not place your faith in Him so that you can live with Him forever?

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Energy seems to carry more omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience than biblical gods.

This is true, but they wil argue it seems this way because God is energy

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

You basically just said then, No free will doesnt exist because no matter what god has it planned and it is ment to happen

No. free will does exists. You have the choice of either accepting Jesus Christ or rejecting Him. What will you choose today? Life or death?

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Deuteronomy 30:19-20

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

This is true, but they wil argue it seems this way because God is energy

Maybe that is what "god" is or was to them. They didn't understand the terms we use today to describe things.

 

[ThaChozenWun]

There are no contradictions with God. Your presupputions are clouding your judgment. If you think that there are inconsistency's with God, then your already working with a faulty framework. A perfect being has no flaws, inconsistency's, or contradictions. Your choosing to believe that God has those things. Why? I don't know. But until you realize that we are the ones who are wrong and at fault, you will never be able to get past the starting line.

And your right, if you do die in an unrepentant state, God will give you a chance to present your case before Him. But when you stand before God to be judged, you will be judged according to His rules, standards, and obligations. Those rules, standards, and obligations are holiness, righteousness, and perfection. When God shows you how you lived your life in total disobedience to His moral code, what leg will you have to stand on before Him? Ultimately you will realize that you were in the wrong and God is just in the sentence He will hand down upon you. But why even have that be a possibility when God has made a way for you to be right with Him? Jesus Christ has provided salvation for you my brother. If you accept Him, God will accept you. Why not place your faith in Him so that you can live with Him forever?

So him killing babies over their parents issues is okay? If he tells man not to murder why should he murder innocent children. Why should men have to murder sheep and smear blood upon their doors so he doesnt kill the wrong ones, for someone who is all knowing how is it that he does not know which children are ment to be slain. Righteousness and pefrection can be completed without being religious, you dont need to be a slave to god to do right and lead a perfect life. God says no man is perfect but him so why should perfection even be a case because no one could pass it. What about other religions that people believe in would that count as holiness since they do worship a god? How is it that my life was worst when I relied on gods faith and prayed that he would help me but the minute I cut ties with him my life has been great and fullfilled? Shouldnt he punish me now for not having faith in his ways and word?

 

[ThaChozenWun]

Maybe that is what "god" is or was to them. They didn't understand the terms we use today to describe things.

I understand 100% what your saying and agree.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

1. So him killing babies over their parents issues is okay? If he tells man not to murder why should he murder innocent children. 2. Why should men have to murder sheep and smear blood upon their doors so he doesnt kill the wrong ones, for someone who is all knowing how is it that he does not know which children are ment to be slain.
3.Righteousness and pefrection can be completed without being religious, you dont need to be a slave to god to do right and lead a perfect life.
4. God says no man is perfect but him so why should perfection even be a case because no one could pass it.
5. What about other religions that people believe in would that count as holiness since they do worship a god?
6.How is it that my life was worst when I relied on gods faith and prayed that he would help me but the minute I cut ties with him my life has been great and fullfilled?
7. Shouldnt he punish me now for not having faith in his ways and word?

1. God is the creator. If He made life, He can take life. There is no unrighteousness with God my brother. Pharaoh ordered all the Hebrew males to be thrown into the Nile river. Pharoah was only reaping what he first sowed. This is a universal principle my brother. "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7

2. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11

3. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10-11

4. That's why Jesus Christ came to provide the perfection needed to secure the salvation for the souls of mankind. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

5. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

6. How fulfilling is your life really?

7. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

 

[ThaChozenWun]

1. God is the creator. If He made life, He can take life. There is no unrighteousness with God my brother. Pharaoh ordered all the Hebrew males to be thrown into the Nile river. Pharoah was only reaping what he first sowed. This is a universal principle my brother. "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7

2. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11

3. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10-11

4. That's why Jesus Christ came to provide the perfection needed to secure the salvation for the souls of mankind. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

5. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

6. How fulfilling is your life really?

7. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

1. I understand what happened and that he can take any life he chooses but why innocent children it was not their fault and had nothing to do with them.

2. That doesnt answer the question the question I asked, why did he need blood smeared so he could differenciate which house he would target. He should have known which houses. They didnt kill the animal and smear the blood for atonement during that conflict they did it so he knew who to kill and who not to he should have known the difference no matter what.

3. This was the romans who wrote this the same people who killed Gods son I cant take what they say about God serious as they are the ones who commited the ultimate sin in my book.

4. We are all gods son why would he create a whole new person and go through all that time wasted when he could of chose one of his true sons already on earth to use a his pawn. Jesus was a buddhist his teenage years why so? They do not believe in a god, if he knew god was his father why would he study something that believes in no great creater?

5. He would be the universal god, which means they would still be praying and believing in him, they just recieved the wrong pamphlet, god should have directed these men into the right areas to recieve their information.

6. Im healthy, finacially stable, have a great wife, a great career. I get satisfaction out of donating a good majority of my earnings. What is more fullfilling than that. The only problems I honestly have are issues that dont pertain to me exculisvely. Global Warming, Natural Disasters, this isnt aimed at me but to everyone, if god was angry at me for searching outside of religion for truth then he should have done something to make life painful which he has not.

7. If there was a heaven and I would have to answer to GOD I believe I would get in even without being a believer, for someone who doesnt believe yet commits no real sin and helps out his fellow brothers should recieve forgivness for his curiousity where as a man who murders repeatedly but is forgiven because he has found god is nonsense. Why should a good human be rejected over a man who has done nothing but hurt his fellow people that makes no sense to me.