Does america have a proble with masculinity?

[Plutarch]

t/s posed the question does america has a problem with masculinity....

or rather is there an effort being made to demonize or emasculate men?

i don't believe that to be the case....

I wouldn't know, but I probably don't believe it either.

and I'd argue society still largely caters to white, heterosexual men

American society? If so, that's pretty vague, but yes, I generally agree.

i do believe though that more and more ppl are seeing how our culture's definition of masculinity is deeply flawed and there has been a push to expand on what it means to be a man, which i obviously believe is a good thing

We probably, not surprisingly, disagree, here.

I'm not quite sure what "our culture's definition of masculinity" exactly means. I think masculinity in America has meant and continues to mean many different things, and, like with many things, there have been only a few destructive outliers.

I can see you envisioning some meanings of masculinity as toxic whereas I see those same meanings of masculinity as either mostly natural or mostly innocuous, at least in themselves.

If it's of any relevance, I'm sure you've heard the potential counterpoint that the idea of women having an "instrumental" part in (re)defining masculinity is a bit odd, at best, and impractical, at worst. I don't think that counterpoint is entirely without merit, imo.

considering gender, unlike sex, is malleable and varies across cultures ...there is a possibility for change

I agree, but I wonder at what point does the malleability of gender become infeasible. And whether this change will be be progressive or regressive.

All in all, personally, it doesn't make too much difference to me. Whether men want to dance around in pom poms or run around mean mugging all the time, as long as no laws are violated, I see no problems. The way I see it: Do you, and accept the consequences of doing you; and I'll do me and accept the consequences of doing me.

 

[So ILL]

Of course there is a conspiracy against alpha male on the media trying to faggotise everybody. I want to know what male nigga thought:

"Damn, them skinny jeans look hot, I think I should wear it"

"Damn, gotta do my eyebrows now to stay hot"

"Damn, i betta start twerking so these bishes know what's up"

"Oh shit, that man purse matches with my uggs"...

and still think he's portraying an alpha male - the definition of a real nigga. Nah.

Lmao at "faggotise"

 

[aneed123]

yes first u had feminism infecting everything and now u have anything masculine being negatively viewed as sexist/masaginist in an attempt to boost up homo and female agenda.

 

[aneed123]

There's definitely a push to make men more feminine but I think that largely is the fault of us men. Hear me out...

It's a lot of niggas out here that ain't shit as fathers. That may be a direct result of them having ain't shit dads. All that does is make women the primary role model for boys coming into manhood in single mother homes. A woman can never teach a man to be a man. She'll give him tips on what she considers manhood, which generally tends to either be feminine or way over the top masculine.

With that comes either a Drake type nigga or a nigga that thinks not crying and being hyper aggressive is what manhood means. All bullshit aside, my cousins football team had no men outside of my cousin at practice and at the games. What u think these little boys are going to turn into??

my nigga I work with teens and early adult males.... an effect of not father s and good male role models around is super emotional youth..... the thugs who shoot you cuz u made them mad ass niggas... acting strictly off emotion cuz they being raised by nothin but women.... Its sad.

 

[Koltrain]

Yes. Too many agendas fighting against masculinity.

 

[desertrain10]

t/s posed the question does america has a problem with masculinity....

or rather is there an effort being made to demonize or emasculate men?

i don't believe that to be the case....

I wouldn't know, but I probably don't believe it either.

and I'd argue society still largely caters to white, heterosexual men

American society? If so, that's pretty vague, but yes, I generally agree.

america, yes

vague?

from the ads on tv to politics, white straight men are favored and catered to

do i really need to expound???

i do believe though that more and more ppl are seeing how our culture's definition of masculinity is deeply flawed and there has been a push to expand on what it means to be a man, which i obviously believe is a good thing

We probably, not surprisingly, disagree, here.

I'm not quite sure what "our culture's definition of masculinity" exactly means. I think masculinity in America has meant and continues to mean many different things, and, like with many things, there have been only a few destructive outliers.

I can see you envisioning some meanings of masculinity as toxic whereas I see those same meanings of masculinity as either mostly natural or mostly innocuous, at least in themselves.

If it's of any relevance, I'm sure you've heard the potential counterpoint that the idea of women having an "instrumental" part in (re)defining masculinity is a bit odd, at best, and impractical, at worst. I don't think that counterpoint is entirely without merit, imo.

.

based off popular american culture a big

part of what it means to be a man today is be prideful, to be devoid of all emotions except anger, hyper sexual, hyper aggressive, an authority figure, anti-gay, etc

otherwise you are thought as weak, soft, feminine, etc...the worst things a man can be

and as I was saying earlier men grow up feeling entitled when it comes to women

all of which I'd say is problematic... far from being innocuous or purely testosterone driven...especially when you compare violence here in america to other first world countries

its more specific manifestations include: workaholism and violence. men are responsible for most violent crime and mass shootings

though women are likely to develop depression, men are 2x as likely to kill themselves because depression symptoms in men usually go without being diagnosed or treated

i see it with the push to limit reproductive rights for women; in movies when girls are reduced to being objects to be won; or the many instances men become overly aggressive and overreact when a woman doesn't accept their advances

and it's not necessarily about redifining manhood, its about expanding on what it means to be a man

i'd like to think women should be included/ vocal in this discussion considering the stakes and our influence

considering gender, unlike sex, is malleable and varies across cultures ...there is a possibility for change

I agree, but I wonder at what point does the malleability of gender become infeasible. And whether this change will be be progressive or regressive.

infeasible? expound

and change is evitable, regardless

what it means to be human, let alone what it means to be a man or a woman is ever changing thanks in great part to technological advances

all can we can do is adapt in a way that is progressive for society as a whole

All in all, personally, it doesn't make too much difference to me. Whether men want to dance around in pom poms or run around mean mugging all the time, as long as no laws are violated, I see no problems. The way I see it: Do you, and accept the consequences of doing you; and I'll do me and accept the consequences of doing me.

i mean if you are concerned about crime, you should be alil concerned with the conditioning of young boys and girls

 

[konceptjones]

The assimilation of gay culture and ideologies into mainstream society requires the elimination of the macho/masculine heterosexual male. This is what you all are seeing. We spoke on it at length not long after I joined Tha IC:
http://community.allhiphop.com/discussion/69432/pu-yfication-of-the-man

slept on post

The real directive for this comes from the homosexual agenda. Push societal acceptance of their ways through the media and fashion. Shit is so subliminal sometimes that if you don't know what to look for, you miss it completely. I had a VP let me in on it when I worked for a large marketing firm, how there's this whole push to get the homosexual lifestyle out front and there's ways of marketing to them that are subtle, yet effective.

 

[VulcanRaven]

There's definitely a push to emasculate men.

Even saw a commercial that featured a father teaching his daughter how to shave his legs..............BY SHAVING HIS OWN LEGS with her:


And I thought the commercial with the father doing cheers with his daughter was too far:


Angel Soft just took it to another level.

my daughter wont be no cheerleader..

but i wish a nigga would say somethin bout me playin dressup wit her and our lil tea parties. lmmfao

aint nothin wrong wit pops cheerin wit his daughter..

This explains the King Kong shit now lol

Beta monster fan

 

[CapitalB]

There's definitely a push to emasculate men.

Even saw a commercial that featured a father teaching his daughter how to shave his legs..............BY SHAVING HIS OWN LEGS with her:


And I thought the commercial with the father doing cheers with his daughter was too far:


Angel Soft just took it to another level.

my daughter wont be no cheerleader..

but i wish a nigga would say somethin bout me playin dressup wit her and our lil tea parties. lmmfao

aint nothin wrong wit pops cheerin wit his daughter..

This explains the King Kong shit now lol

Beta monster fan

niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigga please!! hahaha

Godzilla wack cuhz..

his movies are wack..

and he dont pull no bad white bitches!!

 

[Shuffington]

the issue is with our culture's narrow definition of masculinity

and how our boys and men live under this persistent pressure to constantly be proving their manhood and warding off anything considered feminine or emasculating

or they grow up with a sense of entitlement and authority over women’s bodies and agency

my post with be either ignored or buried, but if we are being real (along with a lot of other shit) its one of the big drivers of violence within our communities

I had no intention of getting involved with this thread but I'll add here that the sense of entitlement extends to having a sense of entitlement in general.

Anyone worried about their masculinity or masculinity in general is probably insecure as fuck already.

Word,

I'll add that any male under the impression that their manhood can be taken is highly SUS imo.

 

[Ajackson17]

A beta is the second in line to be Alpha if the old Alpha either dies or gets beaten or kicked out or injured. Basically a Vice-President.

I always wondered about this. I don't know too much about the Greek alphabet, but wouldn't the better term be "omega"? Even though omega sounds tougher than beta, imo.

@Plutarch yes, you are correct. Omegas are the weakest link, but some have definitely became alphas. And usually in wolves and dogs, the alpha usually possess more empathy than everyone. That's the difference between a Beta and an Alpha is usually A to B intelligence, emotional intelligence, and cunning/skills. Beta are like the bouncers. While the alpha is the club owner and the omega is the little nigga like the Penguin in season 1 of Gotham who can get his shit together and rise to the top.

But the problem with Alpha, Beta, Omega and there is another I forget, but it doesn't involve us because we are far more complex and our society doesn't work like that. Social development has progress way further than this, even in Hunter and Gather societies, the elders who were more beat down due to age and experiences were the leaders, so human societies were far more complex than that of canines at that age to even suggest such an hierarchy. To place wisdom and experience and knowledge above strength shows that we are beyond such trivial simplistic characteristics.

 

[goldenja]

Proble?

 

[Plutarch]

america, yes

OK, gotcha. Just wanted to make sure.

vague?

Yes, you don’t think that “American society” is a vague phrase? If not, then *shrugs*

from the ads on tv to politics, white straight men are favored and catered to

Yes, but I believe that a statement like that can easily be overstated, but that perhaps that’s neither here nor there.

do i really need to expound???

It doesn’t matter much to me. If you really want to do so, be my guest.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]

based off popular american culture a big

part of what it means to be a man today is be prideful, to be devoid of all emotions except anger, hyper sexual, hyper aggressive, an authority figure, anti-gay, etc

otherwise you are thought as weak, soft, feminine, etc...the worst things a man can be[/quote]

Eh, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. I think that’s a popular exaggeration.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]and as I was saying earlier men grow up feeling entitled when it comes to women[/quote]

I think I can agree and disagree, but I’m not sure how accurate this generalization is. Do you think woman are generally entitled when it comes to men?

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]

all of which I'd say is problematic... far from being innocuous or purely testosterone driven...especially when you compare violence here in america to other first world countries[/quote]

Toxic masculinity? We disagree here as well, but not completely. I don’t buy the whole “toxic masculinity” argument, and I would more so attribute violence in America to, say, the effects of poverty, long long before I blame “our culture’s narrow definition of masculinity.”

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]its more specific manifestations include: workaholism and violence. men are responsible for most violent crime and mass shootings[/quote]

That seems self-evident, but if your argument is that “our culture’s narrow definition of masculinity” is the reason why men are responsible for most violent crime and mass shootings,” then I remain skeptical.

 

[Plutarch]

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]though women are likely to develop depression, men are 2x as likely to kill themselves because depression symptoms in men usually go without being diagnosed or treated[/quote]

Yes…because men aren’t supposed to be weak? If so, I can agree and disagree. Psychiatric treatment doesn’t seem to be popular among men, somewhat similar with yoga and other “girly stuff.” This seems true.

But is this because of toxic masculinity? I’m not sure. Maybe to a smalle extent? But I’m sure there are other nontoxic, innocuous, and/or natural causes ranging from a sense of independence to distrust (especially among the black community) of (white) physicians.

Perhaps, it’s similar to the reason why most black churches mostly comprise black women rather than black men?

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]i see it with the push to limit reproductive rights for women; in movies when girls are reduced to being objects to be won; or the many instances men become overly aggressive and overreact when a woman doesn't accept their advances[/quote]

But does this not seem to be a part, if not a small and reductive part, of American society. As others just in this thread alone have noted, times have long changed. Many people are against the limiting of reproductive rights for women, whether government or civilian. The “gay agenda” and the “trans agenda” are full in effect. “Softer” (whatever the hell that means) men are increasingly accepted. Hollywood and television is bastion of liberal values. Men who are overly aggressive are shunned upon and even figuratively crucified.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]and it's not necessarily about redifining manhood, its about expanding on what it means to be a man[/quote]

I don’t understand. Those two statements seem to very similar to me. Honestly, I never thought and still don’t think it’s necessary or perhaps even wise. At its most basic level, beyond the rigidity of nature, a “real” man defines himself regardless. At that level, it’s quite simple.

I don’t think we need to come up with a definitive plan to expand what it means to be a man. The plan is already there, and some men like it and go with it, and some don’t and don’t go with it. But I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with the latter.

We still have stay-at-home dads, boyfriends who split the bill with their dates (even though many women hate that [I guess femininity needs some work as well?]), husbands who take their wives’ surname (which is oddly their fathers’ surname), etc. Is it that you simply want more of this? Or do these examples not even apply?

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]i'd like to think women should be included/ vocal in this discussion considering the stakes and our influence[/quote]

I agree. I’m just skeptical of the idea of women dictating to men what it means to be men.

 

[Plutarch]

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]infeasible? Expound[/quote]

I wonder to what extent is gender malleable. I’ve see many people who believe that gender is entirely or mostly a social construct. I don’t ascribe to that belief for perhaps obvious reasons.

The transgender debate – a hot topic today – seems to be relevant. If a man (via sex) decides that he’s a woman (via gender), I wonder how feasible (workable) that theory becomes in practice. Even with surgery, hormone treatment, etc.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]and change is evitable, regardless[/quote]

Evitable or inevitable? If it’s the latter, I agree and never said the opposite.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]what it means to be human, let alone what it means to be a man or a woman is ever changing thanks in great part to technological advances[/quote]

Yes, but nature, although evolving, still remains pretty rigid. I don’t think we should ever forget or downplay nature, lest we regret it.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]all can we can do is adapt in a way that is progressive for society as a whole[/quote]

Yes, that’s the plan.

[quote="desertrain10;c-9684236]i mean if you are concerned about crime, you should be alil concerned with the conditioning of young boys and girls[/quote]

Yes, I am (and not just regarding children but adults as well)…I didn’t say anything to the contrary, right?

I’ll say this though: I’m not into the habit of “forcing” parents (or people in general) what to do and what not to do, if they’re not violating law. I certainly can’t save everyone and don’t plan to do so. People are going to have to learn the hard way, for better or for worse.