Coming soon: our next stage, Homo evolutus.

[whar]

I hold that our distant relative tail and our coccyx are related, and the coccyx vestigial, because of its current structure and the structure of the tail in those distant relatives.

Our coccyx and our relative tail are in the same spot. The tailbone is very similar to the starting portion of the tail in our relatives. The same muscles that exist in us attach to our tailbone attach to theirs.

Factual errors in this thread by Drew

1. Implying that the pelvic floor does not attach in monkeys to the tailbone as it does in human.

2. Pigs are more closely related to humans than chimps.

(For fairness sake I must admit my own factual errors)

1. I stated that Drew posted that Monkeys did not have a pelvic floor. I had misread his position. I was wrong.

Just as a joke lets look at table 1 again

Ok lets go through each of these items that are governed by genes and compare which is closer to humans the baboon or the pig?

1. Period to reproductive maturity. Pig ~6 months ... Baboon ~4 years ... humans ~ 13 years (not advocating sex at this age but a person could become pregnant or get someone pregnant around this age). Winner - Baboon

2. Length of pregnancy. Pig - 114 days ... baboon ~183 days ... humans ~ 280 days. Winner Baboon.

3. Number of offspring. Pig 5-12 ... baboon 1 or 2 ... humans 1 or 2 as well (Octomoms do not count as we are looking for the average number of births not comparing extremes. And high birth counts are usually hit through fertility clinic). Winner Baboon

4. Growth. Pigs - rapid 6 months to full growth. Baboon - Slow 9 years to full growth. Humans slow - 18 years (this is an estimate. Some stop sooner some later). Winner Baboon

5. Size. Pigs - about human size. Baboon - smaller than a human. Finally the pig pulls out a win!

6. Anatomical similarity - Pig - moderately close. Baboon - Close. Winner Baboon.

And the Baboon crushes the pig with an impressive 5-1 score.

 

[Bodhi]

And the Baboon crushes the pig with an impressive 5-1 score.

Not surprisingly. I wonder what Drew has to say about that??

[pigs] are more distantly related to us than... ...the great apes

Hmmm.. interesting conclusion, @Drew_Ali I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Drew_Ali]

Not surprisingly. I wonder what Drew has to say about that??

Nothing.....

The chart comes directly from this site:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3246856/

Which I already posted........

Regardless of @whar's futile attempt to "debunk" the information......................

It is self-evident & established by greater minds than his...............

No one practicing medicine would dare try to transplant organs or cells from ape to human.......

"As pig insulin differs from human insulin by only one amino acid, and pig insulin was administered successfully for the treatment of diabetic patients for decades until recombinant human insulin became available

Remarkably, in 1838 the first corneal xenotransplantation (from a pig) was performed in a patient, whereas the first corneal allograft (human-to-human) was not carried out until more than 65 years later, in 1905."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3246856/

Researchers also discovered several health similarities between humans and pigs. Pigs share some of the same protein abnormalities as humans with obesity, diabetes, dyslexia, Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

Similarly, researchers found that pigs have fewer endogenous retroviruses than many other animals, making pigs an important ally for more complex medical procedures like organ transplants.

"The pig genome is very important, maybe even more important than we once thought," Sang said. "It is very good for biomedical research advancements and it also looks to be a good resource for comparative studies of many other diseases."
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...ilarities-between-humans-and-pigs.aspx?page=2

Although your science will not admit it..........

Swine is the closest relative to humans in the animal kingdom.........

If your evolutionary science is correct.......

You evolved from swine............

 

[Drew_Ali]

Hmmm.. interesting conclusion, @Drew_Ali I wholeheartedly agree.

I knew there was hope for you.....

Now.....

Relax & take notes..............

As I take tokes.....

Of the marijuana smoke...........

 

[whar]

"In other words......

If you "evolved" from any other creature, it is the swine..............

Which is why......

Leviticus 11:7 - 11:8

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.

Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.

All praise is due to Allah.............."

This is my favorite part of this thread.

While I concede I can misconstrue what people intend with their posts this seems like Drew is saying the passage from Leviticus is based on the pigs close association with us. That it is some kind of near cannibalism that makes the pig unclean. I had thought it was because the pig does not chew the cud.

Some south pacific cannibals call human flesh long pig so maybe there is something to it

 

[Drew_Ali]

This is my favorite part of this thread.

Thank me later...........

 

[Bodhi]

Swine is the closest relative to humans in the animal kingdom.........

[pigs] are more distantly related to us than... ...the great apes

Which one is it??

 

[Drew_Ali]

Which one is it??

I though you finally caught up with the rest of the class.........

This.......

Swine is the closest relative to humans in the animal kingdom.........

@whar & @oceanic....

I am heading out of town for the weekend.......

I might have time to respond.......

However

If I cannot..........

Your assignments are to re-group your arguments & be ready to cover new material next week......

 

[Bodhi]

Swine is the closest relative to humans in the animal kingdom.........

Incorrect.

Bonobos Join Chimps as Closest Human Relatives
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/06/bonobo-genome-sequenced.html

 

[Bodhi]

Chimpanzees are so closely related to humans that they should properly be considered as members of the human family, according to new genetic research.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3042781.stm

 

[Drew_Ali]

LOL.....

"blanket comparisons of all DNA sequences between species are not very meaningful,"

 

[Bodhi]

As a biostatistician with a long-standing interest in human origins, I was eager to line up the human DNA sequence next to that of our closest living relative and take stock. A humbling truth emerged: our DNA blueprints are nearly 99 percent identical to [the chimpanzee]. That is, of the three billion letters that make up the human genome, only 15 million of them—less than 1 percent—have changed in the six million years or so since the human and chimp lineages diverged.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-makes-us-human

 

[Bodhi]

LOL.....

You forgot to read the rest:

Parts of the genome that don't encode proteins tend to evolve rapidly, so you can have significant regions of the genome where there's no discernible similarity between species, says Moran. This means many sequences will not line up when you compare genomes between species.

And the further away two species are on the evolutionary tree, the greater the difference.

"If we compare really closely related species, like a human and chimpanzee, we can still see the similarity between these rapidly changing sequences. If you move further away to the more distantly related pig, so many changes in the DNA will have occurred that it is no longer possible to recognise that the sequences were ever similar.

"Depending upon what it is that you are comparing you can say 'Yes, there's a very high degree of similarity, for example between a human and a pig protein coding sequence', but if you compare rapidly evolving non-coding sequences from a similar location in the genome, you may not be able to recognise any similarity at all.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/05/03/2887206.htm

 

[Drew_Ali]

Researchers discover health similarities between humans and pigs
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20...ilarities-between-humans-and-pigs.aspx?page=2

Researchers also discovered several health similarities between humans and pigs. Pigs share some of the same protein abnormalities as humans with obesity, diabetes, dyslexia, Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

Similarly, researchers found that pigs have fewer endogenous retroviruses than many other animals, making pigs an important ally for more complex medical procedures like organ transplants.

"The pig genome is very important, maybe even more important than we once thought," Sang said. "It is very good for biomedical research advancements and it also looks to be a good resource for comparative studies of many other diseases."

At Kansas State University the sequenced pig genome stands to benefit agricultural, food animal and veterinary medicine research.

"For many years the pig has been one of the best models for human physiology and has been used extensively because of that,"

 

[Bodhi]

Sorry, I didn't read anywhere in the article that pigs are more closely related to humans than chimps and bonobos. Maybe you can help me out in finding that information, GA state graduate.

 

[Drew_Ali]

Pig geneticists go the whole hog

Genome will benefit farmers and medical researchers.

Pig models are now being developed for other common conditions, including Alzheimer’s disease, cancer and muscular dystrophy. This work will be enriched by the discovery, reported in the genome paper, of 112 gene variants that might be involved in human diseases. Knowledge of the genome is also allowing scientists to try to engineer pigs that could be the source of organs, including heart and liver, for human patients. Pig organs are roughly the right size, and researchers hope to create transgenic pigs carrying genes that deceive the immune system of recipients into not rejecting the transplants.

 

[Drew_Ali]

"blanket comparisons of all DNA sequences between species are not very meaningful,"

 

[whar]

"No one practicing medicine would dare try to transplant organs or cells from ape to human......."

Of course you're right :eyeroll:
http://apps.engr.utexas.edu/ethics/organTransplant/nihxeno1.cfm

"The easiest way to deal with immune-system rejection of xenotransplants would be to sidestep them—to use organs from the animal that is the closest possible to human beings. That, of course, is the chimpanzee, whose genome is more than 98 percent identical with the human genome.

But chimpanzees are an endangered species. They are costly to raise, and they grow slowly to adulthood. Chimpanzees may also harbor unknown viruses that do them no harm but that might cause devastating diseases in humans—diseases that might be transmitted to other people. For example, researchers have strong evidence that HIV crossed into humans from chimps during the first half of this century. The term for such a species leap is zoonosis, and the term that is becoming accepted for an animal-to-human leap because of a xenotransplant is, naturally, xenozoonosis.

Most xenotransplantation researchers agree that chimpanzees are not suitable organ donors. Researchers also agree that other “higher” nonhuman primates such as baboons are out, too. Although organs from these animals are less likely than those of more distant species to set off hyperacute rejection, they, too, harbor microorganisms that might leap to humans easily and with dangerous consequences. And like chimpanzees, baboons are costly to raise and, in some cases, suffer from population decline.

Strange as it may sound, the animal that is emerging as the most likely source of transplantable organs is the pig. Pigs’ organs are the right size. The animals are highly domesticated, they have large litters, and they grow quickly to maturity. They can be raised in sterile environments, which would reduce the likelihood of transmission of at least some pig diseases to humans. Many researchers, however, still worry about viruses that are unknown or that have become part of the animals’ genome and cannot be dislodged.

Unfortunately, pig organs have molecular characteristics that make the human immune system attack mercilessly. But there may be ways around that, and researchers are exploring at least two quite different approaches. "

 

[Drew_Ali]

Sorry, I didn't read anywhere in the article that pigs are more closely related to humans than chimps and bonobos. Maybe you can help me out in finding that information, GA state graduate.

"For many years the pig has been one of the best models for human physiology and has been used extensively because of that,"

@whar....

Kind of like the chart already illustrated........

 

[Drew_Ali]

GA state graduate.

No need for congratulations............

All praise is due to Allah............