KneeGro_DuperMan
New member
For me it was between Big O & The Dream. That rounds out my personal 5.
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Big O
Hakeem
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Big O
Hakeem
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Cheap Seats Top 10 Players of All Time (The NBA Edition) #4 Player in NBA History
af.r.i.c.a.
New member
MSG Da Mecca;7216243 said:For me it was between Big O & The Dream. That rounds out my personal 5.
MJ
Kareem
Bird
Big O
Hakeem
That's an interesting 5. Mines would be
MJ
Jabbar
Magic
Russell
Lebron(assuming he plays at this level for 3-5 more years)
KneeGro_DuperMan
New member
If Lebron get a ring on Cleveland, he's definitely top 5 on my list. Somebody gotta go.
Hakeem showed me that if Jordan didn't exist, it may have been Dream's league. Jordan chose to retire. The show must go on & Dream basically said "It's all me, all me for real"
Hakeem showed me that if Jordan didn't exist, it may have been Dream's league. Jordan chose to retire. The show must go on & Dream basically said "It's all me, all me for real"
Smh @ Russell leading
Head-to-Head numbers:
Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell's team won 88, Wilt's teams won 74. (14 game difference)
In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg, Russell averaged 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg
Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50+ point games against Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30+ point games against Wilt.
Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.
Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell's Celtics... (Russell's Celtics were 10-0 in game 7s during his career).
The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points
(begin the teammate argument because head-to-head is a no-contest)
Russell was limited offensively, Wilt limitless
playing the same role on the boards (i.e. primary rebounder except Wilt was also primary offense and Russell wasnt which means he should have been available for more o-boards to no avail) Chamberlain more or leass swept him on rebounding titles (like 9 of the 11 seasons they were both active Wilt lead the league in rebounding).
passing? who was the only center in the history of the association to lead the league in assists?(and he almost did it twice) - not Bill Russell
Russel's intangibles were great no doubt but he had lots of hall of fame bound team-mates on a dynasty team run by the best coach/gm of his era running a system he fit into perfectly
Wilt easy
Head-to-Head numbers:
Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell's team won 88, Wilt's teams won 74. (14 game difference)
In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg, Russell averaged 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg
Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50+ point games against Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30+ point games against Wilt.
Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.
Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell's Celtics... (Russell's Celtics were 10-0 in game 7s during his career).
The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points
(begin the teammate argument because head-to-head is a no-contest)
Russell was limited offensively, Wilt limitless
playing the same role on the boards (i.e. primary rebounder except Wilt was also primary offense and Russell wasnt which means he should have been available for more o-boards to no avail) Chamberlain more or leass swept him on rebounding titles (like 9 of the 11 seasons they were both active Wilt lead the league in rebounding).
passing? who was the only center in the history of the association to lead the league in assists?(and he almost did it twice) - not Bill Russell
Russel's intangibles were great no doubt but he had lots of hall of fame bound team-mates on a dynasty team run by the best coach/gm of his era running a system he fit into perfectly
Wilt easy
af.r.i.c.a.
New member
What the fuck happened to the thread title?
af.r.i.c.a.
New member
.
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blu197;7216704 said:Smh @ Russell leading
Head-to-Head numbers:
Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell's team won 88, Wilt's teams won 74. (14 game difference)
In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg, Russell averaged 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg
Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50+ point games against Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30+ point games against Wilt.
Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.
Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell's Celtics... (Russell's Celtics were 10-0 in game 7s during his career).
The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points
(begin the teammate argument because head-to-head is a no-contest)
Russell was limited offensively, Wilt limitless
playing the same role on the boards (i.e. primary rebounder except Wilt was also primary offense and Russell wasnt which means he should have been available for more o-boards to no avail) Chamberlain more or leass swept him on rebounding titles (like 9 of the 11 seasons they were both active Wilt lead the league in rebounding).
passing? who was the only center in the history of the association to lead the league in assists?(and he almost did it twice) - not Bill Russell
Russel's intangibles were great no doubt but he had lots of hall of fame bound team-mates on a dynasty team run by the best coach/gm of his era running a system he fit into perfectly
Wilt easy
Hard to argue with this, for those voting Bill Russell
its....JOHN B
New member
11 ships>>>padded stats, and they didn't start recording blocks and steals till after Russell was done or he would be the all time leader
its....JOHN B
New member
coop9889;7217006 said:blu197;7216704 said:Smh @ Russell leading
Head-to-Head numbers:
Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell's team won 88, Wilt's teams won 74. (14 game difference)
In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg, Russell averaged 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg
Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50+ point games against Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30+ point games against Wilt.
Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell, and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.
Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell's Celtics... (Russell's Celtics were 10-0 in game 7s during his career).
The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points
(begin the teammate argument because head-to-head is a no-contest)
Russell was limited offensively, Wilt limitless
playing the same role on the boards (i.e. primary rebounder except Wilt was also primary offense and Russell wasnt which means he should have been available for more o-boards to no avail) Chamberlain more or leass swept him on rebounding titles (like 9 of the 11 seasons they were both active Wilt lead the league in rebounding).
passing? who was the only center in the history of the association to lead the league in assists?(and he almost did it twice) - not Bill Russell
Russel's intangibles were great no doubt but he had lots of hall of fame bound team-mates on a dynasty team run by the best coach/gm of his era running a system he fit into perfectly
Wilt easy
Hard to argue with this, for those voting Bill Russell
It's pretty easy actually, shout out to Blu though, killin these threads
One of the defining qualities of Bill Russell was his unfailing dedication to his team. From his rookie year until his last season, he would, without exception, throw up in the locker room before big games. This is a sign of his humility, that he never took victory for granted, and remained modest throughout his career. Russell's game reflected this. He was an unparalleled shot blocker, who specialized in tipping passes to his teammates to start fast breaks. He was a phenomenal rebounder, averaging 22.5 for his career (second only to Chamberlain). He extracted the most from each of his teammates, resulting in championship after championship.
On the other hand, Wilt Chamberlain, while undoubtedly hugely talented, was considered to be a coach's nightmare, and a drain in the locker room. He was traded twice in his career, after demanding to be allowed to leave. He forced out several coaches over his 14 year career. He clashed with Lakers coach Butch Van Breda Kolff during the 1969 Finals against Russell's Celtics, and was benched in the last six minutes of a close Game 7. Chamberlain always lacked the winning gene that was so much an integral part of Bill Russell.
its....JOHN B
New member
The basketball adage "Defense wins championships" has become one of the most commonly used phrases in the sport. This dates back to Bill Russell and his Celtics teams. Russell is generally considered to be among the greatest defensive players ever, and perhaps the greatest defensive center of all time. He played in an era where blocks and steals were not counted, so statistical proof of his dominance is lacking. However, testimonials from that era agree on his defensive supremacy. As mentioned in a previous slide, the Celtics of the late '50s and '60s thrived on the four point swings which were started by Russell's tips.
Chamberlain, too, was a prolific shot blocker, and was a decent defensive player in his own right. However, this had more to do with his status as the only 7-footer in the league than with any particular defensive aptitude. Wilt's blocks were not tips, either; they were volleyball swats that ended up in the third row. While this was certainly entertaining for the crowd, it did not help his team as much as it could.
Chamberlain, too, was a prolific shot blocker, and was a decent defensive player in his own right. However, this had more to do with his status as the only 7-footer in the league than with any particular defensive aptitude. Wilt's blocks were not tips, either; they were volleyball swats that ended up in the third row. While this was certainly entertaining for the crowd, it did not help his team as much as it could.
its....JOHN B
New member
Russell's entire being was focused on one thing: winning, and winning often. He was the greatest winner in North American professional team sports, and he accomplished this by forgoing the quest for statistics that so consumed Chamberlain. Russell didn't care for glory or for records; he lived to crush his opponent and to win. Period.
On the other hand, Wilt was obsessed with statistical superiority, which he certainly achieved. He averaged 50.4 points per game in the 1961-62 season, a number that no one has even come close to matching since. One would think that the MVP for that season would be locked up for Chamberlain; however, it went to Russell, who averaged fewer than 19 PPG, but who won 11 more games that year. Wilt, for reasons known only to him, had an obsession with never fouling out of a game, dating back to his high school days. Therefore, he would quit on his team as soon as he was called for his fourth foul. Everyone knew this, so they stopped guarding him in these situations. The famous "Havlicek stole the ball" game would never have happened, except that John Havlicek knew that Wilt would never be passed to, so he guarded Chet Walker instead. One year, Wilt decided that he would lead the league in assists, which he accomplished. He always had the skill to lead the league in assists, he just never cared about setting up his teammates until he realized that assists, too, were a statistic he could dominate. Even then, he yelled at his teammates for missing shots, as he would not be credited for an assist. This was perhaps the fundamental difference between Russell and Chamberlain.
On the other hand, Wilt was obsessed with statistical superiority, which he certainly achieved. He averaged 50.4 points per game in the 1961-62 season, a number that no one has even come close to matching since. One would think that the MVP for that season would be locked up for Chamberlain; however, it went to Russell, who averaged fewer than 19 PPG, but who won 11 more games that year. Wilt, for reasons known only to him, had an obsession with never fouling out of a game, dating back to his high school days. Therefore, he would quit on his team as soon as he was called for his fourth foul. Everyone knew this, so they stopped guarding him in these situations. The famous "Havlicek stole the ball" game would never have happened, except that John Havlicek knew that Wilt would never be passed to, so he guarded Chet Walker instead. One year, Wilt decided that he would lead the league in assists, which he accomplished. He always had the skill to lead the league in assists, he just never cared about setting up his teammates until he realized that assists, too, were a statistic he could dominate. Even then, he yelled at his teammates for missing shots, as he would not be credited for an assist. This was perhaps the fundamental difference between Russell and Chamberlain.
its....JOHN B
New member
13 seasons. 12 Finals appearances. 11 Championships. eight straight rings. It does not get much better than that. Russell was the consummate winner, ending his career with more rings than he could fit on both hands. He played so well when it mattered that the NBA named the Finals MVP trophy after him. This is really the only argument that matters, in the end. The NBA is about winning championships, and no one did it better than Bill Russell.
Chamberlain won two rings, in 1967 and 1972. The first of these came after a season in which Wilt was finally willing to trust his teammates, as well as subscribing to a defense-first mentality. The second was with a loaded Lakers team stacked with Hall of Famers, and it was after Russell retired. It is no coincidence that Wilt's greatest success came when he bought into the the way of playing that Russell had been showcasing for years.
Chamberlain won two rings, in 1967 and 1972. The first of these came after a season in which Wilt was finally willing to trust his teammates, as well as subscribing to a defense-first mentality. The second was with a loaded Lakers team stacked with Hall of Famers, and it was after Russell retired. It is no coincidence that Wilt's greatest success came when he bought into the the way of playing that Russell had been showcasing for years.
its....JOHN B
New member
Stats tell a smidget of the whole story, it's like saying Kevin Love is better than Duncan right now, yea it's a little extreme but go find that best power forward in the game thread (where Africa didn't even mention Duncan...again) people actually vote Love because of stats, but who was holding up the trophy at the end?
its....JOHN B
New member
I should give up trying to get Russell in anyway, any list where he's not at least top 3 is disgusting
The only criteria that benefits Russell against Wilt is rings and nothing else.
Yes, Russell is the greatest winner in NBA history, but if that's the criteria that should be followed, we should just appoint Russ as the GOAT and be done with it (for no player will ever win as much as he did).
They were comparable rebounders and defenders, but Russell was a much worse offensive player. As a center in that era he wasn't even a .450FG% player.
As great as Russell was, he was somewhat overated. His MVP awards were suspect, winning it in 61-62 putting up 18.9/23.6 the year Wilt went for 50.4/27.2 AND Oscar going for 30.9/12.5/11.4? C'mon bruh..
And what about when Wilt was equalling him in rebounds and STILL putting up TWENTY MORE ppg?
I don't wanna diss Russell, b/c i respect dude and what he did on the hardwood. But he is not on Wilt's level.... Wilt vs Kareem is the real debate b/c they were dominate on BOTH sides of the ball
Yes, Russell is the greatest winner in NBA history, but if that's the criteria that should be followed, we should just appoint Russ as the GOAT and be done with it (for no player will ever win as much as he did).
They were comparable rebounders and defenders, but Russell was a much worse offensive player. As a center in that era he wasn't even a .450FG% player.
As great as Russell was, he was somewhat overated. His MVP awards were suspect, winning it in 61-62 putting up 18.9/23.6 the year Wilt went for 50.4/27.2 AND Oscar going for 30.9/12.5/11.4? C'mon bruh..
And what about when Wilt was equalling him in rebounds and STILL putting up TWENTY MORE ppg?
I don't wanna diss Russell, b/c i respect dude and what he did on the hardwood. But he is not on Wilt's level.... Wilt vs Kareem is the real debate b/c they were dominate on BOTH sides of the ball
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af.r.i.c.a.
New member
its....JOHN B;7217163 said:13 seasons. 12 Finals appearances. 11 Championships. eight straight rings. It does not get much better than that. Russell was the consummate winner, ending his career with more rings than he could fit on both hands. He played so well when it mattered that the NBA named the Finals MVP trophy after him. This is really the only argument that matters, in the end. The NBA is about winning championships, and no one did it better than Bill Russell.
Chamberlain won two rings, in 1967 and 1972. The first of these came after a season in which Wilt was finally willing to trust his teammates, as well as subscribing to a defense-first mentality. The second was with a loaded Lakers team stacked with Hall of Famers, and it was after Russell retired. It is no coincidence that Wilt's greatest success came when he bought into the the way of playing that Russell had been showcasing for years.
Nigga.... did you type all that shit or copy and paste it? props either way lol.
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its....JOHN B
New member
Copy and pasted it b wtf? Lol, I wasn't there, neither was blu, for him to be saying some shit like Russell wasn't on Wilt's level because he's looking at stats makes me want to slap him
joeyfkncrakk
New member
I'm going with Kobe Bryant, biased opinion not included......
I'm not going to go that statistical route..... Kobe is top 5 in my book, no player before Kobe unnamed MJ has taken the nBa by storm as him..... Kobe Bryant is a Jordan disciple we all know, but the man did all you need to do on the grandest stage.... Proving all wrong time after time again, going thru every phase imaginable in 1's career while achieving the highest success year after year, recrafting and innovating his game each year while already being at the top of his game.... CLUTCH efforts again and again in true pressure packed moments..... For Kobe to even be in the discussion with MJ should rise him over all damn near.... The hardest working player of all time, hardest training player, hardest practice player.... No player has ever had as much Heart as Kobe in the post MJ era, not even your King.... Kobe deserves it because he left his blood, sweat, and tears on that hardwood while achieving Mass greatness... Call him what you will' but he ain't ever been called a loser
I'm not going to go that statistical route..... Kobe is top 5 in my book, no player before Kobe unnamed MJ has taken the nBa by storm as him..... Kobe Bryant is a Jordan disciple we all know, but the man did all you need to do on the grandest stage.... Proving all wrong time after time again, going thru every phase imaginable in 1's career while achieving the highest success year after year, recrafting and innovating his game each year while already being at the top of his game.... CLUTCH efforts again and again in true pressure packed moments..... For Kobe to even be in the discussion with MJ should rise him over all damn near.... The hardest working player of all time, hardest training player, hardest practice player.... No player has ever had as much Heart as Kobe in the post MJ era, not even your King.... Kobe deserves it because he left his blood, sweat, and tears on that hardwood while achieving Mass greatness... Call him what you will' but he ain't ever been called a loser
