Buddhist 3 Marks of Existence and Analysis of the Soul Theory

[Bodhi]

IMO it is difficult to reconcile supernatural beliefs like the soul theory with Buddhism given that the teaching of no soul and impermanence exist.

 

[ILL_Anvers]

Thanks for the info bruh, definitely gonna look into it some more.

 

[ILL_Anvers]

@ILL_Anvers

What kind of supernatural beliefs have you come across?

My guide in Chiangmai was a thai buddhist and sometimes he would talk about certain spirits (devas maybe?) and how you can get in touch with them or feel them and stuff like that. Also at the temples there were some things going on that looked like religious rituals involving prayer and such. (not the monks though, they were just meditating most of the time)

They were regular thai people, they seem to have some (as you said) set of supernatural beliefs along with the fundamentals of buddhism.

 

[Bodhi]

No problem brother man. Check the links and read those two books. If you have any other questions, let me know.

 

[Bodhi]

My guide in Chiangmai was a thai buddhist and sometimes he would talk about certain spirits (devas maybe?) and how you can get in touch with them or feel them and stuff like that.

@ILL_Anvers

Devas in the sense of spirits and supernatural beings possessing supernatural abilities are originally from the Hindu religion. A lot of terminology in the Buddhist tradition is also found in Hinduism, but in Buddhism the terms oftentimes denote something slightly or either entirely different; remember that Hinduism predates Buddhism. Both religions were born in India and the language was for the most part the same. The meaning is what you want to pay attention to and be careful of so as not to become confused. For example, in Hinduism, karma relates to an immortal soul but in Buddhism, there is no immortal soul so the term karma relates to something different. In the case of devas, Buddhism says that they mortal, limited beings, not supernatural entities.

Also remember that the Buddhist scriptures were not handwritten by the Buddha himself but were reported by his followers. The Bhikkhus later transcribed the teachings for the Sangha. The difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism does not claim to be inerrant; misreporting happened. There are examples of such in the texts themselves and it is possible that misreporting made its way into the scripture without forewarning. The Buddhist cannot always accept what is said in the texts to be the words of Siddhartha Gautama.

The major teachings of Buddhism are those which all schools and branches of the tradition agree on and are generally accepted to be the true teaching of Gautama, for example The 4 Noble Truths and The Eightfold Path, The 3 Marks of Existence, etc. Everything else is to be taken with a grain of salt, imo. The Buddha said not to believe in a thing just because it was said but rather to test the teachings for yourself. What works for you and is beneficial, keep to it. What is not beneficial, abandon it.

 

[Bodhi]

Also at the temples there were some things going on that looked like religious rituals involving prayer and such. (not the monks though, they were just meditating most of the time)

They were regular thai people, they seem to have some (as you said) set of supernatural beliefs along with the fundamentals of buddhism.

This is an excerpt from the book What The Buddha Taught that answers your comment nicely so I wont reply with my own words. I'll just quote the author:

From this brief account of the [Eightfold] Path, one may see that it is a way of life to be

followed, practised and developed by each individual. It is selfdisciple in body,

word and mind, self-development and selfpurification. It has nothing to do with

belief, prayer, worship or ceremony. In that sense, it has nothing which may

popularly be called 'religious'. It is a Path leading to the realization of Ultimate

Reality, to complete freedom, happiness and peace through moral, spiritual and

intellectual perfection.

In Buddhist countries there are simple and beautiful customs and ceremonies

on religious occasions. They have little to do with the real Path. But they have their

value in satisfying certain religious emotions and the needs of those who are less

advanced, and helping them gradually along the Path.

https://sites.google.com/site/rahulawhatthebuddha/home

 

[Bodhi]

DUKKHA/NIBANNA

The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. The first truth is that of dukkha, or suffering; dissatisfaction. This means that with deluded minds, beings suffer. Everything is impermanent including our being; as mortals, we are subject to birth and death and are susceptible to physical and psychological suffering.

The second truth is the truth of the origin of suffering and the third truth is the truth of the cessation of suffering. The origin of suffering is attachment; the human attempt to apply permanence in an impermanent world. Many people place demands and expectations on their lives and suggest that they would give up on life or that their lives would have no meaning if life did not meet their demands.

The Buddha recommends that we live in the moment. This is mindfulness. The Eightfold path includes right mindfulness. Mindfulness includes correct awareness to things as they are without delusion, ignorance, aversion and the five hindrances: craving/sensual desire, ill will, restlessness/anxiety, doubt, and sloth. It is tied to right concentration and obviously right view. It is focus. It is without attachment. Direct experience > concepts.

The cessation of suffering is found in the fourth noble truth, the path to the cessation. That path is the Eightfold path which is:

1. Right View

2. Right Intention

3. Right Speech

4. Right Action

5. Right Livelihood

6. Right Effort

7. Right Mindfulness

8. Right Concentration

Walking the path leads to Nibbana, or the eradication of suffering; perfect enlightenment and liberation; the ultimate truth.

The Buddha taught two truths: relative truth and ultimate truth.

Suffering is not objective. It depends largely

on the way you perceive. There are things that cause you to suffer

but do not cause others to suffer. There are things that bring you joy

but do not bring others joy. The Four Noble Truths were presented

by the Buddha as relative truth to help you enter the door of practice,

but they are not his highest teaching. With the eyes of interbeing we

can always reconcile the Two Truths. When we see, comprehend,

and touch the nature of interbeing, we see the Buddha.

All conditioned things are impermanent.

They are phenomena, subject to birth and death.

When birth and death no longer are,

the complete silencing is joy.

This verse (gatha) was spoken by the Buddha shortly before his

death. The first two lines express relative truth, while the third and

fourth lines express absolute truth. "All conditioned things" includes

physical, physiological, and psychological phenomena. "Complete

silencing" means nirvana, the extinction of all concepts.

Suffering depends on consciousness and consciousness is subjectivity. But suffering, like all things in the universe is conditioned. This is relative truth. Suffering is brought into being by many causes and conditions, which seperately, themselves, are not suffering itself.

 

[Bodhi]

But suffering and happiness are not two seperate things. They are opposites that depend on each other, as do hot and cold, light and dark, up and down etc. This is relative truth. It is also expressed in Taoism and the Hermetic philosophy. Dukkha and joy/happiness are the same way. This is why the first noble truth of Buddhist philosophy is dukkha. The spiritual path to enlightenment begins with reflection; the act of looking into our suffering, examining it, analyzing it, understanding it and liberating ourselves from it.

Each of these truths entails a duty: stress is to be comprehended, the origination of stress abandoned, the cessation of stress realized, and the path to the cessation of stress developed. When all of these duties have been fully performed, the mind gains total release.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/truths.html

Therefore, something and nothing give birth to one another.

Difficult and easy complete one another.

Long and short fashion one another.

High and low arise from one another.

Notes and tones harmonise with one another.

Front and back follow one another.

The great Fourth Hermetic Principle - the Principle of Polarity embodies the truth that all manifested things have "two sides"; "two aspects"; "two poles"; a "pair of opposites," with manifold degrees between the two extremes.

The Hermetic Teachings are to the effect that the difference between things seemingly diametrically opposed to each other is merely a matter of degree.

Heat and Cold are identical in nature, the differences being merely a matter of degrees. The thermometer shows many degrees of temperature, the lowest pole being called "cold," and the highest "heat." Between these two poles are many degrees of "heat" or "cold," call them either and you are equally correct. The higher of two degrees is always "warmer," while the lower is always "colder." There is no absolute standard-all is a matter of degree. There is no place on the thermometer where heat ceases and cold begins. It is all a matter of higher or lower vibrations. The very terms "high" and "low," which we are compelled to use, are but poles of the same thing-the terms are relative. So with "East and West" - travel around the world in an eastward direction, and you reach a point which is called west at your starting point, and you return from that westward point. Travel far enough North, and you will find yourself traveling South, or vice versa.

Light and Darkness are poles of the same thing, with many degrees between them. The musical scale is the same - starting with "C" you move upward until you reach another "C" and so on, the differences between the two ends of the board being the same, with many degrees between the two extremes. The scale of color is the same-higher and lower vibrations being the only difference between high violet and low red. Large and Small are relative. So are Noise and Quiet; Hard and Soft follow the rule. Likewise Sharp and Dull. Positive and Negative are two poles of the same thing, with countless degrees between them.

Good and Bad are not absolute - we call one end of the scale Good and the other Bad, or one end Good and the other Evil, according to the use of the terms. A thing is "less good" than the thing higher in the scale; but that "less good" thing, in turn, is "more good" than the thing next below it - and so on, the "more or less" being regulated by the position on the scale.

And so it is on the Mental Plane. "Love and. Hate" are generally regarded as being things diametrically opposed to each other; entirely different; unreconcilable. But we apply the Principle of Polarity; we find that there is no such thing as Absolute Love or Absolute Hate, as distinguished from each other. The two are merely terms applied to the two poles of the same thing. Beginning at any point of the scale we find "more love," or "less hate," as we ascend the scale; and "more hate" or "less love" as we descend this being true no matter from what point, high or low, we may start. There are degrees of Love and Hate, and there is a middle point where "Like and Dislike" become so faint that it is difficult to distinguish between them. Courage and Fear come under the same rule. The Pairs of Opposites exist everywhere. Where you find one thing you find its opposite-the two poles.

 

[Bodhi]

Upajjhatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html

"There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?

"'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

"'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ...

"'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ...

"'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ...

"'I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

"These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging'? There are beings who are intoxicated with a [typical] youth's intoxication with youth. Because of that intoxication with youth, they conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that youth's intoxication with youth will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness'? There are beings who are intoxicated with a [typical] healthy person's intoxication with health. Because of that intoxication with health, they conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that healthy person's intoxication with health will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death'? There are beings who are intoxicated with a [typical] living person's intoxication with life. Because of that intoxication with life, they conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that living person's intoxication with life will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me'? There are beings who feel desire and passion for the things they find dear and appealing. Because of that passion, they conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that desire and passion for the things they find dear and appealing will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"Now, a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one subject to aging, who has not gone beyond aging. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed.

"Further, a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one subject to illness, who has not gone beyond illness.'... 'I am not the only one subject to death, who has not gone beyond death.'... 'I am not the only one who will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.'...

"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."

 

[Bodhi]

All conditioned things are impermanent —

when one sees this with wisdom,

one turns away from suffering.

This is the path to purification.

All conditioned things are unsatisfactory —

when one sees this with wisdom,

one turns away from suffering.

This is the path to purification.

All things are not-self —

when one sees this with wisdom,

one turns away from suffering.

This is the path to purification.

Chapt. 20; The Path; Verses 277-279
http://thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada-20.html

 

[forum_admin]

Question:

What is life without suffering? To experience suffering is to live; among others states of being. In actuality life is an experience so why attempt rid oneself of suffering absolutely. Absolute anything is just a concept or product of the mind in psychic reality. There can be no impermanence without the cycle itself. Which includes some sort of suffering. Correction of the mind to adjust to the experience is key in my opinion.

Also which buddha are you referring to when you say "The Buddha" ? and why do you consider him as "The"?

 

[Bodhi]

Question:

What is life without suffering? To experience suffering is to live; among others states of being. In actuality life is an experience so why attempt rid oneself of suffering absolutely. Absolute anything is just a concept or product of the mind in psychic reality. There can be no impermanence without the cycle itself. Which includes some sort of suffering. Correction of the mind to adjust to the experience is key in my opinion.

Also which buddha are you referring to when you say "The Buddha" ? and why do you consider him as "The"?

You are right; correction of the mind is key and that is what Buddhism teaches. The Buddha taught that phenomena are

impermanent and that human suffering arises from the mind's attempts to apply permanence to the impermanent reality. Mindfulness is the goal; to realize reality as it is. It is about finding peace and tranquility within the constant change that we experience. In other words, non-attachment.

Siddhartha Gautama, the man who taught the dhamma.

 

[forum_admin]

I agree with you Mindfulness or Consciousness is a key. However reality itself IS permanent including the various cycles or changes.. which includes birth and death you may call this Samsara. There are various facets that transition from one phase to another. The inability to adjust along with the cycle is what adds to psychic illness which is in conjunction with what you stated.

Siddhartha Gautama is classified as the 27th "Buddha". IMHO classifying him as "The Buddha" is a misnomer. A more specific title for Siddhartha would be "Shakyamuni" or sage of the Sakyas Clan. Buddha simply means enlightened being of a particular ERA. In fact "The Dhamma" or in sanskrit "The Dharma" is a misnomer as well. Dharma which in some way similar to "Tao" or "Dao" simply means conformity to a general or specific way. We can equate this "way" to righteousness but that is another discussion. A more truthful name for his system is A DHARMA.

 

[Bodhi]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

The cycle itself is a mental construct that depends on your consciousness; it consists of impermanent phenomena that, alone, are not enduring. Reality is a chain of cause and effect. Nothing is permanent but change yet change is not a "thing".

True, Gautama is not the first nor the last buddha. Buddha is a title, not a name. Most of the suttas are attributed to him and his students. If you go by Buddhist tradition, he was the last Buddha to espouse the teaching in times of spiritual darkness. Thus he is the Buddha until the next Buddha revives the teaching again.

 

[Bodhi]

We say the dhamma because it is the buddhist dhamma; there is only one dhamma which is the Buddhist practice.

 

[forum_admin]

There are countless cycles that all living entities experience. These changes rather perceived or not to some degree influence physical or psychic change in the being of sentient. Reality is and encompasses all perceived and unperceived. Though cycles are not understood absolutely they are experienced through the senses in sanskrit vedic thinkers would call these the "Indriyas".

However let me ask you does birth, aging and death and rebirth exist? I am not referencing any notion regarding reincarnation.

 

[Bodhi]

Though cycles are not understood absolutely they are experienced through the senses in sanskrit vedic thinkers would call these the "Indriyas".

yes..

However let me ask you does birth, aging and death and rebirth exist? I am not referencing any notion regarding reincarnation.

Yes. However, as you've implied, rebirth in the Buddhist teaching does not refer to the transmigration of a soul. It is, rather, as physics explains, the conservation of energy.

 

[forum_admin]

True S.Gautama did not really make his stance on the soul so I agree with you. In respects to Birth, Aging, Death would it be wrong to say that it happens at regular intervals?

 

[Bodhi]

His stance was made clear as demonstrated in this thread.

I wouldn't say it happens at regular intervals. No two ppl live the same life.

 

[forum_admin]

I am not asking if two people live the same life. I am asking does every living being on earth experience some sort of Birth, Aging, Death. By regular I mean familiar..