Born WITH sin?

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Do you believe in free will DoU?

Of course. Nobody forced me to type this message to you. I choose too.

 

[VIBE]

Of course. Nobody forced me to type this message to you. I choose too.

Okay, so you don't believe in pre-destination. Good.

So if we're born with sin, we have no option but TO sin. Correct? It's already in us so we don't have a choice.

See, the bible states otherwise.

The bible states we know NO GOOD or NO BAD. We know none of that. This is why our parents must teach us to do good and rebuke the bad. The bible states this!

So if we know NO GOOD or BAD. How are we born already with SIN in us? The so called "nature of sin" doesn't hit until your youth, agree?

Youth = puberty to adulthood. So this becomes our age of accountability. God said we have "evil in the heart of our youth", but never says children have evil in their hearts or minds.

(Children = fetus, infant, toddler, child)

So how is a child already born with sin? We are responsible for our own sins as well, not others, so how can we bear Adam's guilt? The bible states we're responsible for our own, we will be judged upon our own actions etc.

So the "inheritance" of Adam's sin in babies is wrong. The nature of it being there in the world, is right.

It's in a baby's nature to talk and walk right? But if I don't TEACH that nature, can't it be learned? NOPE! I've seen plenty of babies who cannot talk at the age of 5 and only comprehend simple demands and small answers. That's due to bad parenting, now if it was in the child's nature to AUTOMATICALLY walk and talk then it wouldn't need us.

The same idea applies with sin, the "nature of sin" is INDIRECTLY taught to us.

I only smoked cigarettes at 12-13 because my mother did. Indirectly was I taught to do so, no parent in their SANE mind would teach their children these "sinful" things.

I didn't come out as a baby ready to smoke a cig, but was taught indirectly.

All nature must be taught to us, no if and's or buts.

So to be born with sin is to take away free will and to make an excuse as to why you're a sinner.

 

[tri3w]

Reason is the faculty given to man to distinguish true emotion from false emotionalism, faith from fanaticism, imagination from fancy, a true vision from visionary illusion. ~ Bhagavad Gita

If god was any kind of god, I would think god would want man to seek truth for himself. As the scripture says, "even the elect to be deceived".

If God Was God............im quite Sure he would Already know they truth, Its Man Job to Search and Seek

 

[tri3w]

David is not saying he was born a sinner, which would have been an excuse for his sins in a Psalm which was clearly a Psalm of confession. He was confessing the great extent and guilt of the sin he had committed. He broke out in the language of strong feeling and emotion, the language of figure and symbol, to express the level of his sin.

Psalms is FULL of figurative, symbolic speech.

Yes and No................. According to the Bible and Judeo-Christian Beliefs, Children r innocent, But innocent because they dont no any better. techincally, they r still under that "Curse" of Sin becuase of their parents...........Now as for, Predetermination The Bible Clearly states that man is given a Choice What Direcrtion U wanna Go with Ur Life; u could Follow the Rules Of The Lord, or u could ur life in within ur on devices. Either Way, he gives Consequnces for both. Now God Knows What The Choices we will make b4 hand, he said he knew us b4 he formed us in the womb.............either way, Nice thread Vibe86

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

If God Was God............im quite Sure he would Already know they truth, Its Man Job to Search and Seek

I understand, that's why I said what I said.

 

[VIBE]

Yes and No................. According to the Bible and Judeo-Christian Beliefs, Children r innocent, But innocent because they dont no any better. techincally, they r still under that "Curse" of Sin becuase of their parents...........Now as for, Predetermination The Bible Clearly states that man is given a Choice What Direcrtion U wanna Go with Ur Life; u could Follow the Rules Of The Lord, or u could ur life in within ur on devices. Either Way, he gives Consequnces for both. Now God Knows What The Choices we will make b4 hand, he said he knew us b4 he formed us in the womb.............either way, Nice thread Vibe86

If he did, it takes away from Free Will.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

If he did, it takes away from Free Will.

Freewill as in the freedom to choose or freewill as in the thing(mechanism) that allows you the freedom to choose?

 

[VIBE]

Freewill as in the freedom to choose or freewill as in the thing(mechanism) that allows you the freedom to choose?

That's like the same question? LOL

For anyone, especially DoU, read this article.

It's very long, 4 pages. But hey if you have some good time to read up, read this

http://www.thomastaylorministries.org/article_become_sinners_part1.htm

This is an absolutely amazing article. I really couldn't see anyone coming back at this.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

That's like the same question? LOL

For anyone, especially DoU, read this article.

It's very long, 4 pages. But hey if you have some good time to read up, read this

Definitely not the same question.

Freewill : the freedom to choose whatsoever one chooses

or

Freewill : the mechanism that enables one the ability to choose whatsoever one chooses

One implies there are no restrictions or conditions to my choices, which clearly is not true as people will supposedly go to hell for choosing the "wrong" thing.

The other implies the "power" or "force" that allows me the option to choose in the first place.

Without the second, I could not do the first. The second is free, the first is not.

 

[DoUwant2go2Heaven]

Okay, so you don't believe in pre-destination. Good.

So if we're born with sin, we have no option but TO sin. Correct? It's already in us so we don't have a choice.

See, the bible states otherwise.

The bible states we know NO GOOD or NO BAD. We know none of that. This is why our parents must teach us to do good and rebuke the bad. The bible states this!

So if we know NO GOOD or BAD. How are we born already with SIN in us? The so called "nature of sin" doesn't hit until your youth, agree?

Youth = puberty to adulthood. So this becomes our age of accountability. God said we have "evil in the heart of our youth", but never says children have evil in their hearts or minds.

(Children = fetus, infant, toddler, child)

So how is a child already born with sin? We are responsible for our own sins as well, not others, so how can we bear Adam's guilt? The bible states we're responsible for our own, we will be judged upon our own actions etc.

So the "inheritance" of Adam's sin in babies is wrong. The nature of it being there in the world, is right.

It's in a baby's nature to talk and walk right? But if I don't TEACH that nature, can't it be learned? NOPE! I've seen plenty of babies who cannot talk at the age of 5 and only comprehend simple demands and small answers. That's due to bad parenting, now if it was in the child's nature to AUTOMATICALLY walk and talk then it wouldn't need us.

The same idea applies with sin, the "nature of sin" is INDIRECTLY taught to us.

I only smoked cigarettes at 12-13 because my mother did. Indirectly was I taught to do so, no parent in their SANE mind would teach their children these "sinful" things.

I didn't come out as a baby ready to smoke a cig, but was taught indirectly.

All nature must be taught to us, no if and's or buts.

So to be born with sin is to take away free will and to make an excuse as to why you're a sinner.

Vibe I respect your efforts at trying to explain your position, but God clearly states otherwise in His word.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

Does God mean what He says and says what He means? If He does, what does "all" mean in the passage above?


"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12

Again, is God a liar? What does God mean when He says "all"?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

If thats not enough, how bout the passage above? if the wages of sin is death why are babies not exempt, since they don't have a sin nature according to you?

I mean really though this is futile. So i don't even want a rebuttal. I don't want to get caught up in this pointless conversation. I'm going to believe the Bible no matter what. These side debates are senseless. They cause strife and division. No matter what position you take, we can all agree that we are sinners and we all need a Savior. We need to exalt and preach Jesus Christ. He is the one who came to redeem us. Forget about this other nonsense. Lets preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins. We need Him my brother and we need to tell others about Him. God bless.

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Definitely not the same question.

Freewill : the freedom to choose whatsoever one chooses

or

Freewill : the mechanism that enables one the ability to choose whatsoever one chooses

One implies there are no restrictions or conditions to my choices, which clearly is not true as people will supposedly go to hell for choosing the "wrong" thing.

The other implies the "power" or "force" that allows me the option to choose in the first place.

Without the second, I could not do the first. The second is free, the first is not.

Is was by the will of god that everything was created. God's will cannot be captured, contained or killed. It is the "free-est" thing that could exist. This freedom of will has been extended to us, so that we may willfully experience the world. It is what allows me to want a coffee even if I am physically unable to have one. Someone cannot come up and steal(capture) my will to want a coffee even though they can come up and steal my actual coffee. They couldn't put me in a box and contain my will to want a coffee, they could even kill my body and still not touch my will to want a coffee. This is the free will in which I am referring to in the second sense. Freewill/the freedom of the will and choices are two different things, often times confused.

 

[VIBE]

Vibe I respect your efforts at trying to explain your position, but God clearly states otherwise in His word.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

Does God mean what He says and says what He means? If He does, what does "all" mean in the passage above?



"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12

Again, is God a liar? What does God mean when He says "all"?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

If thats not enough, how bout the passage above? if the wages of sin is death why are babies not exempt, since they don't have a sin nature according to you?

I mean really though this is futile. So i don't even want a rebuttal. I don't want to get caught up in this pointless conversation. I'm going to believe the Bible no matter what. These side debates are senseless. They cause strife and division. No matter what position you take, we can all agree that we are sinners and we all need a Savior. We need to exalt and preach Jesus Christ. He is the one who came to redeem us. Forget about this other nonsense. Lets preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins. We need Him my brother and we need to tell others about Him. God bless.

Thing is, I'll never deny we all sinned. But the bible is clear on the accountability.

If we are evil in our youth, then our youth is the start of our accountability. Children were never said to be evil or sinners. All mankind is all who are able to comprehend, to understand and to grasp the concept of sin.

John 9:41



Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Can we agree that a baby/child is blind? Yes, we can. It's clear from then on.

 

[tri3w]

If he did, it takes away from Free Will.

but it dosent..............how could he be an All powerfull Being Yet not know What decisons we gonna make in our Lives???

 

[supaman4321]

This is something I found myself thinking about while reading Qur'an and I think this is the major difference behind all of the rationale of Muslims and Christians

According to Christians we are born sinners at birth which to me is the same as a defective car straight from the manufacturing plant, it was created with it's defects, it CANNOT change or overcome them (accept through that "jesus" loophole)

Now if this is the case and we are born sinners how can we be held accountable for any of our actions? If you're sold a car with defects you can't be mad when something goes wrong with it because it was screwed up to begin with correct?

The difference with Islam is instead of being born sinners, Islam teaches that we are born Muslim, everybody at birth is in complete submission to God you can't even wipe or feed yourself and i'm pretty sure that all of the major functions of your body occur without the brain having to tell them to do it every single time (heart beat now, heart beat now, heart beat now, etc..) we are sinless, the actions of our parents have no bearing on us, and we are good people by nature.

That makes a lot more sense to me than a supposed perfect and and in-erring god making something that is supposed to be the supreme testament to his power and abilities but it ends up being inherently bad and evil? what does that in turn say about the reasoning and ability of the god that created it? Also it states in the Qur'an (and Bible) that no man will have to bear the burden of another's sin so knowing that plus the idea of free-will and accountability I don't see HOW we could be born with sin.

No "Original Sin" no need for a "resurrection"

Wa Alaikum

 

[VIBE]

No "Original Sin" no need for a "resurrection"

Wa Alaikum

There was a need for a resurrection though, we were all made UPRIGHT but have gone in search of worldly things, sinful things.

So what can we do to forgive those sinful things we've committed? Jesus was brought to take the burden of our sins and cleanse us from them.

So yes, there still is a need for Jesus. Because we ALL go astray, not one of us is perfect.

 

[And Step]

No. This is bullshit made up by religious dickheads, to make people feel guilty and justify keeping them emotional and mental shackles.

The Catholic church made a mint off of selling indulgences because of this very false concept. There are so many contradictory quotes in the Bible that smash this bogus argument.

This bogus doctrine handcuffs people mentally and kills the desire to attain perfection.

What kind of fool God, would create you with a sinful nature, then punish you for the way he created you?

 

[nycest_1]

It would have to be Satan, period. No other. That's the ORIGINAL ORIGINAL sin.

The original sin for mankind would be Adam, but why? Why not Eve. Man was supposed to rule over everything, so all in all it was Adams responsibility.

but if the sins of the father are passed to the son, that would mean that sin would fall upon the creator of sin not the one who commited it.

u leave a handgun around a kid or retard and they use it its not really their fault for anyone that gets hurt its yours.

its a loophole in the writing but nothing to be taken too literral. the main message is if you don't commit to a life of god ur pretty much destined to fuck up.

which is true because someone who never learns any rules in any society (whichever you choose to follow) will violate the rules of that society inadvertantly

 

[BiblicalAtheist]

Sin - to err, to miss the mark

A lot of this would make a lot more sense if used the proper meaning of the word.

 

[kids in america_]

“The bible” teaches that ‘sin’ comes from or else originates from within the ‘heart’ [human mind]. “The bible” is quite clear about the sinful inclinations within man.

Matthew 5:16:20 (this is from the New Revised Standard Version) reads:

Mat 15:16 Then he said, "Are you also still without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?
Mat 15:18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds FROM THE HEART, and this is what defiles.
Mat 15:19 For out of THE HEART come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.
Mat 15:20 These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile."

Jesus states as a fact, that the ‘heart’ [human mind] is indeed a source for all evil thoughts and 'sins'.

 

[kids in america_]

'The bible' does not teach that man has a 'free will'. 'Free will' meaning' as the power of making free choices that are not determined by "prior causes" or are unconstrained by "external circumstances" or by an agency such as fate, divine intervention or divine will.