As a christian, is there a such thing as putting too much emphasis on christ?
The Lonious Monk
New member
DoU is not addressing the question at all. I already posted a version where Jesus himself rebuked someone for giving him the slightest of praises. The fact of the matter is that in life Jesus preached that all praise should be delivered to God. So who are you going to obey Jesus or a follower that may or may not be completely capturing Jesus' teachings?
Take Luke 11:
1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]' "
This is basically Jesus' instructions on how to pray. Nowhere does he say to include himself. The whole prayer is directed to the "Father." Praying to Jesus was never something he condoned in life or after his death. That is strictly something that those who came after him pushed. So the question becomes, whose instructions are you going to follow, Jesus', his followers, or someone like Paul who never even met him. I don't think there is anything wrong with speaking to Jesus or showing him due respect, however, I don't think its right to raise him to the level of God. He always showed a higher reverence to God, so as his followers, shouldn't we do the same.
Take Luke 11:
1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
And lead us not into temptation.[d]' "
This is basically Jesus' instructions on how to pray. Nowhere does he say to include himself. The whole prayer is directed to the "Father." Praying to Jesus was never something he condoned in life or after his death. That is strictly something that those who came after him pushed. So the question becomes, whose instructions are you going to follow, Jesus', his followers, or someone like Paul who never even met him. I don't think there is anything wrong with speaking to Jesus or showing him due respect, however, I don't think its right to raise him to the level of God. He always showed a higher reverence to God, so as his followers, shouldn't we do the same.
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The True Flesh
New member
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. James 1:8
Y'all better be careful, I'm seeing a lot of guys set themselves up for exposure.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:22-23
^^^^^This right here is the definitive answer to the original question posed in this thread.
Accept it or reject it.......there's no opposition to THE TRUTH.
PEACE
Y'all better be careful, I'm seeing a lot of guys set themselves up for exposure.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:22-23
^^^^^This right here is the definitive answer to the original question posed in this thread.
Accept it or reject it.......there's no opposition to THE TRUTH.
PEACE
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The True Flesh;913213 said:
To me John 5:22-23 illustrates the fact that the Father and the Son are not the same entity but are linked. You cant act like Yeshua is the only person in the Bible called a Son of God.
Ex. 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:
This implies the title of Son being applied to a nation. The specific term firstborn implies that Israel is not the only son. To identify a firstborn son, there has to be a second and son and so forth.
Isa. 33:22 For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.
Also, expand your understanding to what judgement actually is.
shaphat
שָׁפַט
1) to judge, govern, vindicate, punish
a) (Qal)
1) to act as law-giver or judge or governor (of God, man)
a) to rule, govern, judge
2) to decide controversy (of God, man)
3) to execute judgment
a) discriminating (of man)
b) vindicating
c) condemning and punishing
d) at theophanic advent for final judgment
b) (Niphal)
1) to enter into controversy, plead, have controversy together
2) to be judged
c) (Poel) judge, opponent-at-law (participle)
To judge can mean to condemn, but thats not the only implication of the original word used.
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alissowack
New member
PUPU_IZ_DRO;907555 said:
There is a complexity to this for it is the belief that Jesus is also God but that is another story. Now I don't believe it is necessarily over-emphasizing. I believe it is more of a misuse of Jesus's name. Some people think that because they are in church they have a "right" to say Jesus or God anytime they please and show no regard to their own integrity.
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The Lonious Monk
New member
The True Flesh;913213 said:
Do you guys actually understand the question? It's not asking whether or not Jesus should be honored. It's asking whether or not too much emphasis is put on him by Christians. You and DoU keep throwing up these scriptures that don't address the issue at all. You still have yet to provide a response for what I put. If Jesus is supposed to be worshipped on the same level as God, why did he rebuke someone for praising him and deflect all praise to the Father. If Jesus intended for people to worship and praise him, why didn't he ever say that instead of always referring everyone to the goodness of God. The fact is, you can't show one place in the Bible where Jesus accepts or says he should be praised or worshipped in the same vein. That doesn't come until well after Jesus is dead, ressurected, and gone. As God's divine messenger and the connection to the Father, of course Jesus should be honored and praised. The question is whether or not that praise goes a little overboard.
My opinion is that it does. Christians put Jesus and God on the same level. However, even if you believe that they make up the divine trinity, there is still no doubt that God is higher in that trinity than Jesus or the Holy Spirit. This should be without question given all the reverence Jesus showed God. Hell, Jesus begged and pleaded to God more than once in the Bible. Would you ever plead with someone who is your equal?
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the lonious monk;914187 said:
bruh... Thank you!
Dam, it took alllllllll of this for someone to relize what i was asking!!!
Im guilty of doing what my thread is about and i just wanted 2 get a better understanding...
I neva said anythin bout no going through jesus 2 get to god
i just want to know (point blank), its is a sin/wrong to pray to and praise jesus without ackowledgin god the father
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tri3w;910263 said:
i'll explain it like this...
Water - god
ice - jesus
steam - holy sprit
they are the same, but different types/forms of the same thing of course..
All with different purposes but same agenda.
But jesus himself, does not know when the world will end.. Only god
jesus also that that noone is good but the father...
But jesus also said that him and the father are one... Hince my example
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supaman4321
New member
tri3w;910263 said:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
John 10: 23 - 30
Let's talk a look at the context without singling one sentence out to try and make a point and see what it says, almost RIGHT before his supposed claim of divinity he says that God is greater than all (Allahu Akbar) so it can't mean they are one in essence but one in purpose. But, for the sake of argument let's assume that he is saying he's God, how do you explain this verse....
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
John 17:20-22
Who knows how many gods there would be if we try to apply the same logic to this verse!
Salaam
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supaman4321
New member
PUPU_IZ_DRO;915012 said:
how does that analogy work then? How can one's purpose be different from their agenda are the words not correlated? Another reason why this doesn't make sense to me is because they may have different forms but they're all the same chemically, water, ice, and steam are all liquid. I would see the point if water was a liquid, ice was dry, and steam was acidic but the case could be made that they were all the same but it can't because it's impossible.
I read a quote somewhere i can't remember where but a man was trying to describe the trinity and he saw three of the same car being driven by three different men on the road and he claimed that was a perfect example but the man he was explaining it to corrected him and told him that you would need three DIFFERENT cars being simultaneously driven by the same man which would be the correct analogy. Holla at me when you see that.
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supaman4321;915887 said:
God couldnt die for the sins of the world.. but Jesus could, he is the savior
God is the creator of all things (not Jesus)
The holy sprint is the word of God (bible)
These three beings serve a different purposes with the same agenda to save the people in the world...
ie... ya breaks, gas pedal, steering wheel are all served for a different perpose but the same agenda (which is to allow you to drive that car)
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kids in america_
New member
..........?
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PUPU_IZ_DRO;915012 said:
Soooo u just explian that there is seperation, yet there is still Coninuty, which is basiocly they idea in the Trinty..........What u jsut explained actually gives Validation to the "WHole" Trinity Idea.............God in Three person............Personally, If u read the stories, pay attention to the themes I believe that His Goal was to bring Humanity Closer to the Father..........it wasnt to bring Glory to himself, that y he would seeming Defer that, But When somebody "Realized" who he was, he acknowleged them
I alwasy Like to get differnet perspectives on this though.............
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kids in america_
New member
PUPU_IZ_DRO;915012 said:
.............
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tri3w;916074 said:
Yes, that was the purpose of Jesus... he is the savior, he wants us 2 live forever, not perish... God is in Jesus thats why people say they are one, but at the same time, God left Jesus for a moment so that he could die "father why have you forsaken me"....
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konceptjones
New member
I think the Baha'i way of looking at the prophets of God is best (this includes Yeshua (PBUH))
... God is likened to the sun because He is the unique source of life in the universe in the same way that the physical sun is the unique source of all physical life on earth. The spirit and attributes of God are the rays of this sun and the individual Manifestation is like a perfect mirror. If there are several mirrors all turned toward the same sun, that unique sun is reflected in each mirror. Yet the individual mirrors are different, each having been made in its own form and distinct from any other.
In the same way, each Prophet is a distinct individual being, but the spirit and attributes of God reflected in Each are the same. If you point a mirror at the sun, and you see the image of the sun, you do not mistake it for being the actual sun, only a reflection of it. This is how best to explain God's prophets: A mirror reflection of God in man, but still only a reflection.
... God is likened to the sun because He is the unique source of life in the universe in the same way that the physical sun is the unique source of all physical life on earth. The spirit and attributes of God are the rays of this sun and the individual Manifestation is like a perfect mirror. If there are several mirrors all turned toward the same sun, that unique sun is reflected in each mirror. Yet the individual mirrors are different, each having been made in its own form and distinct from any other.
In the same way, each Prophet is a distinct individual being, but the spirit and attributes of God reflected in Each are the same. If you point a mirror at the sun, and you see the image of the sun, you do not mistake it for being the actual sun, only a reflection of it. This is how best to explain God's prophets: A mirror reflection of God in man, but still only a reflection.
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The True Flesh
New member
judahxulu;913376 said:
What about this? (please don't ignore)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7
Are you going to tell me this refers to Israel as a nation too? using such terminology as Prince of Peace and everlasting Father....... it would be a tough sale yahmean.
PEACE
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The True Flesh;920713 said:
Who is the "us"? Christianity didn't exist in the days of Isaiah and I dont think he was to shy about naming names.Also, the word "son" does not neccesarily refer to an individualhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria="son"&t=KJV&page=49
Neither does "child' http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3206&t=KJV
The Bible also says the "the scepter shall never pass from Judah". Sounds more like someone sent to regather israel than what folks try to paint Yeshua to be. However one interprets the verses you provided it still doesn't negate the fact that there would never be just one singular Messiah (anointed personage). Also, it does not change the fact that salvation is not of man. Yeshua, like many anointed personages before and after were under direct command of the Most High, but at the end of the day there is but one Creator.
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supaman4321
New member
PUPU_IZ_DRO;916011 said:
If everything was supposedly created through Jesus wouldn't he be the creator or at least co-creator of all things as well though? The car analogy doesn't work because there are just way too many pieces to try to account for, Who's the engine in this tryst? Muffler? Wheels? Rims? You can't try to explain the trinity with something you could see in nature because...it isn't natural. Also I would think that let's say a steering wheel wouldn't have an "agenda" as the word is defined but it does have a purpose which would be like you stated to allow the car to be driven. But then you run into things that have purposes but aren't necessary or vital like take a muffler for example, we've all heard a car with no muffler then may be loud but doesn't stop the car from accelerating or stopping so how would that fit into the analogy?
I also like how you completely disregarded the way I told you the analogy would need to be for it to be applicable to a trinity, that's because you'll NEVER see one man driving three cars simultaneously, there's just no logical way to explain it i don't feel but to each his own.
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The True Flesh
New member
judahxulu;920810 said:
Way to dance around the question. You dissected the use of the words "us" and "child" but not the specific ones that I cited that point to this being an individual ie: everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.
The part about establishing it with judgement and justice HENCEFORTH EVEN FOR EVER.......sounds like a "singular" Messiah to me.
PEACE
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